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View Poll Results: Byukugan or sharingan?
Byukugan 407 35.51%
Sharingan 647 56.46%
Neither 92 8.03%
Voters: 1146. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-02-26, 10:17   Link #1281
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaz017 View Post
Oh how true indeed. Which is why when I posted why I picked sharingan it's basically because it's so over powered that I wouldn't want someone that did have it to woop the crap outta me. When it was introduced it was cool...once Sasuke used it to copy Lee's speed I thought it was stupid. At least Byakugan isn't ridiculous when it comes to how powerful it is. Oh well, I guess that's the route that Kishimoto choose to take...
Actually, it wasnt Lee speed, Sharingan can't copy that. What Sasuke copied was Lee's taijutsu, the speed Sasuke gained it by his own in 2 weeks of training, one of the Reasons he is considered a Genius is his ability to learn things faster than those who are not Genius.
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Old 2007-02-26, 10:45   Link #1282
Syndicate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Actually, it wasnt Lee speed, Sharingan can't copy that. What Sasuke copied was Lee's taijutsu, the speed Sasuke gained it by his own in 2 weeks of training, one of the Reasons he is considered a Genius is his ability to learn things faster than those who are not Genius.
i know what you mean and you raise a good question. But sharingan in a sense did copy the speed.

Taijustsu is hand to hand combat meaning moving action. IF lee does move meaning he hits his arm moves. sharingan copy's the taijutsui meaning lee hitting. now lee hittting goes with a certain speed. That speed is what sasuke copyed. He didnt copy the half its speed but THAT perticular speed since its that movement what he needs to copy.

Your right sasuke gaining the speed is through training. actually its like we all know see how fast sprinters run . we c an remember this scene but we cant actual reach this speed unless we go out and practice
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Old 2007-02-26, 11:00   Link #1283
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
i know what you mean and you raise a good question. But sharingan in a sense did copy the speed.

Taijustsu is hand to hand combat meaning moving action. IF lee does move meaning he hits his arm moves. sharingan copy's the taijutsui meaning lee hitting. now lee hittting goes with a certain speed. That speed is what sasuke copyed. He didnt copy the half its speed but THAT perticular speed since its that movement what he needs to copy.

Your right sasuke gaining the speed is through training. actually its like we all know see how fast sprinters run . we c an remember this scene but we cant actual reach this speed unless we go out and practice
I think you a little bit Confused, when Sasuke copied Lee Teijutus, he didn't had Lee real speed as the specific Speed Sasuke had after the training was The Speed of Lee without Weights.

Speed is directly tied to your Physical condition, something Sharinga just cant copy, as for example Sasuke couldn't not keep up With Lee even given his body could not move that fast, even when he had the Sharingan.

Sasuke needed to Train his body in order to reach this speed, What the Sharingan copied was exclusively the Taijutsu, leaving the speed something he had to gain trough hard training. if what you say were true, then Sharingan would also be able to Copy the Rasengan and Special Bloodline ability. and also
Spoiler:
all of this are attributes that need to be learn by maximizing your Physical condition.
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Old 2007-02-26, 11:23   Link #1284
Syndicate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I think you a little bit Confused, when Sasuke copied Lee Teijutus, he didn't had Lee real speed as the specific Speed Sasuke had after the training was The Speed of Lee without Weights.

Speed is directly tied to your Physical condition, something Sharinga just cant copy, as for example Sasuke couldn't not keep up With Lee even given his body could not move that fast, even when he had the Sharingan.

Sasuke needed to Train his body in order to reach this speed, What the Sharingan copied was exclusively the Taijutsu, leaving the speed something he had to gain trough hard training. if what you say were true, then Sharingan would also be able to Copy the Rasengan and Special Bloodline ability. and also
Spoiler:
all of this are attributes that need to be learn by maximizing your Physical condition.
i think you dont understand my logic and thus conclude i must be wrong. and dont read what i said i didnt say sasuke copyed the speed and thus is at once able to do that speed.

I said taijustu is composed of movements which in turn translated to speed. If you cant comprhend this then you wont be able to talk with me. if kakasi copy's lee's technique he copy's the whole movements position speed and force of the person in question

do you know what senses are and cognition. If i remember someone running i store this in my brains memory. This is thus in your own world of perception.

If you wanna know what speed is

taken from wikipedia(too lazy to look in a dictionary)

Speed is the rate of motion, or equivalently the rate of change of position, many times expressed as distance d travelled per unit of time t.

when sharingan copy's it SENSES this motion and copy the motion of for example of lee Sharingan doesnt copy a slowmo version of taijustu(which in turn can be sub divided in speed and other factors)

Lets assume you were right that means if someone copyed a taijutsu. he would copy a LEE who is standing still and is doing nothing thats plain BS

now tell me i am right^^.

