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View Poll Results: Byukugan or sharingan?
Byukugan 407 35.51%
Sharingan 647 56.46%
Neither 92 8.03%
Voters: 1146. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-04-13, 03:28   Link #141
Palani
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Sharingan over Byukugan for sure. Why you ask, eeeh, Red Eyes anyone.
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Old 2004-04-13, 05:18   Link #142
rock and stones
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we havent seen a fight between neji and sasuke (sharingan vs byakugan) and its been said that sharingan evolved from the byakugan bloodline. if so, shouldn't they counter each other seeing that they were from the same family. i'm just guessing
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Old 2004-04-13, 07:55   Link #143
tramadrama
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The Truth About Byakugan SPOILER!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by smee
I would rather have byukugan cuz u get a 360 degree view and it looks pretty darn cool. sharingan looks cool too but i think byukugan is more usefull.
Got to go with Sharingan, college can go a whole lot quicker this way lol. The truth about byakugan..View this at your own risk. IT IS A SPOILER!!!!
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-13, 08:02   Link #144
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oh you mean the
Spoiler:
believe me Hunter-san knows it
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Old 2004-04-13, 08:03   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Nine Devil
oh you mean the
Spoiler:
believe me Hunter-san knows it
Yeppers!!!
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Old 2004-04-13, 09:45   Link #146
nh1
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Though it's not exactly
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Palani
Red Eyes anyone.
Are you mocking Lst2touchdasky? 'Cause if you are:
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Old 2004-04-20, 05:01   Link #147
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No one has really fully posted on the capabilities of both. First of all, I hope this isn't really off topic, but I might as well say that this is really Uchiha vs Hyuuga. Every move either clan does that is unique to them is related to or developed by their abilities.

I'll address the easier (and "weaker" IMO) of the two first:

Byakugan - This ability is described IN FULL in the anime. We know it provides roughtly 360 degree sight. It provides the ability to see through solid objects and see chakra flow and tenketsu's on another's body. The Hyuuga are also capable of releasing chakra better from all over their body and enables them to do Kaiten. Another top level technique of this clan is the Hakke-Sho move which hits all 64-tenketsu and completely shuts off any normal ninja's chakra.

First let me say, the advantages of the Hyuuga abilities are quite obvious, which is what seems to attract many of its fanboys.

But then we see that "obvious advantages" turn into "huge pitholes." See behind you? Wow, that seems really advantageous!!! First of all, consider that no other ability but Hyuuga that we know of allows people to see behind them. What on earth makes this a huge disadvantage on the battlefield? Character's in Naruto's world definitely have a sense for what is behind them already. Regardless of if they can directly see behind them or not, it is shown directly that simple attacks coming from behind are easily detected by people without Hyuuga abilities. For one, remember Naruto not being able to get Kakashi from behind. There are PLENY of other examples of characters that dodge attacks coming from behind, so 360 degrees of sight is not a clear advantage. Beyond the 360 degree vision, we can generally infer that Byakugan gives some increased direct vision of seeing fast moving targets like Lee. Of course Sharingan has the same advantage too so this isn't something it has that is unique.

Also, the tenketsu. The direct application of seeing them is to use them against the opponent. That obviously requires the Hyuuga member to go upclose and complete outclass the person who they are fighting against in hand to hand combat. I doubt Neji could easily hit Lee or even Sasuke's tenketsu's. Even if they aren't as fast, they are defensive enough to back off from something blatantly going for it. And for Hiashi's level, same thing if he were to fight Kakashi or Gai. Basically, in order for this "advantage" of the Hyuuga clan to be exploited, we see that they have to definitely outclass generally who they are fighting against. Another suggested application is seeing how a justsu works? I really doubt this one. Although they might see how the chakra flows and is converted to some sort of energy or attack, they certainly can't reproduce it or forsee what could happen.

Kaiten - as far as absolute defenses go. You can find more information in the battle of the absolute defenses thread, but I'll talk about it a little bit here. I won't disagree that this is a very effective technique and makes it incredibly hard for a Hyuuga clan member to get hit by physical attacks that come close enough. The problem with the move in general use is that we can't affirm that it can defend against fire/lightning based justsus. Basically anything that doesn't have a physical form, we haven't seen it defend against. I personally doubt it can defend those types of attacks, and if it can, then it still wouldn't do so effectively as for the kaiten user to feel nothing from the attack. Of course, if I were to put this in context of this discussion, I don't think Kaiten could defend against Sharingan "eye" attacks which I will get to.

