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View Poll Results: Byukugan or sharingan?
Byukugan 407 35.51%
Sharingan 647 56.46%
Neither 92 8.03%
Voters: 1146. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-06-01, 21:11   Link #301
Narutto Kyuubi
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Cool

lets see al that fancy genjutsu work on a blind ninja, sasuke vs the blindman. the you dont have to worry about the genjutsu.
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Old 2004-06-01, 21:30   Link #302
Naruto714
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Quote:
Quote:
A few things...
1) I think Neji was 100% accurate in his reading of expressions. He didn't read from Naruto's face that Naruto was definitely going to lose. That came from his overconfidence and underestimation of raw abilities. But he definitely did read that (iirc) Naruto was not overconfident in himself. I think everyone believes in the accuracy of that statement.
Naruto prooved that Neji's reading abilities wasn't 100% accurate when he fooled him, making him believe that the real him didn't dare to fight with the others clones at close range.
Actually Neji didn't get that by reading facial expressions he asumed that the clone stating behind was the real Naruto b/c he wouldn't want to get hit. He never read his face to determine that.


Also to be logical the only members of the Uchiha clan left is Itachi and Sasuke while the Hyuuga clan has much more people and many are quite powerful so clan on clan Hyuuga would win

I also said
Quote:
I have a question do you think that Itachi at the age of 13 (when he wiped out his clan) could have wiped out they Hyuuga clan at that age.

I mean with his level of skill with the Sharingan against the Hyuuga clan

I would say no because Itachi is really the only one that seemed that strong during the flash back. Everyone else just kinda got hit and died. While Kakashi seemed to put up an okay fight for a jounin I believe that if there was a village of strong people they could have resisted.

Itachi is the only person as of now that can do the Mange Sharingan while Neji while strong doesn't appear to overwhelm everyone else that much like Hinata who was considered weak put up a good fight

Kakashi said that Sasuke couldn't beat Neji at his level and said Byakugan is better in insight than the Sharingan

All in all we shouldn't use Itachi who was able to the defeat the whole clan versus a decently powerfall clan

So in conclusion overall the Sharingan can be better as we see with Itachi but using the Byakugan to its full potential like Neji did with 64 Hands and Heintan (sp) the Byakugan is easier to use/inherit
So do you think that Itachi at age 13 could beat up the Hyuuga clan

I said no b/c the Sharingan while capable of appearing in Uchiha members isn't that likely while the Byakugan appears in almost all
(since we know that they seal up the lower members White Eye with the seal)
So the ratio is blanced more in the Hyuuga clan unlike in the Uchiha clan were one person (Itachi) got sickenly powerful
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Old 2004-06-01, 22:53   Link #303
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naruto714
Also to be logical the only members of the Uchiha clan left is Itachi and Sasuke while the Hyuuga clan has much more people and many are quite powerful so clan on clan Hyuuga would win
Sorry, that is not an argument. We're not discussing an all-Hyuuga vs. all-Uchiha fight here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naruto714
So do you think that Itachi at age 13 could beat up the Hyuuga clan

I said no b/c the Sharingan while capable of appearing in Uchiha members isn't that likely while the Byakugan appears in almost all
(since we know that they seal up the lower members White Eye with the seal)
So the ratio is blanced more in the Hyuuga clan unlike in the Uchiha clan were one person (Itachi) got sickenly powerful
See above. This thread isn't about whether or not Itachi can defeat a clan of Hyuuga.

Were you here when we all pretty much agreed that Itachi can't be the only genius to come out of Uchiha in the lifetime of the entire clan? If not, well....we all agreed that. Itachi can't have made a name for the entire clan by himself - it would just be the name of Itachi that would be feared.
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Old 2004-06-02, 10:00   Link #304
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I would definitely choose the Byukugan.
  1. the Byukugan can see miles ahead.... need that ability to avoid unneccessary troubles
  2. to see through objects and obstacles to check if there is anyone hiding around or if I wanna find where my opponent is hiding
  3. I can tell if that person has done a replacement or clone technique because of the difference in chakra and stuff. This means I don't have to waste my shurikens or other ninja tools on the decoys
  4. I always have a thing for absolute defense stuff...
  5. Ability to control chakra flow.... how cool is that? I can even use it to increase the flow on myself
  6. The speed that comes with being a Hyuuga (hmm I'm not too sure about this but it does seem so).