Further more i said and qoute
Quote:
Your right sasuke gaining the speed is through training. actually its like we all know see how fast sprinters run . we c an remember this scene but we cant actual reach this speed unless we go out and practice
so why repeat what i agree with you

Quote:
Speed is directly tied to your Physical condition, something Sharinga just cant copy, as for example Sasuke couldn't not keep up With Lee even given his body could not move that fast, even when he had the Sharingan.
i didnt say sharingan copy's the phyical condition i said it copy's jutsu's. i further say sasuke needs to train to reach the speed he copyed. copying speed does not mean you are able to do it which is what you seem to immediatly conclude

Quote:
Sasuke needed to Train his body in order to reach this speed, What the Sharingan copied was exclusively the Taijutsu, leaving the speed something he had to gain trough hard training. if what you say were true, then Sharingan would also be able to Copy the Rasengan and Special Bloodline ability. and also
you made a wrong conclusion claim if you read my arguments above. Also further more saying thus can copy bloodline and chakra flow is a flawed assumtion you say things which only complicates your reasoning. sharingan can see chakra flow in a limited manner yes.

i assume because you say speed is tied to your phyical condition you conclude it must mean sharingan copy's genes or some shit but your taking this out of portportion. your sentence with tied to is right thats exactly what speed is TIED TO but TIED to does not translate to "IS" there 2 different things. speed can be achieved through some certain physical condition. this speed is "see the reference i gave above" a motion you need to tell me motion thus = physical body as you conclude with thus sharingan should be able to copy bloodline?

Last edited by Syndicate; 2007-02-26 at 11:40.
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Old 2007-02-26, 11:36   Link #1285
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
....
Ohhh, I Do Understand it very well, and still it doesn't had anything to do with what I'm saying, which is that The Sharingan Just cant copy speed, what you talked about, is the Taijutus, yes, knowing at what speed your Kick should be is part of what a Taijutu is. but Having the speed to do so is a totally different manner.

Is the same as Any other Jutsu, Sharingan will copy the Jutsu and the Chakra that the Jutsu takes, if the person doesn't have that amount of Chakra, he would not be able to do it, however, the person already copied the Jutsu, so all he needs to do is train his body to have sufficient Chakra to do so, because he alredy knows the amount of Chakra needed.

But these points are not even close to the original quote, is that simply Speed cant be copied.

BTW, I don't need Dictionary lectures; when Kishi uses a word he doesn't go to Wikipedia and apply the meaning exactly to the Manga. When we talk about speed, is just the quickness of a person, and not the mumbo jumbo from Encyclopedia.

And I read your quote, but you are confussing Orange and Apples here.
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Old 2007-02-26, 11:58   Link #1286
Syndicate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Ohhh, I Do Understand it very well.
you still dont understand 1 specific thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
and still it doesn't had anything to do with what I'm saying,
it does just because you cant see it now doenst mean it isnt so

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
which is that The Sharingan Just cant copy speed, what you talked about, is the Taijutus, yes, knowing at what speed your Kick should be is part of what a Taijutu is. but Having the speed to do so is a totally different manner..
the thing which you miss here is that you cant seem to grasp that if

sharingan can

copy tai justu (composed of speed position etc)
copy ninjutsu
copy genjustu

if sharingan copy's a certain justsu it copys the jutsu and ALL the part of which its composed of. Otherwise it doenst copy the justu at all but a part SET of taijustu which cant be seen as the full taijustu. you seem to agree on that speed is a part of taijustu and agree that a certain kick with a speed is copyed why you say it doenst copy the speed then if it doenst copy the speed which is part of taijustu it doesnt copy as taijust dont be ignorant and try to be wrong read and understand your own fault logic here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Is the same as Any other Jutsu, Sharingan will copy the Jutsu and the Chakra that the Jutsu takes, if the person doesn't have that amount of Chakra, he would not be able to do it, however, the person already copied the Jutsu, so all he needs to do is train his body to have sufficient Chakra to do so, because he alredy knows the amount of Chakra needed..
Here you state something interesting yourself you say it copy's the chakra that the user takes now WHY you say its allowed to copy the amount of chakra but not the speed. you want to tell me that chakra isnt a part of ninjutsu. your contraditing your own logic as i earlier said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
But these points are not even close to the original quote, is that simply Speed cant be copied..
simple speed isnt a what is coped ITS the USER WITH a GIVEN SPEED what is copyed. The motion of a user is translated in a certain speed what is copyed ifit wasnt copyed we would have no knowledge about how fast the user is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
BTW, I don't need Dictionary lectures; when Kishi uses a word he doesn't go to Wikipedia and apply the meaning exactly to the Manga. When we talk about speed, is just the quickness of a person, and not the mumbo jumbo from Encyclopedia.
because you seem to think dictionary's arent necessary also is the reason why you have flawed statements conclusions everyone makes faults even kishi. in order for logic reasoning to work and make an anime you first need to know our world concepts and basics and meanings.

your statements saying kishi didnt thus is a 6 year old statement which isnt founded on any reasonable argumentation and thus cannot be taken seriously
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And I read your quote, but you are confussing Orange and Apples here.
i leave this for the rest of the forum decide. Its pretty obvious from this post i made to see who actually know how to reason and who doesnt. im not asking you to kill yourself in shame cuz you said something wrong but you shoudl reconsider what you have been rying to say and what i have presented you with facts.
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Old 2007-02-26, 12:31   Link #1287
Rurik
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LOL, I just can believe you wasted all your time to debate something that doesn't have Anything to do wit my Original Point.

First thing is, let talk about Facts, Fact is, Sharingan Cant Copy Speed, now that we Have this clear up, lets play a little with your absurdly long post for such meaningless point, something you replied to me with no reason at all to begin with. it seems you have a wish to debate against all the senior members here...But unlike other posters who have other things to do, I do and will always reply to all of your confusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
the thing which you miss here is that you cant seem to grasp that if

sharingan can

copy tai justu (composed of speed position etc)
copy ninjutsu
copy genjustu

if sharingan copy's a certain justsu it copys the jutsu and ALL the part of which its composed of. Otherwise it doenst copy the justu at all but a part SET of taijustu which cant be seen as the full taijustu. you seem to agree on that speed is a part of taijustu and agree that a certain kick with a speed is copyed why you say it doenst copy the speed then if it doenst copy the speed which is part of taijustu it doesnt copy as taijust dont be ignorant and try to be wrong read and understand your own fault logic here!
Taijutus is compose of speed and Body movements, which both are directly tied to your Physical conditions, thats a fact., If you don't have the body to reach that speed or to maintain that speed, you wont be able to perform the Taijutus.

