Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[yinstro]

my feeling is that byakugan is broader scope than sharingan, this means that in some situations sharingan would be more powerful, but over all i think the byakugan is a bloodline that gives you more. sharingan can predict. but byakugan gets more info, 360 degree vision for meters in every direction, apparently thorugh objects? also more info chakra release points who knows what else. im guessing teh byakugan nullifies most genjutsu due to its nature, but i have no direct proof. ( i wonder if these eye types are weak to genjutsus, which attack senses otyher than eyes?) Anyhow in a fight a great byakugan/jyuken user is supposed to only lose to being over powered. as far as fighting i think the key is that the byakugan fighter makes no mistakes. its useless to see the future if thier is no opening. So far they havent shown a situation in which a byakugan user might lose a taijutsu fight other than being completely outclassed, the sharingan doesnt give that ability in and of itself.
basically my theory is
sharingan, abilities
seeing future movements (only works if teh opponent has oppenings, also a defensive user would strike based on your movements) ie you can see what im going to do, can you stop it?
various genjutsu (assuming the nature of byakugan and insight being its main thing, it should be at least as difficult to do a genjutsu on a byakugan user as a sharingan user, if not more so, byakugan is supposed to be even greater insight)

i wont consider the mange, because for all we know byakugan also has a higher rarer manifestation

[tkdtiger]

I think if Kish does write in a byak. user vs a sharingan user he'd have them nullify each others attacks so neither would win...

[astayanax]

i wont consider the mange, because for all we know byakugan also has a higher rarer manifestation

Wrong. Every Hyuuga has the Byakugan. However, very few Hyuuga can use it to its fullest extent with the Jyuuken fighting style and such. The Sharingan on the other hand is rare among the Uchiha; and even then there are different levels of it (kind of like how Saiyans and their SS states are)

[astayanax]

im guessing teh byakugan nullifies most genjutsu due to its nature

No proof here. As a matter of fact, it is very likely even Neji would be suspectile to genjutsus like anyone else since the senses are what genjutsu attacks. The Sharingan on the other hand can and does see through genjutsus as proven several times in the series.

The only known thing about Bykaugan is it gives 360 degrees vision for an extremely far distance; and that it allows you to see the fine chakra points on a living target. that is it. Jyuuken is used with Byakugan; but it isn't tie to Byakugan.

[Hunter]

About Genjutsu I think raikage says it best (I make pro-Byakugan arguement and raikage makes a pro-Sharingan one. What the world is coming to!)
If even the Sharingan as the best Genjutsu tool/counter of the show isn't immunized against itself there really is no reason for the Byakugan to be immune to it.

Originally Posted by yinstro

i wont consider the mange, because for all we know byakugan also has a higher rarer manifestation

You won't consider known abilities because for all we know the Byakugan is yet to have higher manifestation.
Funny point of view.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I think if Kish does write in a byak. user vs a sharingan user he'd have them nullify each others attacks so neither would win...

Extremely unlikely as there is no Hyuga strong enough to take on the last two Uchiha alive right now except maybe Hiashi and he's too minor of a character to do that.

Neji vs. Sasuke used to be my dream fight post timeskip/CS2 but now Neji would be used as a measuring stick, I would prefer not to see that from my favorite fighter in the show.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by astayanax

No proof here. As a matter of fact, it is very likely even Neji would be suspectile to genjutsus like anyone else since the senses are what genjutsu attacks. The Sharingan on the other hand can and does see through genjutsus as proven several times in the series.

The only known thing about Bykaugan is it gives 360 degrees vision for an extremely far distance; and that it allows you to see the fine chakra points on a living target. that is it. Jyuuken is used with Byakugan; but it isn't tie to Byakugan.

Byagukan has a better chakra view. We don't know how Byakugan sees the genjutsu world when it is activated, but I won't be surprised if it can easily detect the genjutsu. Similarly, I won't be surprised if a Byakugan user can easily deactivate genjutsu (even the high level ones Itachi can use) once it detects genjutsu mainly because of having one of the best tools to achieve great chakra control.

[Rurik]

That could be, but it should be directly proportional too the person, , for example if this is correct, Hinata should not be able to dispel some levels of Genjutsu thrown at her.

At least in the case of Tsukijomy, it can’t be dispelled given that is so fast for the person to even have time to do something about it.

[Medalist]

This thread has little to no purpose. It's based on the person's opinion and assumptions. And there's no person who has posted in this thread who has full facts about the byukugan and sharingan.

[ri0]

But we know the fact that Byakugan can sense even the slightest Chakramovement inside the body... So it must be able to see if a Sharingan user activates a Jutsu (like Genjutsu )

We also know that Byakugan users have probably the best chakra control in the whole series as it is even for Jounins difficult to release chakra from other parts of the body than hands or feet. Genjutsu break by stopping your own chakra flow. I think this is an easy task for a B-user.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by ri0

But we know the fact that Byakugan can sense even the slightest Chakramovement inside the body... So it must be able to see if a Sharingan user activates a Jutsu (like Genjutsu )

Well, Yes, A Byakugan user can tell if a Shinoby (not only the Shairngan user) will make a Jutsu, but he can’t tell if it would be Ninjutsu or Genjutsu.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

At least in the case of Tsukijomy, it can’t be dispelled given that is so fast for the person to even have time to do something about it.