EDIT: Removed an invalid example of someone evading an attack coming from behind. I'm sure you can find pleny other examples of this happening.
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Old 2004-04-20, 05:01   Link #148
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Sharingan - This ability I don't think has yet been fully explained by anyone in the anime. We see a set of instances that cover the basics of the ability but not once is everything it offers shown or revealed to us. I will limit my discussion to what we know pretty much but keep what I said in mind. Even the supporters of Sharingan on this thread I feel have left a great deal out.

First of all, the basic ability of the sharingan is to copy jutsu. We see Kakashi do it and Sasuke do it. Whooptee do. The advantage here is clear. How it works though is a bit of a mystery though. We can infer that it somehow reveals the operation of a jutsu in a way that involves chakra and can "see" what the opponent is doing beyond plain sight of hand seals. I guess you can ignore what I said and just take home the fact that sharingan can copy justsu. Don't be stupid and think that it is the main point of the ability just because Kakashi is considered a "copy ninja."
Spoiler:


The next big ability:
Spoiler:


Not done yet - one thing that no one probably remember that much is back during the Sasuke vs Orochimaru fight(or testing of Sasuke's ability). We see Sasuke break out some weird stringy move with shurikens. I recall Orochimaru saying it was "Sharingan-Controlled Triple Windmill Blades," and of course while he was performing the jutsu we see Sasuke's eyes in the sharingan mode. Somehow the ability was able to control the shurikens mid flight judging by the name of this move and what was going on. You could argue against this because you do see Sasuke pulling on the strings a bit, but the name of the jutsu implies that it is being controlled by a sharingan user.

Also the "foresight" that the sharigan offers is a great advantage for a ninja to have. Knowing the justsu that the enemy is about to use is of course a major advantage in evading, or countering the attack that will come. Of course a big flaw I do see in this would be someone using it too directly and reacting in obvious ways to obvious attacks which would lead an enemy like Shikamaru to lead the sharingan user into a trap. If we assume both fighters are "good" ninja's, this foresight wouldn't provide as much of a direct advantage.

On small thing I have to say about the sharingan is that I recall it being related to the user's chakra in an boosting sense. Don't quote me or argue religiously against me on that point because I do have to re-read/re-watch whatever part either implied or said that it gives the user increased chakra levels in the sharingan state. Also, recall that sharingan has not been fully explained as far as what it can "see" at this point in the series. We only know the effects of certain moves it entails.

By far though, against Naruto world enemies that are strong, sharingan would defeat many more strong foes. The fact that you have to seriously outclass an opponent in order to hit their 64 tenketsu and be in close range make Hakke-sho a lot less than spectacular. Don't get me wrong, the effect of this move is as "fight deciding" as the special form of the sharingan. It's wonderful, but execution isn't a walk in the park vs a good ninja. Ask yourself how easy it would be to punch a jounin in the face - obviously he would evade such an attack. 64 hits would be infinitely harder to pull off. Then we look at the special form of the sharingan and how much easier it is to pull off and results in equally devasting effects.

Against each other, a fight couldn't be decided if it were limited to the abilities of the clans. Nothing says that a Hyuuga member cannot defend himself against the special form of the sharingan. Nothing says that a Hyuuga member would also lose against whatever jutsu the sharingan user has copied. We also cannot say that a Hyuuga member would easily hit a user of sharingan with Hakke-sho or just plain defeat them in a close range combat battle unless you are assuming that the sharingan user is pretty weak in hand to hand combat. Against kaiten...all I can say is that this is a defensive manuever that requires pretty close combat. Nonetheless there is a start up time for this move, and I'm sure sharingan user could see this one coming a mile away. I would expect even a normal ninja on the same level would see something is happening and move away. Beyond that, even getting hit by kaiten doesn't do much more than knock the opponent back unless the guy is putting all his force into directly countering the kaiten. In which case, a strong enough person would inflict damage on the kaiten user as what happened between Naruto and Neji.

The other "mysterious" abilites of the sharingan seems to give members of Uchiha generally better ninja abilities which I think is enough to tip the outcome of a fight happening between them in their favor.

Really though, I think a relatively fair way to compare the two clan abilities is to compare Itachi vs Hiashi. You might be able to argue that Hiashi isn't a prodigy but he certainly has mastered all of the Hyuuga techniques. I don't think anyone in their right mind who understands Naruto(the anime/manga as a whole) would think that Hiashi would defeat someone like Itachi. Of course, imagining a fight between them is a little hard to imagine first off and I'm pretty sure it will never happen.