The most important aspect here, is we go back to square one, you are directly saying that copying the Taijutsu will help to copy the Speed of the person, this is false, And YEs, Sharinagn Only copy parts of the Jutsu and there are things that the Sharingan just can't copy. and this has been made clear in the Manga, for example:

Kakashi needed to train Sasuke speed to do the Chidory, because the speed needed could not be gained just by watching it.

And
Spoiler:



Quote:
Here you state something interesting yourself you say it copy's the chakra that the user takes now WHY you say its allowed to copy the amount of chakra but not the speed. you want to tell me that chakra isnt a part of ninjutsu. your contraditing your own logic as i earlier said.
Deal with your understanding problem, It copy how the chakra works in the body, not that its copy the amount of Chakra and its magically transmitted to the body of the person copying it, thats absurd.

Quote:
simple speed isnt a what is coped ITS the USER WITH a GIVEN SPEED what is copyed. The motion of a user is translated in a certain speed what is copyed ifit wasnt copyed we would have no knowledge about how fast the user is.
Make up your mind, is either one or the other:

-Sharingan copy Speed, as In how fast a person body movements are in a Taijutsu, meaning the person after copying this will be able to perform that Taijutus at similar speed.

-Sharingan copy a Taijutsu and it also save in the subconcius the Speed of the Persons doing it. (correct one whihc I agree with)

And Now That I think About it, not necesarely the Sharingan needs to recall the speed of a person for the Taijutsu, Because, for example, Lees Primary lotus shouldnt be as fast as Gai Primary lotus, Hunter, Saze...., I need your imput about this specific point.

Speed is a physical Attributes tied to the muscles and your stamina (sometimes Chakra), you need to train your muscle to have a elevated speed, Reason why Lee uses Weight is to Train his muscle and obtain higher speed.

If your logic would had been near correct, all the uchihas would had needed to do is just seat with a Bag of Pop Corn and Begin copying everything they see. and they wouldnt had need to train at all.

Quote:
because you seem to think dictionary's arent necessary also is the reason why you have flawed statements conclusions everyone makes faults even kishi. in order for logic reasoning to work and make an anime you first need to know our world concepts and basics and meanings.
No, because I don't need a dictionary to tell me that speed is just been quick, and thats all, using dictionary can only help distort what the author intended, in this case, something that is made so 11 Year old could understand without the need to look for a dictionary.

Quote:
your statements saying kishi didn't thus is a 6 year old statement which isnt founded on any reasonable argumentation and thus cannot be taken seriously
I didn't understand what you tried to say here.

Quote:
i leave this for the rest of the forum decide.
Its pretty obvious from this post i made to see who actually know how to reason and who doesnt. im not asking you to kill yourself in shame cuz you said something wrong but you shoudl reconsider what you have been rying to say and what i have presented you with facts.
Hahaha, you are really new!!!, This point has been debated in this forum A LOT, and basically everyones agree here on what I have said and BTW, You only have used one fact so far the rest is just your assumptions and sometimes even Contradictions.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-02-26 at 13:37. Reason: Minor Spelling errors
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Old 2007-02-26, 14:02   Link #1288
2H-Dragon
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Just for the hell of it. I agree with Rurik in this fruitless discussion.

Sharingan, obviously rapes the shit out of Byukugan. Just kill your mate.
Spoiler:

There you have one second ownage right there. It can also predict your enemies movement. While Byukugan is prolly better for scouts and archers. Sharignan just wins in actual combat.
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Old 2007-02-26, 14:18   Link #1289
Syndicate
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the long post are a bit chaotic so i will put it better in context for a last time rurik.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
what we know
fact: we know sharingan copy taijustsu

question: can sharingan copy speed of a given user doing a taijustsu?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
understanding & insight into the facts and questions

we 1st need to know what taijustu is in a more scientic meaning.

taijustsu is the movements of a user in a given state of time with certain positions of the user in a specific timeframe.

we elaborate movement since we wanna awnser the question about speed

what is movement?

movement is a object physically going to another location with a certain speed
-------------------------------------
then we do a research approach

we read the question.

if we want to prove this wrong what you seem to do(LOL). Then speed shouldn't be able to be copyed by sharingan.

If we remove speed of the definition of taijustsu. as you say it is not being copyed into the subconcious of the brain of a sharingan user. It would mean this

a user moving without any speed (while somehow still moving????/) with certain positionings of a user in a specific time frame

This statement is false since we can conclude that speed and time are related to each other Thus movement is becomes false. And so also the definition of what taijutsu shoudl be. Then we have to conclude sharingan copy's something else then taijustsu.

you saying that speed isnt copyed by sharingan through your reasoning would mean that sharingan copying taijustu cant be possible. Then through your logic then the definition of taijutsu because false because were not able to copy all parts of the def. of taijutsu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Just for the hell of it. I agree with Rurik in this fruitless discussion. .
does agreeing with someone make something right. i respect your opinon but that doenst mean its right if he is wrong or the otherway around for that matter

still fun to read your for the hell-of-it-reasoning^^

btw rurik i would love hear you say your still right and through my logic we would conclude how kakashi copy lee lotus and would be standing still in mid air cuz it cant copy speed. ROFLMAO

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-02-26 at 15:41. Reason: Don't double post
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Old 2007-02-26, 14:37   Link #1290
Hunter
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From what I get you are talking about two different things when saying "copy".