The after-activation part is so fast, not the during-or-before-activation part. Kakashi was able to shout others caution during Itachi's activation process. And as mentioned above, Byagukan can notice the huge chakra transfer to the eye. Among all the non-Uchiha people who knows about the characteristics of the jutsu, Byagukan users have the highest advantage of detecting and avoiding Tsukiyomi. Even if they don't know the jutsu that comes after the activation, I think, they can leave the range of MS user to avoid the attack, instead of becoming a sitting-duck. If MS really has a range, then that automatically prevents it to become effective.

Also, there is a possible scenario about Byagukan in terms of fighting Tsukiyomi. The world it sees after it is activated. I think it is possible the path to genjutsu might somehow show irregular characteristics not allowing MS user to perfectly control the user.

[ri0]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Well, Yes, A Byakugan user can tell if a Shinoby (not only the Shairngan user) will make a Jutsu, but he can’t tell if it would be Ninjutsu or Genjutsu.

That's something we don't know... In my opinion it would make sense. Because I doubt that the chakra flow of Nin- and Genjutsu is the same. We must consider that a B-User sees Chakraflow all the time when he activates his eyes in battle... So when you are doing missions and are fighting a lot you get accustomed to the different chakra flows. But that is just a suggestion, though I think, it would make sense.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

The after-activation part is so fast, not the during-or-before-activation part. Kakashi was able to shout others caution during Itachi's activation process. And as mentioned above, Byagukan can notice the huge chakra transfer to the eye. Among all the non-Uchiha people who knows about the chakracteristics of the jutsu, Byagukan users have the highest advantage of detecting and avoiding Tsukiyomi.

Well, We are talking about dispelling, not avoiding, The process of dispelling refers to be already in the Jutsu and be able to get out of it, which its not possible given that by the time the Byakugan user will try to do something, the Jutsu will already be over.

Also, there is a possible scenario about Byagukan in terms of fighting Tsukiyomi. The world it sees after it is activated. I think it is possible the path to genjutsu might somehow show irregular characteristics not allowing MS user to perfectly control the user.

NO, This a world is controled by the Genjutsus user, he can even Make the Byakugan user unable to open his eyes if he wants to. and the Byakugan basically can’t fight it because this an illusion in an Abstract World were the only way to fight it is using anything that is related to his Physical body, which is tied to Real World and the time spam that the Jutsu last this real world.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Well, We are talking about dispelling, not avoiding, The process of dispelling refers to be already in the Jutsu and be able to get out of it, which its not possible given that by the time the Byakugan user will try to do something, the Jutsu will already be over.

I believe that for MS avoiding is more important than dispelling. Also, considering the tools Byagukan users have, talking about avoiding is necessary in addition to dispelling. Also note that the first case leads to definite success, whereas the second case is open to various possibilities. It is also not correct to say "by the time you do something". Ninja battles are mostly about reacting to threats as fast as you can. If you can detect and you are fast, then you can be able to avoid. And I think a Byagukan user can be able to do that.

NO, This a world is controled by the Genjutsus user, he can even Make the Byakugan user unable to open his eyes if he wants to. and the Byakugan basically can’t fight it because this an illusion in an Abstract World were the only way to fight it is using anything that is related to his Physical body, which is tied to Real World and the time spam that the Jutsu last this real world.

I was mainly referring to just-before Itachi's genjutsu reaches its target after it is activated. To be specific, achieving a genjutsu result that is similar in nature to Itachi's genjutsu against Kakashi's clone. Since, MS needs the eye to be effective, if that eye has some irregularities - just like a Byagukan user's eye, it is possible the path MS follows might not exactly follow its required path - having some kind of deviations, in other words. And I think this scenario is not implausable, both in terms of abilities and the time frame. For the time frame, mainly because the counter is not something you need to force yourself to do. Your body does what is required naturally as long as you have the Byagukan activated (which is normally always during fighting times).

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I believe that for MS avoiding is more important than dispelling. Also, considering the tools Byagukan users have, talking about avoiding is necessary in addition to dispelling. Also note that the first case leads to definite success, whereas the second case is open to various possibilities. It is also not correct to say "by the time you do something". Ninja battles are mostly about reacting to threats as fast as you can. If you can detect and you are fast, then you can be able to avoid. And I think a Byagukan user can be able to do that.
I was mainly referring to just-before Itachi's genjutsu reaches its target after it is activated. To be specific, achieving a genjutsu result that is similar in nature to Itachi's genjutsu against Kakashi's clone. Since, MS needs the eye to be effective, if that eye has some irregularities - just like a Byagukan user's eye, it is possible the path MS follows might not exactly follow its required path - having some kind of deviations, in other words. And I think this scenario is not implausable, both in terms of abilities and the time frame. For the time frame, mainly because the counter is not something you need to force yourself to do. Your body does what is required naturally as long as you have the Byagukan activated (which is normally always during fighting times).