Spoiler:


Note: I had to split my post in two because of the length.

EDIT: Added my new signature =)
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Last edited by EbonySeraphim; 2004-04-20 at 05:15.
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Old 2004-04-20, 05:59   Link #149
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Quote:
Really though, I think a relatively fair way to compare the two clan abilities is to compare Itachi vs Hiashi. You might be able to argue that Hiashi isn't a prodigy but he certainly has mastered all of the Hyuuga techniques. I don't think anyone in their right mind who understands Naruto(the anime/manga as a whole) would think that Hiashi would defeat someone like Itachi. Of course, imagining a fight between them is a little hard to imagine first off and I'm pretty sure it will never happen.
It's one thing to master them, it's another to excell in them. Itachi may not be the only one who mastered all the Uchiha abilities but he clearly is superior if he is credited with defeating the clan with it.

It's not a fair evaluation to say one eye ability is better than the other because one individual of one can beat perhaps the best at the moment of the other clan. That is heavily dependent on individual and emphasizes their own abilities more than purely the bloodline.

However, with all doubts aside, Sharingan seems more useful right now in the manga from what we have seen. It may be weaker in seeing chakra as clearly, however, as far as I am concerned, it's clearn enough for me.

EPYON
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Old 2004-04-20, 10:04   Link #150
raikage
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I'm still not entirely sure why everyone seems to have this huge idea that we've seen the entire potential of the Byakugan while the Sharingan has some sort of untapped powers.
Spoiler:


In other words, I don't think that Neji or Hiashi have mastered the Byakugan to the extent that Itachi has mastered his Sharingan, meaning people are comparing a finished product to one still under construction - which, if my theory is true, makes for a very unfair competition.

EbonySeraphim, it may be true that a Byakugan user should outclass his/her opponent to be able to land all 64 hits in a single strike. However, even if the Byakugan user could shut down two or three, that MAY be enough. If you were to disable the chakra flowing to someone's hands, they probably would not be able to use their jutsus that require hand seals (unless my old theory about not needing hand seals for jutsus is true) and the opponent would not be able to shift chakra into the hands for punches, eliminating the super-strength that shinobis seem to have.
Same principle for the legs - cut the chakra and all of a sudden the enemy can't run as fast or do those crazy jumps, since he can no longer shift chakra there.
If a Byakugan user were to get a Sharingan user in the neck, then the Sharingan may be disabled.

And, don't forget the unique taijutsu style of which the 64 Hands is just one move - even grazing the opponent is enough to insert chakra into the enemy and seriously mess him up.

The Sharingan Triple Windmill Blades (in the manga, it doesn't say Sharingan-controlled) uses the eyes to determine which way the opponent might run and cuts off the path of escape. The eyes don't really control the blades.

The Kaiten - unfortuantely, yes, the animators decided to create a warm-up time for this jutsu. In the manga, it seems to be implied that Neji can create it instantly.
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Old 2004-04-20, 10:25   Link #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tramadrama
Got to go with Sharingan, college can go a whole lot quicker this way lol. The truth about byakugan..View this at your own risk. IT IS A SPOILER!!!!
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-20, 10:40   Link #152
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I'll go with Sharingan although i absolutely love the Byakukan and the Jyuuken, i think that in the overall the Sharingan has more advantages for a Shinobi then the Byakukan.
With Byakukan you get pretty much ownage in close range, attacks that can kill in one hit, a almost unbeatable defence has well as one wicked insight vision, but Sharingan gives the ability to copy Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu and that's just too damn cheap, further more it also allows to read the opponent movements and nullify almost all genjutsu.
Spoiler:

So Overall i think both Bloodlines are cool and most of all really cheap, but Sharingan really is too damn much.
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Old 2004-04-20, 11:07   Link #153
nh1
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I need to know something about Sharingan.
Spoiler for Manga:

I don't know if that picture was against the rules, but I'll of course remove it, if it is...

Edit: Removed the picture and made a quote instead, because I'm not sure what's exactly licensed.
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Old 2004-04-20, 12:50   Link #154
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Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-20, 14:04   Link #155
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i'll chose byakugan, reasons : it would rock in cheating at tests, could c everybody and instead of sharingan that woulkd copy the others move excactly i could read their answers and write it in my own way. Also the 360 degrees angle of sigt would be great for martial arts for a good overview. Also in soccer i would be able to predict any person behgind me and around me so i could make a good decision out of what i can see.