The Sharingan analyzes everything and that includes speed so in this sense the Sharingan does "copy" speed along with all other informations.
In the other hand the Sharingan doesn't allow to mimic speed or any other physical capacities so in this sense the Sharingan does not "copy" speed or strength or chakra control or else.

In this case the discussion was about Sasuke gaining Lee's speed, hence about the ability to mimic technique. Therefore Rurik is right, the Sharingan didn't copy Lee's speed for Sasuke who had to train his body the regular way to reach such level.


edit : actually no it does seem that Syndicate is saying that the Sharingan allows its user to mimic speed.
Well try to think a little a realize that if that was the case Sasuke would have the same speed, amount of chakra, strength, etc. than Kyubi Naruto for example.
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Old 2007-02-26, 14:44   Link #1291
Syndicate
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[QUOTE=Hunter]From what I get you are talking about two different things when saying "copy".

The Sharingan analyzes everything and that includes speed so in this sense the Sharingan does "copy" speed along with all other informations.
In the other hand the Sharingan doesn't allow to mimic speed or any other physical capacities so in this sense the Sharingan does not "copy" speed or strength or chakra control or else.

In this case the discussion was about Sasuke gaining Lee's speed, hence about the ability to mimic technique. Therefore Rurik is right, the Sharingan didn't copy Lee's speed for Sasuke who had to train his body the regular way to reach such level.[/QUOTEyou people confuse copy with play [/qoute]

basically hunter your repeating what i say but make some weird conclusionfrom it. Just because someone isnt able to DO a certain speed it doesnt means he hasnt seen it or copy (STORE) for that matter. you cant have both its either he copyed the speed ir he didnt. the store in the subconsious mind does not mean your able to im able to remember (copy in my brain) to see a bird flying. If i have a CD but i cant play the CDdue to the fact that the Cd has it limits different format or some stuff doenst mean the data hasnt been copyed.

can i fly ? --> no did i make a copy of that bird flying yes. If we had the technology of ghost in the shell i could upload this cop of this bird flying into a server and you would SEE it with the copyed speed on that server.

pls try to prove me wrong here hunter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
edit : actually no it does seem that Syndicate is saying that the Sharingan allows its user to mimic speed.
Well try to think a little a realize that if that was the case Sasuke would have the same speed, amount of chakra, strength, etc. than Kyubi Naruto for example.
your wrong read pls my qoute
Quote:
the copy part only stores data in the subconsious. BEING able to do is another issue copy is copy not perform. thats where you go wrong both points above say in a sense that copy of a movements can be remembers stored copyed.. YOUR word MEANING in the 1st one does not say he can do that speed.

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-02-26 at 15:41. Reason: Don't double post
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Old 2007-02-26, 15:24   Link #1292
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
edit : actually no it does seem that Syndicate is saying that the Sharingan allows its user to mimic speed.
Well try to think a little a realize that if that was the case Sasuke would have the same speed, amount of chakra, strength, etc. than Kyubi Naruto for example.
Thats my problem, I don't know if that what he is impliying or is the first part of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
were talkinga bout 1 thing here speed you seem to thin k im talking about anything else then speed which is why your plai igonorant. and indeed its wasted at you but not on other for that matter

thatw what you have to say cant copy you saying it cant doenst make it right actually your plain fault just are ignorant to not see that sharingan copy's a person moving. Reason why i made a long post is to explain why what you say is wrong. Look if you cant understand that simple thing how are you to understand what someone might say.
No we are not only Talking about speed, we are talking about The Sharingan inability to copy speed and reproduce it, whichi was my intended post. And why It can't copy it, as Using other examples are a way to illustrate why it can’t.


Quote:
I respond to your flawed statement and explain why its wrong doenst matter wherether your senoir or not fault is fault senoir or junior. what you wanna say because your longer here maks you right?
No, Because I’m a senior that only means I have seen this Debate in this Forum before, and at the end, the agreement is that Sharingan doesn’t copy Speed, given everything said in the Manga and Databooks, so, it doesn’t matter if you have Memorize Naruto Manga, the problem is understanding what it means, which obviously you are having trouble with. or you just debating something with no reason at all.

Quote:
and i agree with this this is what i have started saying and your repeating my argumentations. Also i have pointed more then a couple of times out how you make wrong statements which you dont seem to deny. Thus we all can conclude from reading our debate that you must be wrong because you dont point out how your contradictional post are not contradictional. Now your still TRYIng to rant on how I might be wrong using my reasonng and armumentation! what ever you try to pro your a joke if you keep going on/
For the Sake of the argument, this is only you that doesn’t seem to understand the Nature of Copying and hence you are basically lost in what The Sharingan copy in every Jutsu. You will do good if you for once read the Manga carefully, everything.