About the Sharingan's genjutsus... don't think there's much the Byukugan can do against that. I just figured that having Sharingan makes one a Jack of all trades but a Master of none.... unless ur a super genius like Neji is, to learn Hyuuga's secret techniques on his own. At least Sasuke had tutors like Kakashi and Oro to help him advance his abilities.
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Old 2004-06-02, 10:39   Link #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naruto714
Actually Neji didn't get that by reading facial expressions he asumed that the clone stating behind was the real Naruto b/c he wouldn't want to get hit. He never read his face to determine that.
Neji didn't read the face only, he read the body language, it's all about the interpretation of the little unconscious details which betrays your mind through your whole body (such as Hinata's eyes, how she touched her lips, how she moved her arms, the way she stood, etc.)
The clone that Neji thought was Naruto wasn't just standing away doing nothing, as Neji said, it was the one who attacked the least.

Through that, he assumed that Naruto feared the Jyuken style whereas Naruto was attacking him with everything he had since the beginning of the fight along with his clones.

Once again, to see all the informations around you doesn't mean that you will interpret them correctly.

Quote:
Also to be logical the only members of the Uchiha clan left is Itachi and Sasuke while the Hyuuga clan has much more people and many are quite powerful so clan on clan Hyuuga would win

I also said
[...]
So do you think that Itachi at age 13 could beat up the Hyuuga clan

I said no b/c the Sharingan while capable of appearing in Uchiha members isn't that likely while the Byakugan appears in almost all
(since we know that they seal up the lower members White Eye with the seal)
So the ratio is blanced more in the Hyuuga clan unlike in the Uchiha clan were one person (Itachi) got sickenly powerful

As Raikage said, I didn't answer that firstly because it wasn't the subject of this thread but whatever.

If you have read my previsou posts, you know that I think that the Hyuaga isn't immunized against the Tsukiyomi and his kind and that this jutsu can be used against several targets at once.
The answer is pretty obvious after that no?

But okey for the sake of this point let's forget about the Tsukiyomi for the moment.
Yes I think that Itachi would have been able to obliterate the Hyuga clan in the same way as he did against the Uchiha.

The reasons are manifold :
-The surprise attack element.
-Due to the organization of the Hyuga, the more experienced ninjas are those who have inherited the less of their bloodline, ie the Branch family who represents the majority of the clan (or at least 50%, but there isn't more leaders than directed).
-Jounin level ninja are very rare, Konoha as the biggest hidden village seems to have some dozens of them (the manga never showed Hyuga jounins in the jounin meeting with the 3rd btw but I assume there must be some jounins in the Hyuga).
-A clan isn't composed of hundreds of people.

Given that, the large majority of Hyuga are genin and chuunin level, you saw already what are the chuunins against a single jounin and what are jounins in front of Itachi, ie not that much.
For Hiashi, the deadliest ninja of the Hyuga and the only one who knew the Kaiten and who can be somewhat a threat, an Amaterasu glance would be enough to obliterate him into less than ashes.

Most of these reason can be applicated to the Uchiha too, the only question is how Itachi took care of the other Sharingan masters.
Sarcateak came with an interesting theory about that, saying that the first thing that Itachi did could have been to trap all of them together into a fight of will inside his Tsukiyomi and then finished the rest of the clan when he had crushed their minds.
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Old 2004-06-02, 11:07   Link #306
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Originally Posted by Hunter
Most of these reason can be applicated to the Uchiha too, the only question is how Itachi took care of the other Sharingan masters.
Sarcateak came with an interesting theory about that, saying that the first thing that Itachi did could have been to trap all of them together into a fight of will inside his Tsukiyomi and then finished the rest of the clan when he had crushed their minds.
This means Sarcasteak=Kishimoto. point! ROFL good theory though.
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Old 2004-06-02, 15:37   Link #307
Explosion of Youth
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Originally Posted by Shinobi_Mitsuki
I would definitely choose the Byukugan.
  1. the Byukugan can see miles ahead.... need that ability to avoid unneccessary troubles
  2. to see through objects and obstacles to check if there is anyone hiding around or if I wanna find where my opponent is hiding
  3. I can tell if that person has done a replacement or clone technique because of the difference in chakra and stuff. This means I don't have to waste my shurikens or other ninja tools on the decoys
  4. I always have a thing for absolute defense stuff...
  5. Ability to control chakra flow.... how cool is that? I can even use it to increase the flow on myself
  6. The speed that comes with being a Hyuuga (hmm I'm not too sure about this but it does seem so).