But i wouldnt say now to sharingan either, could copy any type of martial arts yust by 1 look, or any other thing i would found interesting.
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Old 2004-04-20, 14:59   Link #156
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hence your avatar.

but then comes a problem- can your brain actually process all of that information at once? and if so, would being aware of most everything around you help you that much?
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Old 2004-04-20, 19:22   Link #157
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I thank goodness there are threads like this around that are still reasonable and I don't get crap replies from.

epyon96: Finally some valid arguments made against mine that are valid. The only line I have to give to pay close attention to is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
Really though, I think a relatively fair way to compare the two clan abilities is to compare Itachi vs Hiashi.
That was all a matter of my opinion. I don't care if you completely disagree with it. I see that the opinion isn't "completely" right, but rather I think it is "relatively fair." (Note that that was also an opinion of mine - let's not get too many levels deep here).

raikage: The idea that Byakugan is fully explored while Sharingan isn't comes from what we have been presented with in the anime. Byakugan when it first appears during Hinata vs Neji got a full explanation from Kakashi and Gai. The only other ability we see as part of their bloodline limit was kaiten with Neji and there wasn't so much more commentary on the eyes. It's abilities were obvious at that point. With sharingan, we see it appear in the copying form first with Kakashi. It does not get an explanation on how it does so. Later (as I pointed out in my post) we see this move that Sasuke does that is controlling windmill blades using the sharingan - again with no explanation. We also see that Sasuke copies Lee's taijutsu style and maybe even speed(which isn't a ninjutsu) with his sharingan. This further mystifies how it does so. Even later we see:
Spoiler:

Given all of that, you have to at least agree somewhat with the notion that Sharingan is largely explored and yet Byakugan is relatively fully explored. You are right about the Byakugan though. I'm sure there are other abilities (at least I hope) that can be developed from it. So far nothing new has been shown...
Spoiler:


You are also right that it was said that even if you get grazed by such attacks from the Jyuken style that it can be devastating to the chakra system of an opponent. Still, that doesn't make it that much easier to accomplish as we see that Hinata with obviously lesser physical ability than Neji defend herself well in a fight against him. To defend the possibility of someone bringing up that she also has Byakugan, it should be stated that it doesn't give the Hyuuga clan the ability to defend themselves from their own attacks. Hinata was still basically blocking physical attacks coming from Neji as anyone would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
The Sharingan Triple Windmill Blades (in the manga, it doesn't say Sharingan-controlled) uses the eyes to determine which way the opponent might run and cuts off the path of escape. The eyes don't really control the blades.

The Kaiten - unfortuantely, yes, the animators decided to create a warm-up time for this jutsu. In the manga, it seems to be implied that Neji can create it instantly.
I would love to believe you on the first part of that quote, but you're gonna have to tell me where the information that says what you said. For reference, I belive what you said make's much more sense than whatever "mystery" may be behind the eyes, but I can't be too sure that you aren't just making it up =)

About the latter part...I guess this is only a matter of interpretation. We see how the animators interpret it. If you consider them a higher authority on the matter then you would probably believe them. I can infer that you don't though. I can agree with your view though, and it would make kaiten a much more effective offensive move. Though one point against it being instant - if that was possible how come it didn't "instantly" start when Naruto was charging at him?
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Old 2004-04-20, 19:28   Link #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
I thank goodness there are threads like this around that are still reasonable and I don't get crap replies from.

epyon96: Finally some valid arguments made against mine that are valid. The only line I have to give to pay close attention to is:

About the latter part...I guess this is only a matter of interpretation. We see how the animators interpret it. If you consider them a higher authority on the matter then you would probably believe them. I can infer that you don't though. I can agree with your view though, and it would make kaiten a much more effective offensive move. Though one point against it being instant - if that was possible how come it didn't "instantly" start when Naruto was charging at him?
Because Naruto is fast and Neji was caught off guard. It has relatively minimal startup time otherwise. Remember that time when Naruto tried to punch him from point blank range or when Hiashi did his kaiten? Very little startup time.

..ok..just by calling my previous arguments invalid because you choose to flame them instead does not make yours any more valid.

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Old 2004-04-20, 21:06   Link #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epyon96
Because Naruto is fast and Neji was caught off guard. It has relatively minimal startup time otherwise. Remember that time when Naruto tried to punch him from point blank range or when Hiashi did his kaiten? Very little startup time.
Off gaurd when Neji was looking right into his eyes the whole time during the charge? Very little startup time is long "time" away from raikage's classifcation of "instant." I prefer an answer from raikage as that was directed towards him and he is best qualified to answer the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epyon96
..ok..just by calling my previous arguments invalid because you choose to flame them instead does not make yours any more valid.