Quote:
MYargumentation says you agree

then you say in the above qoute let me say something that will hunt you down IF i copy part of entity A which is a SUp part B. B is what you said is copyed now A s is composed of 1 2 3. B is 1 2. You say sharingan only take part meaning only B. If you know anything about math and reasing or logic which you dont you would understand that B is NOT A.
The problem is you are centered in a Quote that was 300 Chapters ago, I will repeat myself again, to see if you can understand it well:

Someone that copy A Jutsu with the Sharingan, is actually decoding what a Jutsu does and how it works, however, there are certain things that Sharingan can’t help the person reprodice, and if in the moment the person copy this jutsu doesn’t have the attributes needed to Reproduce the Jutsu, then he wont be able to do it, So Yes, as a Fact Sharingan can only copy a Jutsu to a certain degree, but it would not copy everything of it, as thing as: Chakra, Stamina, Speed, Physical Strength etc, things needed to be gained by physically adapting your body. Reason Why Rasengan can’t be copied.

As I’m not making this up, this was implied in the Manga more than once!

Quote:
This reasoning what i give you is killing your WHOLE and whom ever agrees with ou posts. This what i present you is called formule structures you probabaly dont know shit about it but any professor anyone with a brain will know that a arm that is has been cut of from a human is NOT the human. you saying sharingan copy taijust and only part of taijutsu will mean its NOT taijustsu at all and thus kishi would have to call it something else. This is if you apply scientic reasoning to your busllshit!!!
Your problem is simple, you take a quote, and you simply are basing that quote for the whole of your argument, which is invalid to do so, because new things has been revealed in the Series, which just make your point Incorrect, and for the Sake of the Argument, You have debated in the Manga thread, so you should be aware of what I’m talking about.

Quote:
Also what you qoute is partly WHAT i say only you dont wish it to be speed of the user. in order for the sharingan to copy taijutsu it needs to see know how fast it is or it wont know what the movement is doing or WHAT the taijustu is.
No it doesn’t, The sharingan can follow the movement at to some point, however as stated by Lee, that’s not necessarily means your body can go that fast as well.

Quote:
LEt me tell you this sharingan also copy's the position of the user in a given state of time you wanna deny this you wanna tell me just like speed sharingan doesnt see this that it comes from god down to earth and suddenly you know.
No the Sharingan doesn’t copy the position of anybody state of time, that’s twisted, What Sharingan does is predict them movements of the Jutsu based on the user nerve movements and other stuff, however, it can’t do it with everything, as Sasuke could not Avoid Kyuby Chakra arms. Not to mention this has nothing to do with actually been able to copy the speed.

Quote:
HOW you apply a copyed taijustu how fast and in what position is something a sharingan user can determine for himself in execution.
He can see it with his eye, but he can’t just replicate that after seen it, if he doesn’t have the requisite to do it. and that’s the point on why The Sharingan doesn’t copy speed.

Quote:
Spoiler:
Use Spoiler.
Spoiler:


In the case the person has the physical conditions needed to Perform the Jutsu, he doesn’t need to train, Example:

Spoiler:


Quote:
where i earlier said something about thisfirst go deny what i said to you before you ever wanna talk about how i dont talk about the subject at hand.
so i use this against you
your saying THIS isnt that because the sky is not green. Thats your type of logic.
Yes and that’s the reason why we know how things works with the Sahringan, Sharingan can’t copy a Bloodline ability because a Physical attribute, something in the body that the Sharingan holder doesn’t have, the same is applied to speed, if you cant reach that speed with you body, you wont be able to perform the Taijutsu after it has been copy.

In fact Gai was clear when he saw that Sasuke had copy part of Lee Lotus, he Said, that is something that cant be done just by using the sharingan, This also is a direct statement that Sharingan just doesn’t copy everything from the Jutsu.

Quote:
also your so called argument about chidori is in a sense same with how a user need to train in order to get speed when youcopy a taijustu . whether you need speed or not for chidori is not the subject. sharingan reads and copy's. sharingan does reads the seal combination of chidori and can copy the movement position and speed in which the execution of the seals is done the actual performing the skill chidori is something that depend on the physical state of the user and other things.
What are you doing once again its changing your argument, I said to you and I will say it again, what is it:

-Copy Taijutsu, and if the person doesnt have the speed he needs to gained it by Training (My point).

-Copy everything from the Taijutsu including the speed of the person, meaning the person after copying the Jutsu, will be have the same speed of the opponent. (what the original poster I quoted, tought)

Quote:
deal with my understanding problem? first of all sharingan isnt byukugan so go read some things before you wanna talk about moi.
The Byakugan is a requisite for it, just as Shairngan is needed for Chidory, but not to the point as Jutsus like the Amateratsu, which the Jutsu comes from the eye itself.

Quote:
sharingan can see how much chakra prorbably is emitted when using a skill it doenst see how it works inside the user like how hyuuga's do who can see exactly WHere it is what it does.
Wrong, it was explained that the Sharingan tell how the Chakra it working inside the body, in a different way than the Byakugan, In the case of the Sharingan is to be able to decode a Jutsu and be able to copy it.

Quote:
sharingan user see an amount and thats it.
Sharingan sees more than that,.

Quote:
your 1000 false argument. reason WHY it knows how much chakra is because they need to use seals in order to execute copyed jutsu's. when they have an idea on how much chakra is emitted and its not like they can sense this in a exact 100000000000000% sure sense. liek hyuuga. they execute it accourdingly with the copyed skills.
What, You also saying that the Hyugas can copy Jutsu?

Matter of fact The Sharingan tells everything going on inside regarding the Jutsu, including how the chakra is working, and even to tell, the amount required for it.
Spoiler:


Quote:
if you watch the chapter where naruto has bunshins fighting at the chuunin exam sasuke sees a certain amount of chakra around the bushins he doenst see what the chakra is doing inside of them or the users.
Naruto was just using Taijutsu, no need to be decoding Chakra activity.