About the Sharingan's genjutsus... don't think there's much the Byukugan can do against that. I just figured that having Sharingan makes one a Jack of all trades but a Master of none.... unless ur a super genius like Neji is, to learn Hyuuga's secret techniques on his own. At least Sasuke had tutors like Kakashi and Oro to help him advance his abilities.
Byakugan wont give u half of those. But Jyuuken will and so will being a Hyuuga. There is also no speed that comes with being a hyuuga.
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Old 2004-06-02, 16:13   Link #308
nh1
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Originally Posted by Explosion of Youth
There is also no speed that comes with being a hyuuga.
Why not? No natural speed, but it seems all bloodline users so far have all had an incredible speed at an early age without excessive training like Lee.
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Old 2004-06-02, 16:49   Link #309
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Originally Posted by nh1
Why not? No natural speed, but it seems all bloodline users so far have all had an incredible speed at an early age without excessive training like Lee.
Remember that both Sasuke and Neji are prodigies whereas Lee has no-talent except to open the Gates

And even with that, if Neji would have been able to gain this kind of speed easily, he would have done it.
After all, speed is one of the main point of his training.
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Old 2004-06-02, 16:52   Link #310
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Originally Posted by Hunter
And even with that, if Neji would have been able to gain this kind of speed easily, he would have done it.
After all, speed is one of the main point of his training.
Yup, so I'm thinking he has it now and that he has had it since he was presented in the series. That he didn't take as long as Sasuke to realize what potential he has
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Old 2004-06-02, 17:57   Link #311
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Originally Posted by nh1
Yup, so I'm thinking he has it now and that he has had it since he was presented in the series. That he didn't take as long as Sasuke to realize what potential he has
Nah, at the beginning, he was clearly under Lee and Sasuke when it's matter of max speed, but that doesn't count much because with his Byakugan, you can't lost him with your speed, he will always know where you are.

In the other hand, I wouldn't bet about his actual level.
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-06-02, 18:51   Link #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Nah, at the beginning, he was clearly under Lee and Sasuke when it's matter of max speed, but that doesn't count much because with his Byakugan, you can't lost him with your speed, he will always know where you are.

In the other hand, I wouldn't bet about his actual level.
Spoiler:

But then again you have to think, everyone he's fought thus far, he's had no reason to use high speed like Lee and Sasuke, it wouldn't work on Spiderboy, since most of the time, Neji was on the defensive side, either that or he was in bondage When he fought Hinata, he was toying with her.......and trying to kill her, when he fought Naruto, he was being arrogant, but was still able to own Naruto, then when Naruto used Kyuubi's chakra, and gained speed, it didn't phase Neji, he was still able to block and parry Naruto's attacks

Remember Lee's words, even if you can see it (him and his speed) it's useless if your body can't react fast enough. Then we go to the Gaara + Lee fight, when Lee says "Neji, I was saving this technique for you, but I'll allow you to see it."

If Neji wasn't as fast as Lee and Sasuke, then Lee would have no reason to say that, since he could have just beat Neji by taking his weights off. Then when he did take his weights off, Neji didn't even flinch, I'm thinking he's fought Lee several times with his weights off, I mean if Lee's main goal is to beat Neji, why limit yourself by having on weights?

Spoiler:


For those saying Neji has no insight into the future at all

divination. noun [see Types of Divination.]


1. The supposed insight into the future or the unknown gained by supernatural means. 2. A skilful and accurate forecast.

astrology. noun

The study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as an influence on human affairs.

Last edited by Ke0; 2004-06-02 at 22:25.
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Old 2004-06-02, 20:27   Link #313
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Ke0
Remember Lee's words, even if you can see it (him and his speed) it's useless if your body can't react fast enough. Then we go to the Gaara + Lee fight, when Lee says "Neji, I was saving this technique for you, but I'll allow you to see it."
Indeed, but there is a difference between being slower and being completely outclassed by an opponent.
Gai's faster than Kakashi for example, but not enough to crush him with speed alone at the contrary to the first encounter Lee vs. Sasuke.

The jutsu that Lee was saving to beat Neji was the insane speed allowed by the Gates, not his regular high speed without the weights because very high speed< high speed + Byakugan.
Lee as a pure Taijutsu user needs to be so fast that Neji couldn't even react to his speed, and we saw that Neji has some insane reflexes

And the character data book states that Neji's under the speed of Lee and Sasuke (then again the speed comparison of the book are somewhat weird sometimes).

Gai did try to teach to open the Gates to Neji and Ten-Ten, but Lee was the only one to succeed.

Then no, Neji hasn't insight into the future, if it was the case his match would have been completely different, the Hakkeshou or Bagua Zhang in chinese is just a real Chinese internal martial art, one of the main styles of Tai-Chi.