EPYON
Replied to in relevant thread.
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Old 2004-04-20, 21:24   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
Given all of that, you have to at least agree somewhat with the notion that Sharingan is largely explored and yet Byakugan is relatively fully explored. You are right about the Byakugan though. I'm sure there are other abilities (at least I hope) that can be developed from it. So far nothing new has been shown...
Spoiler:


You are also right that it was said that even if you get grazed by such attacks from the Jyuken style that it can be devastating to the chakra system of an opponent. Still, that doesn't make it that much easier to accomplish as we see that Hinata with obviously lesser physical ability than Neji defend herself well in a fight against him. To defend the possibility of someone br inging up that she also has Byakugan, it should be stated that it doesn't give the Hyuuga clan the ability to defend themselves from their own attacks. Hinata wasstill basically blocking physical attacks coming from Neji as anyone would do.


I would love to believe you on the first part of that quote, but you're gonna have to tell me where the information that says what you said. For reference, I belive what you said make's much more sense than whatever "mystery" may be behind the eyes, but I can't be too sure that you aren't just making it up =)

About the latter part...I guess this is only a matter of interpretation. We see how the animators interpret it. If you consider them a higher authority on the matter then you would probably believe them. I can infer that you don't though. I can agree with your view though, and it would make kaiten a much more effective offensive move. Though one point against it being instant - if that was possible how come it didn't "instantly" start when Naruto was charging at him?
I don't HAVE to agree with anything you say ...just kidding. I'm trying to fight this idea people seem to have that every single possible Byakugan strategy/possibility has been explored thouroughly while people have only begun to scratch the surface of the Sharingan.

Sasuke copies Rock Lee's taijutsu style...never mind. I don't really believe he did - though it's an old argument that was never fully proven/disproven, though Hunter came really damn close (and we both conceded points, too!).

About the Triple Windmill Blade - the translated manga I read doesn't say "Sharingan-controlled". It's possible the raw does and the translators chose not to include it. I don't have the anime on me (I lent it to a friend and haven't gotten it back yet), so I can't listen to the words and try to figure it out.
Rereading the manga closely, though, it seems as though the technique uses only two weapons - one shuriken and one kunai. The shuriken has a string on it which loops back around the tree attached to the kunai. The kunai, when thrown, pulls back on the shuriken in an attempt to decapitate the enemy. The Sharingan apparently plays absolutely no role in the use of the technique - other than reading which way the enemy will dodge and adjusting the string accordingly.

Neji didn't want to end his battle with Hinata quickly - I thought it was made fairly obvious that he wanted to hurt her badly. Rather, he prolonged the fight by hitting her tenketsus one by one while somehow letting her think that they were still active AND allowing her to still move. He didn't use 64 Hands to shut down her chakra network.

You're right in that whenever the anime and manga conflict or give different messages, I choose the manga. Always.

Sasuke didn't copy Lee's speed - he trained. If Sasuke were to see someone bench-pressing a tank, it would be fairly ridiculous to assume that he could do it too. And, during the prelims when Sasuke used that little bit of Rock's taijutsu, Gai said that the Sharingan alone can't copy taijutsu to that degree. This means that a copied taijutsu won't be perfect - which leads back into my old theory that the Sharingan can copy gross physical movements. Jutsus are easy because they use hand seals.

Anyway, though, there is one other element to the Byakugan that people seem to have missed - the fact that one can focus its vision and see long-distance. During the Forest of Death, Hinata looked about 1 km and clearly saw Gaara, being able to pinpoint him in a second. This is useful in non-combat situations such as spying or scouting, something the Sharingan gives very little advantage for.

And, since you asked, the Kaiten didn't work as effectively because either
It couldn't deflect that much chakra - but, as long as you aren't fighting against someone with the ability to tap into the power of one of the 9 Great Demons, that point doesn't really matter.
The spin didn't finish - which seems to be what you're leaning towards. Neji began the Kaiten when it occured to him to do so. He didn't finish because he didn't have the time to finish, which is different than a warm-up time. Imagine racing a car with an automatic transmission (to simplify things from a stick) - as soon as you hit the gas, the car goes. But, when the light turns green, if you aren't completely on top of your game, you miss the cue and the other car gains a lead. It has nothing to do with delay of the car, but rather that of the driver.
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