Quote:
where ever when you see a sharingan user have they said they know what the chakra is doing?
Kakashi using his Sharingan to see Lees opening Gates and

Spoiler:



Quote:
there both the same. . try to prove both of em as differnt you wont be able to your a funny guy seriously

the copy part only stores data in the subconsious. BEING able to do is another issue copy is copy not perform. thats where you go wrong both points above say in a sense that copy of a movements can be remembers stored copyed.. YOUR word MEANING in the 1st one does not say he can do that speed.
There are totally different, if you even had an Idea what we reffer to copy with the Sharingan, in other words, the quote was very specific:

IF the Sharingan is seen someone as some speed using taijutsu, he could have an idea of the speed of the Taijutsu, in this case, if the Person doesn’t have that speed, he just cant do The Tajutsu, because the speed which is part of it, can’t be copy by The Sharingan, the Sharingan will only see the speed, but not Copy the speed.

You should try and reread the original quoted post, and my post, to what I was referring, the confusion of the original poster and my correction are clear and specific, now the one here who is very confused here is you, as you or are either Implying that Someone that doesn’t have the speed, can perform the Taijutsu regardless, because Sharingan do copy the speed, or You are just debating just to nitpick.

Quote:
aho
you also pointed out how you cnat read my posts

and
this is the 3th time i need to remind you of this you can read for yourself where i say that copying the speed does not mean you can do it yourself just yet/
The problem is that you are contradicting yourself in the same post and change your point from one quote to the other, like this:

Quote:
you seem to agree on that speed is a part of taijustu and agree that a certain kick with a speed is copyed why you say it doenst copy the speed then if it doenst copy the speed which is part of taijustu it doesnt copy as taijust dont be ignorant and try to be wrong read and understand your own fault logic here!
Here you are saying it does copy the speed, after this you say:

Quote:
Here you state something interesting yourself you say it copy's the chakra that the user takes now WHY you say its allowed to copy the amount of chakra but not the speed. you want to tell me that chakra isnt a part of ninjutsu/
and then:

Quote:
speed in which the execution of the seals is done the actual performing the skill chidori is something that depend on the physical state of the user and other things.
The first two quotes are contradicting with the last one. So you have to decide which is going to be, one and the other, and I usually don’t complaint about grammar, but please, at least clean up your act a little bit, it is getting impossible to get your idea.

Quote:
speed isnt about just being the fastest or quick. Speed can be fast or slow. I really suggest taking a dictionary man your a joke talkinga bout how think what word means let me tell you as someone who studies. The more you learn the more you understand how little you know. people who study french use the french dictionary more then those who dont study french even though they know alot more about french same. you saying you already know when not knowing is sad.
This has been the funniest line I have read in the past days:

As Speed can be slow or Fast, but the point here is that when we talk about speed, we talk about about the quickness of somebody, you talked about slow, but this is not the point here, because We are not talking about a Speed the Sharingan user has, we are talking about a speed greater than what the Sharingan can have at the moment he copies the Jutsu.

Quote:
wont even matter you wont ever understand anything i say when proven right. look the qoute above how funny. Speed is just being quick a statement of a 6 year old.
DUH! Because this is a Manga intended for Young Kids!! kids that when a character say “what is this speed?” is referring to someone with a greater speed, and not, “Hmmm Maybe this one has a slow speed.”

Quote:
this is the only thing you have concluded right im new here. and if indeed what you say where true that people agree on this then i geuss they should read this a couple of times. thats if what you say where true.
The goal of a forum is not only to debate, is also to learn more about a series, and believe me, the majority of people here knows exactly what we talked baout when we say that Sharingan doesn’t copy speed, we have years debating about it, this is not about been new in the forum, this is about experience in the subject.
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Old 2007-02-26, 15:54   Link #1293
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
you people confuse copy with play
basically hunter your repeating what i say but make some weird conclusionfrom it. Just because someone isnt able to DO a certain speed it doesnt means he hasnt seen it or copy (STORE) for that matter. you cant have both its either he copyed the speed ir he didnt. the store in the subconsious mind does not mean your able to im able to remember (copy in my brain) to see a bird flying. If i have a CD but i cant play the CDdue to the fact that the Cd has it limits different format or some stuff doenst mean the data hasnt been copyed.

can i fly ? --> no did i make a copy of that bird flying yes. If we had the technology of ghost in the shell i could upload this cop of this bird flying into a server and you would SEE it with the copyed speed on that server.

pls try to prove me wrong here hunter
You are mistaken about what I say. You can't "store" speed, it doesn't mean anything. In the other hand you can memorize how fast something/one is but it's not what make you able to reproduce a Taijutsu move.
Sasuke could reproduce Lee's Taijutsu move during the prelim whereas he wasn't as fast as Lee, could still reproduce them when he was as fast as Lee and will still be able to use them if/when he becomes faster.

So again : yes the Sharingan gives informations about speed to its user, and no it doesn't make the user faster which was what the post that started your arguement with Rurik was all about.
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:08   Link #1294
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
So again : yes the Sharingan gives informations about speed to its user, and no it doesn't make the user faster which was what the post that started your arguement with Rurik was all about.
Just an addition, the information sharingan can give is limited to what it can see. Meaning if the action is beyond the quickness of the movement it follows, it may not get any information at all on that.