Oh and don't forget the spoiler tag :/
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Old 2004-06-02, 20:57   Link #314
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Originally Posted by Hunter
Indeed, but there is a difference between being slower and being completely outclassed by an opponent.
Gai's faster than Kakashi for example, but not enough to crush him with speed alone at the contrary to the first encounter Lee vs. Sasuke.
I agree with that

Quote:
The jutsu that Lee was saving to beat Neji was the insane speed allowed by the Gates, not his regular high speed without the weights because very high speed< high speed + Byakugan.
Lee as a pure Taijutsu user needs to be so fast that Neji couldn't even react to his speed, and we saw that Neji has some insane reflexes
I never said that Lee's technique he was saving for Neji was him taking off his weights, I said it was Gate Opening and and Ura Renge, I think you misread my post.

Quote:
And the character data book states that Neji's under the speed of Lee and Sasuke (then again the speed comparison of the book are somewhat weird sometimes).
There's a Naruto flash site that has more info on the book (possibly the newest one?) That shows otherwise, and I'm frantically trying to find it

Quote:
Gai did try to teach to open the Gates to Neji and Ten-Ten, but Lee was the only one to succeed.
I must of looked over this, I've read the manga up to 217, so could you tell me which one chap he did try to teach them?

Quote:
Then no, Neji hasn't insight into the future, if it was the case his match would have been completely different, the Hakkeshou or Bagua Zhang in chinese is just a real Chinese internal martial art, one of the main styles of Tai-Chi.
Hakkeshou in Japanese literally translates into eight trigrams palm (Pa Kua Zhang) Hence why I said in another post that Neji and the Hyuga clan, most likely have 8 ultimate attacks, but we've only seen 2.

Jyuken which means gentle or internal fist. Though it's not the actual fighting style, just the style's name. Pa Kua Zhang would probably be the style, and would fit nicely about with my belief that there are 8 Ultimate attacks.. The act of seeing or supposedly seeing into the future or having future insight (which IS different from seeing into the future) is Divination.

Quote:
Oh and don't forget the spoiler tag :/
Bleh I always forget those

Last edited by Ke0; 2004-06-02 at 23:06.
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Old 2004-06-02, 22:04   Link #315
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Ke0
I never said that Lee's technique he was saving for Neji was him taking off his weights, I said it was Gate Opening and and Ura Renge, I think you misread my post.
No you miss my point, the two first paragraphs worked together
I was showing you that it wasn't because Lee's faster than Neji than he can beat him just by withdrawing his weight.
He's faster but not enough for that.

Quote:
There's a Naruto flash site that has more info on the book (possibly the newest one?) That shows otherwise, and I'm frantically trying to find it
No, there is only two special books, they both stop at the beginning of the war between Konoha and the Sound/Sand, a site about the books can't have more info than the books themself ^^

Quote:
I must of looked over this, I've read the manga up to 217, so could you tell me which one chap he did try to teach them?
I don't remember the exact chapter, it was during the fight Lee vs. Dosu, just before Lee used the Lotus (so volume 6?), there is a flashback about when Lee succeed for the first time to use it whereas neither Neji not Ten-Ten were unable to do so.

Quote:
Hakkeshou in Japanese literally translates into eight trigrams palm (Pa Kua Zhang) Hence why I said in another post that Neji and the Hyuga clan, most likely have 8 ultimate attacks, but we've only seen 2.
I know, the Hakkeshou or Bagua Zhang is directly related to the figures (trigrams and hexagrams) and circular moves of the famous traditional Chinese book IChing or Yi Jing (the Book of Changes), not because it's related to divination.

I don't really think that there are 6 others secret moves (there can be more or less of none of them for that matters), neither the Kaiten nor the 64 hands have something to do with one of the 8 signs of the Hakke in particular.

But well, it's always possible, as possible as a 3rd Taijutsu move involving ligthning (I don't think so) and an ultimate and most powerful attack named Izanagi (the god who created Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi from his eyes) for the Uchiha.

Who knows?