Ok, let se if we get to agree on something for the first time, if I read quite correct.

Your references are mostly about Avoiding, Am I Correct?

If So, You are saying That in this case Avoiding is better than Dispelling, is that correct? beisdes I don't see why someone would try and take the Jutsu head on when he can just avoidied it-

So if this is what you are saying then I agree.

What I don’t agree is once you are caught in it, You would be able to react fast enough to do something about it, first because this is not a normal Genjutsus, this is a powerful one, you will need to have a very good amount of Chakra to dispelled it. I don’t think people with normal Chakra resources can do it, it seems Kisame has seen this Jutsus before and it seems they trust how reliable this can be.

Second, is the time you have to first realize you are a genjutsu (at lest n other shinobies cases)and then using your Body in order to dispelled it, only this small time frame is enough to the Jutsu to be over. Imagine the Shinoby trying to Mold chakra the correct amount of Chakra to send it to his brain. These reactions are directly tied to the physical body and the time it takes to do it.

And also another guess from plot perspective, given that Tsukijomy have weakness that can be exploited, I don’t see the reason why give it more. And more from a characters that are not that Important as the ones that holds Sharingan.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Ok, let se if we get to agree on something for the first time, if I read quite correct.

Your references are mostly about Avoiding, Am I Correct?

If So, You are saying That in this case Avoiding is better than Dispelling, is that correct? beisdes I don't see why someone would try and take the Jutsu head on when he can just avoidied it-

So if this is what you are saying then I agree.

What I don’t agree is once you are caught in it, You would be able to react fast enough to do something about it, first because this is not a normal Genjutsus, this is a powerful one, you will need to have a very good amount of Chakra to dispelled it. I don’t think people with normal Chakra resources can do it, it seems Kisame has seen this Jutsus before and it seems they trust how reliable this can be.

Second, is the time you have to first realize you are a genjutsu (at lest n other shinobies cases)and then using your Body in order to dispelled it, only this small time frame is enough to the Jutsu to be over. Imagine the Shinoby trying to Mold chakra the correct amount of Chakra to send it to his brain. These reactions are directly tied to the physical body and the time it takes to do it.

And also another guess from plot perspective, given that Tsukijomy have weakness that can be exploited, I don’t see the reason why give it more. And more from a characters that are not that Important as the ones that holds Sharingan.

Yes I was mostly talking about avoiding.

For dispelling (MS), I mostly lean on to Byagukan's natural characteristics that might allow it to become a natural counter for MS. In other words, it is more like not being effective (i.e., not completely getting caught by the jutsu) rather than dispelling. For completely dispelling MS, i.e., countering after entering the genjutsu world Itachi has created completely, I guess you are right, not being able to dispell is the more likely scenario. Byagukan can help here just like Sharingan helped Sasuke and Kakashi, avoiding death.

[astayanax]

The thing is with the MS genjutsu; it won't matter if the Byakugan user has a natural mechanism to dispel the genjutsu since once it is applied; time becomes meaningless. As we saw in the confrontation with Kakashi and Itachi; Kakashi got tortured for 72 hours in under a second in the real world.

Like with every other MS jutsu out there; it has to be avoided at all costs otherwise it is an instant victory for the MS user; unless we are talking about Kyuubi here or some supernatural entity.

Now contrary to other people; I think Byakugan users are weaker to things like Genjutsus than regular people because they are very sensitive in the 'data' they obtain. Using an example irl, there are sounds that would probably drives dogs crazy; but humans would just shrug off to the dog wondering what is going on because their hearing isn't as detailed and finetune as the dogs own. As such, it shouldn't be unreasonable to see Byakugan operating the same way.

Secondly, Kishimoto is very reluctant to put Byakugan users against any genjutsu ninjas and I am sure it is because of this very same reason.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Secondly, Kishimoto is very reluctant to put Byakugan users against any genjutsu ninjas and I am sure it is because of this very same reason.

Or, maybe because it doesn't work on them. And mentioning about that would degrade the effectiveness of Sharingan.

[ri0]

Now contrary to other people; I think Byakugan users are weaker to things like Genjutsus than regular people because they are very sensitive in the 'data' they obtain.

Hrr? What data are you talking about^^ They just have 360degree vision.

Using an example irl, there are sounds that would probably drives dogs crazy; but humans would just shrug off to the dog wondering what is going on because their hearing isn't as detailed and finetune as the dogs own. As such, it shouldn't be unreasonable to see Byakugan operating the same way.

I understand the dog example but what does this have to do with Byakugan and Genjutsu?

Secondly, Kishimoto is very reluctant to put Byakugan users against any genjutsu ninjas and I am sure it is because of this very same reason.

We only saw 3 Genjutsu users until now if I remember right... Does this mean because all the other characters except Shikamaru and Kakashi aren't able to handle Genjutsu because Kishimoto didn't make them fight against an user of this kind.

[Maiko]

Sharingan of course