For the second part, I agree partially. I think the sharingan user can become faster, even though it would last very short time before the user would have a break down, if the move he copies requires movements beyond the user's normal speed. This is possible, if the way that move (that makes the user faster) was created, can be perfectly copied by the sharingan (meaning all the required pieces such as chakra/muscle modification are there to see it, and available for access (this part is important), or there is no invisible part to that speed).

Anyway, this might still be debatable, since the description of normal speed might also include that beyond the limit speed.
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:13   Link #1295
Syndicate
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i didnt read your post rurik cuz you 1st need to be able to read man.

sharingan doesnt DO speed itself
sharingan also doenst make you DO ninjustu
sharingan also doesnt make you fly
sharingan doesnt make you physically stronger

you or hunter not able to know what i mean with

Quote:
the copy part only stores data in the subconsious. BEING able to do is another issue copy is copy not perform.
is beyond my help only god can help you with this.

sharingan is an eye it cant reproduce physically somethings what you seem to think im saying

im saying this for a 10000th time being able to copy and doing is different you saying because someone copy's something and because he cant do it thus he hasn't copyed it is flawed. its copyed in to the brain. whether sasuke copy's lee's speed and cant do it and then say its not the exact is not the issue.

if i copy a CD and am not able to play that copy its stilla copy it doesnt change to not a copy.

for the rest of your post i have more then once repeated stuff which is easy to understand you ask what i mean i type it 3 4 10 times yet you dont grasp it. going into the long end less flawed post is basically troublesome. im Reading through half through your post and im still laughing because you or whomever agreed it thus be right and can never be proven wrong is why you keep going on why you suppovely must be right. have you ever thought about the fact that what you or others take account for might be wrong.

also you dont even know what speed is and say its trying to be as quick as possible you say you dont need a dictionary but what to even use sentences on how i might be wrong?

i suggest you first try to improve those things admit it was wrong and then want to go with me in discussion cuz its laughing what you saying now.

The difficult thing for people to live with is that things they regard as right might infact be wrong just liek in the middle ages they thought the world was flat. your a person who says because everyoen says the world is flat the world must thus be flat. and probably would kill off anyone who said the world is round.

1st go admit your faults about the above things then i will go with you about the arumentations on why sharingan copy's speed which is a sup integral part of taijustu

also whether you wanna prove me wrong you first need to be realistic you said stuff definitions that dont add up. I first wanna hear about that before you keep feeding new qoutes otherwise it pointless to go on talking to you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You are mistaken about what I say. You can't "store" speed, it doesn't mean anything. In the other hand you can memorize how fast something/one is but it's not what make you able to reproduce a Taijutsu move.
Sasuke could reproduce Lee's Taijutsu move during the prelim whereas he wasn't as fast as Lee, could still reproduce them when he was as fast as Lee and will still be able to use them if/when he becomes faster.

So again : yes the Sharingan gives informations about speed to its user, and no it doesn't make the user faster which was what the post that started your arguement with Rurik was all about.
the store memorize copy are synonims i used in arguments to point out why its copyed. the only good thing rurik qouted was that it de encodes the info seen into info( electrical signal ) for humans to memorize

kishimoto word copy might have been wrongly used ita fictional store in which we need to interpreted the meaning.

also you said something weird in the initial post you said

Quote:
The Sharingan analyzes everything and that includes speed so in this sense the Sharingan does "copy" speed along with all other informations.(this is my claim which you agree with)
In the other hand the Sharingan doesn't allow to mimic speed or any other physical capacities so in this sense the Sharingan does not "copy" speed or strength or chakra control or else.(to mimic is not cop copy is copy. do is do copy is duplicating info into a format nothing more nothing less)
taken that you say these 2 things i cant understand why you say sharingan doesnt copy speed since you seem agree sharingan does copy yet you say it doesnt copy cuz you can or cannot reproduce. the notion of copy is allready completed.

Quote:
In this case the discussion was about Sasuke gaining Lee's speed, hence about the ability to mimic technique. Therefore Rurik is right, the Sharingan didn't copy Lee's speed for Sasuke who had to train his body the regular way to reach such level.
sasuke did copy but unable to do it. just admit rurik is wrong cuz it only gives him reason to go try on with this.

if copy means what you and rurik would say it means that if i copy a DVD+ video and are unable to play the DVD on a DVD- system. thus the DVD+ must not be a copy?

you and rurik and wrong on this part the playing the DVD is execution(perform, to do, action) related not copy (memorize store)related. This not being able to play the DVD is the same as sasuke having to train to achieve that speed, when you take in consideration taht you can upgrade the your DVD system with a new codec enabling you to play DVD+ on a DVD- system.

thus what you can see is that all whom ever agreed on sharingan cannot copy speed are wrong. this has nothing to do with whether i just joined the forum and thus i cant be right cuz you ahve been here earlier through the definition used in english and reasoning what i say isnt disputeable. Or you guys will now have to state that you have a new definition for copy and i geuss ill agree if the rest of the world does.

Last edited by Syndicate; 2007-02-26 at 16:31.
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:23   Link #1296
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
i didnt read your post rurik cuz you 1st need to be able to read man.
Just a suggestion, but if you want your posts to be read and understood well, you need to write it well. I went through your post, and all I can say is, compared to the people you criticize, it is still "mada mada dane".
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:39   Link #1297
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
Ö..
You dindt read my post because you haven been readnig my post to begin with, in this case, what you did know was just not reply to my post, but For once lets compare all the post, to see exactly what you are debating about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I think you a little bit Confused, when Sasuke copied Lee Teijutus, he didn't had Lee real speed as the specific Speed Sasuke had after the training was The Speed of Lee without Weights.
I made clear about what we talk about COPYING. This should had been enough for agreement given you subsequent post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
i think you dont understand my logic and thus conclude i must be wrong. and dont read what i said i didnt say sasuke copyed the speed and thus is at once able to do that speed.
You are here are making yourself clear about the Subject. And it didnt had anything to do with what I was talking about.