Quote:
Bleh I always forget those
Well that's too bad for you but edit your post, it would be stupid to be banned for that and even more stupid to spoil people who doesn't read the manga.
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Old 2004-06-02, 22:22   Link #316
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Originally Posted by Hunter
No you miss my point, the two first paragraphs worked together
I was showing you that it wasn't because Lee's faster than Neji than he can beat him just by withdrawing his weight.
He's faster but not enough for that.
Got ya



Quote:
No, there is only two special books, they both stop at the beginning of the war between Konoha and the Sound/Sand, a site about the books can't have more info than the books themself ^^
Oh, didn't know that



[quote]I don't remember the exact chapter, it was during the fight Lee vs. Dosu, just before Lee used the Lotus (so volume 6?), there is a flashback about when Lee succeed for the first time to use it whereas neither Neji not Ten-Ten were unable to do so.[/quote[

I'll look around that timeframe

Quote:
I know, the Hakkeshou or Bagua Zhang is directly related to the figures (trigrams and hexagrams) and circular moves of the famous traditional Chinese book IChing or Yi Jing (the Book of Changes), not because it's related to divination.
I never said it was related to Divination, I just merely gave an explanation to what exactly Divination is. I was trying to say that Hakkeshou isn't divination, I was saying Hakkeshou would probably be 8 deadly moves of the Hyuga, seeing as Japanese Gods are 3 deadly attacks for the Uchiha clan.

Quote:
I don't really think that there are 6 others secret moves (there can be more or less of none of them for that matters), neither the Kaiten nor the 64 hands have something to do with one of the 8 signs of the Hakke in particular.
See above, I know neither really have anything to do wth the 8 signs, but as I said, They could seeing as Gods are depictied as the Uchiha's 3 best attacks, Kishimoto pretty much takes things out of their original context and changes them to suit the need of his anime, but yet at the same time, in some way keeping their original purpose for lack of better words

Quote:
But well, it's always possible, as possible as a 3rd Taijutsu move involving ligthning (I don't think so) and an ultimate and most powerful attack named Izanagi (the god who created Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi from his eyes) for the Uchiha.

Who knows?
see above haha



Quote:
Well that's too bad for you but edit your post, it would be stupid to be banned for that and even more stupid to spoil people who doesn't read the manga.
Might as well
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Old 2004-06-02, 22:42   Link #317
raikage
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Originally Posted by Explosion of Youth
Byakugan wont give u half of those. But Jyuuken will and so will being a Hyuuga. There is also no speed that comes with being a hyuuga.
*rolls eyes* If you want to get THAT technical, then neither can a Uchiha copy jutsus on his own - someone ELSE has to show you those jutsus. Both these points are TECHINCALLY correct but kind of stupid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke0
There's a Naruto flash site that has more info on the book (possibly the newest one?) That shows otherwise, and I'm frantically trying to find it
No, there is only two special books, they both stop at the beginning of the war between Konoha and the Sound/Sand, a site about the books can't have more info than the books themself ^^
Not QUITE what he meant - there is a Flash site that has more information that sarcasteak provided in the small scans - but as far as I know the page is down.

EDIT: And as far as I know, Tai Chi is based in part on Pa Kua Chang and Xing Yi Chuan for inner style, and basic Shaolin Chuan for external style. Or at least that's what my teacher believes.
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Old 2004-06-02, 23:04   Link #318
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Originally Posted by raikage
*rolls eyes* If you want to get THAT technical, then neither can a Uchiha copy jutsus on his own - someone ELSE has to show you those jutsus. Both these points are TECHINCALLY correct but kind of stupid.




Not QUITE what he meant - there is a Flash site that has more information that sarcasteak provided in the small scans - but as far as I know the page is down.

EDIT: And as far as I know, Tai Chi is based in part on Pa Kua Chang and Xing Yi Chuan for inner style, and basic Shaolin Chuan for external style. Or at least that's what my teacher believes.
My best friend's grandfather says that Pa Kua Zhang (Chang) is used more on inner style than Xing Yu Chaun, I haven't talked to the guy in a while since I'm in college here in SC, and he's in California, though my best friend is in college with me, we're not really into Tai Chi too much, just some stories and stuff we listen to to pass the time while we at his grandparent's house.
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Old 2004-06-03, 01:38   Link #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
*rolls eyes* If you want to get THAT technical, then neither can a Uchiha copy jutsus on his own - someone ELSE has to show you those jutsus. Both these points are TECHINCALLY correct but kind of stupid.




Not QUITE what he meant - there is a Flash site that has more information that sarcasteak provided in the small scans - but as far as I know the page is down.

EDIT: And as far as I know, Tai Chi is based in part on Pa Kua Chang and Xing Yi Chuan for inner style, and basic Shaolin Chuan for external style. Or at least that's what my teacher believes.
We are not discussing bloodline limits, but sharingan vs byakugan.
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Old 2004-06-03, 01:58   Link #320
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Definately Sharingan because I think in future instances we will really see it full capability. Like the technique that caused the black flame and burn through the frogs stomach. All we really saw from it was just a teaser were as with the buggamon lol all we saw so far was he can see everything. Lot of good that did he still got his butt handed to him. Plus red eyes kick booty
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