But then you say this:

Quote:
when sharingan copy's it SENSES this motion and copy the motion of for example of lee Sharingan doesnt copy a slowmo version of taijustu(which in turn can be sub divided in speed and other factors)
This seems to be Saying that Sharingan can help the person replicate speed, which I replied explaining the difference here, and making clear that, this is not the intended point of the 2 originals post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Ohhh, I Do Understand it very well, and still it doesn't had anything to do with what I'm saying, which is that The Sharingan Just cant copy speed, what you talked about, is the Taijutus, yes, knowing at what speed your Kick should be is part of what a Taijutu is. but Having the speed to do so is a totally different manner.
It seemed to me we were on a totally different things, but then you continue with your senseless debate and in this case even changing your stance about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
sharingan can

copy tai justu (composed of speed position etc)
copy ninjutsu
copy genjustu

if sharingan copy's a certain justsu it copys the jutsu and ALL the part of which its composed of. Otherwise it doenst copy the justu at all but a part SET of taijustu which cant be seen as the full taijustu. you seem to agree on that speed is a part of taijustu and agree that a certain kick with a speed is copyed why you say it doenst copy the speed then if it doenst copy the speed which is part of taijustu it doesnt copy as taijust dont be ignorant and try to be wrong read and understand your own fault logic here!
Given what you say here, you not saying that The Sharingan only see a Speed an memorize the speed of the Taijutsu, but that the user will be able to do that speed regardless of the person having that speed to do so.

And you continued to change from that to the other confusing everyone, and then you put your Physics lesson, which is not even complete:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
understanding & insight into the facts and questions

we 1st need to know what taijustu is in a more scientic meaning.

taijustsu is the movements of a user in a given state of time with certain positions of the user in a specific timeframe.

we elaborate movement since we wanna awnser the question about speed

what is movement?

movement is a object physically going to another location with a certain speed
-------------------------------------
then we do a research approach
Actually Movement use speed, but Speed is a totally different thing as movement, One canít subsist without the other, but they are totally different things. The speed is directionally proportional to the force placed on the Object. In this case there is a Element missing in your definition, Force, and with Force we have to take in account Friction and density/mass of the object.

In order to gain a Speed a Object needs to be applied force, and to gain a specific speed, the force needed to be applied has to be directly proportional to the Mass/Density of the object and the friction of the surface, not to mention the gravitational pull on the Surface.

For you to understand so you can go and tell in you Physics class:

Taijutsu Needs Movement and a specific speed (not just any speed) To have this speed the body needs enough force to reach it, but in order to reach this speed, the body which is the Element that produce force, needs to have the sufficient power to do so.

You should look for a Dictionary so you can learn what Power, Force, friction, Mass, Gravity and density means, and how they afect movement and specifically speed.

When Sharingan does the copying, The Person decodes the Jutsu, in this case this are the things a User Can decode: Handseals (movement) and Chakra activity. However this does not means that the person can do the Jutsu there because there are a lot of factors, Physical ones, that govern the rule of the Sharingan copying abilities.

In the case of Taijutus it can be any more simple than it is:

Gai has a Taijutsu that Requires a kick at 50 M/H . If Sasuke copy this Jutsu and at this moment Sasuke can only move his overall body at 10 M/H, he would not be able to perform the Jutsu until he reach the requisites for doing so.

This is the Same Principle behind why Sharingan doesnít copy Bloodline ability.

Quote:
btw rurik i would love hear you say your still right and through my logic we would conclude how kakashi copy lee lotus and would be standing still in mid air cuz it cant copy speed. ROFLMAO
As a matter of fact Kakashi doing the Lotus is something made up by the Anime, we donít know if Kakashi can actually do it, and if he does, when and how did he Learn it. either way, Kakashi Can Open his gates 3 or 5 and its way Much faster than Lee, So I donít see no problem with Kakashi Copying and performing the Lotus.
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:47   Link #1298
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
Btw sazelyt how can i understand or talk with him if doenst know what the words even mean or admit he made a mistake?
Not writing well might result in not being able to understand well, on the other side. So, the only suggestion I can give is, not letting that understandable excuse appear on the other side.
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:47   Link #1299
dagr81
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Join Date: Oct 2004
there is one reason and one reason alone Sharingan is better than Byukugan
and the reason is





one of the main charactors has Sharingan
there is no reason to advance the Byukugan
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Old 2007-02-26, 16:48   Link #1300
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
yeah ill put on ultimate syndicate zone or something .

i geuss from all the posts my are worse shame on my rurik's english is great. The Dude actually made another 50 + line post without reading the part about dictionary's and definition of words namely speed. Btw sazelyt how can i understand or talk with him if doenst know what the words even mean or admit he made a mistake?

Yeah your right my english is that nice to read due to the fact that im just lazy to go change every word but for that matter i can do the same withe rurik posts. Wwhich isnt the big issue its the underlying meaning not mitypo's

The point is, I know very well the definition of speed and everything related to Physics, given my Mayor touch to subject in a very explicit manner. So I donít need to go to A dictionary, left alone to explain why a Magical artifact can copy an Magical concept.
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