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Old 2010-09-28, 21:05   Link #27281
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
Dammit, guys.
I did tell you about keeping it subtle.

Awkward situation + daughter shouting lolicon = far from it.
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Old 2010-09-28, 21:36   Link #27282
Kaijo
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Originally Posted by Yasanagi View Post
Anyone else we're missing in this epic?
There's a few people from over the collected series I haven't mentioned in one form or another.... yet.^^

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Corrections in quote.

Whoo! I got it right!

An interesting chapter, though I figured the whole undead army thing when Einhart said a shipment came in. Tying it back to the scene with the coffins made it pretty apparent.

About Ix, though... I don't agree with your characterization of her. Being older than she looks, she's actually quite wise and mature, so I definitely don't think she'd be all child like and calling Vivio and Einhart her mamas. Heck, she's older than them and if the events of SSX didn't change that much, Ix and Vivio knew each other back then briefly.

I get what you're trying to do with the whole Nanoha and Fate parrallel, and being ambiguous about Vivio and Einhart being a couple or not, but I don't think it's proper for Ix to be the one to introduce that. Hell, giving them a little orphan girl that some how stumbled down the hole while escaping from a wild animal would work better. Having Ix be the daughter feels OOC to me. If Ix would view anyone like that, it'd be Subaru, but SSX had that come off as a friendly/sisterly thing.

To further this, Vivio has known Ix for years and considered her a friend even when she was in her coma. To switch to being her 'mama' just doesn't work. You're friends with some one for over 50 years, so how easy could it be to suddenly view them as your daughter?

Other than that point, everything works well.
Talked with you on AIM a bit about this, and we'll have to disagree a bit for now. I'll see if anyone else has issues, but I do have plans to show how their characters developed this way in the next chapter. I at least hoped I've hinted that Ix is Nanoha-mature for her biological age, since she's only living the waking hours of a girl her age, but still does possess a child-like side that has been allowed to come out.

Again, I'll get into the three's development to this point in the next chapter, but I don't want to go into it too much here for those who don't want spoilers. I would talk about it a bit about the next chapter developments in PM's or IM's if anyone wants, but people can still vote or talk about if they see Ix's development as plausible. I admit part of it is me wanting to draw parallels, and using an established character rather than a random orphan they might have taken in, but I could create an OC orphan as well.

But thanks for the other corrections, and I'll think about things, depending on what others may say.^^

In other news, I could give a glimpse of the upcoming Nanoha/Fate encounter...

Spoiler for SUPER SEKRITZ SPOILRZ!:


Lastly, I'll chime in on the OC business, because I think I feel the same as Nanya. I don't hate them, just kinda dislike them because they generally have a habit of overshadowing the main cast. I'd rather get away with using an established character where I can, and if I do introduce OC's, use them to complement the mains at best. Part of the fun and challenge I find in writing is in creating situations that can alter the cast's personalities and such to be what I need; the challenge of getting there, rather than just creating a character on the spot. As such, an OC's I use are generally one-shots.
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Old 2010-09-28, 21:38   Link #27283
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Hmm, I needed a break from SCV *chuckles* Orders Captain?

So i decided to do another little drabble.

Spoiler for Part 10 i guess.:


Link to older

I dare you to click this.
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Old 2010-09-28, 22:50   Link #27284
00-Raiser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Talked with you on AIM a bit about this, and we'll have to disagree a bit for now. I'll see if anyone else has issues, but I do have plans to show how their characters developed this way in the next chapter. I at least hoped I've hinted that Ix is Nanoha-mature for her biological age, since she's only living the waking hours of a girl her age, but still does possess a child-like side that has been allowed to come out.

Again, I'll get into the three's development to this point in the next chapter, but I don't want to go into it too much here for those who don't want spoilers. I would talk about it a bit about the next chapter developments in PM's or IM's if anyone wants, but people can still vote or talk about if they see Ix's development as plausible. I admit part of it is me wanting to draw parallels, and using an established character rather than a random orphan they might have taken in, but I could create an OC orphan as well.
Ix was awake for random periods of time, so it's not like she's only experienced a few hours each time she wakes up. Even so, that's like saying the Wolkenritter are mentally only a few years old because they were only active for a few months at a time. Plus everything that Ix has seen would certainly force her to mature mentally very fast. Portraying her as having a mental age where she'd call members of her peer group her mothers is not only OOC, but I feel quite insulting to her intelligence.

I know you want to use an established character to make a parallel, but when you have to change that character to make it work, you probably shouldn't do it.
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Old 2010-09-28, 22:55   Link #27285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbird View Post
Hmm, I needed a break from SCV *chuckles* Orders Captain?

So i decided to do another little drabble.

Spoiler for Part 10 i guess.:


Link to older

I dare you to click this.
Hoo, haven't seen an update for this in awhile.

A little mixed over Fate's reaction to Yuuno's joke; I know it's meant as a funny thing and all, but somehow I can't see her reacting that way. Of course, you also have to consider what she's been through recently with Nanoha, but.... I don't know. It was funny, but it also kind of bothered me a bit since it seemed OOC for Fate to act that way, even if it's someone she likes around other girls. Maybe it's just me.

Also... why can't I see acting especially professional around Nanoha will end very, very badly?
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Old 2010-09-29, 00:15   Link #27286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Ix was awake for random periods of time, so it's not like she's only experienced a few hours each time she wakes up. Even so, that's like saying the Wolkenritter are mentally only a few years old because they were only active for a few months at a time. Plus everything that Ix has seen would certainly force her to mature mentally very fast. Portraying her as having a mental age where she'd call members of her peer group her mothers is not only OOC, but I feel quite insulting to her intelligence.

I know you want to use an established character to make a parallel, but when you have to change that character to make it work, you probably shouldn't do it.
Well...

It could be more along the lines of Ixy finally getting to act the way she wants to without people forcing her to be a weapon.

She has people who are letting her live how she wants, so...

Ixy: WHOOSH!
Einhart; It's time...
Ixy: *Gets serious* Alright.
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Old 2010-09-29, 00:29   Link #27287
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Well...

It could be more along the lines of Ixy finally getting to act the way she wants to without people forcing her to be a weapon.

She has people who are letting her live how she wants, so...

Ixy: WHOOSH!
Einhart; It's time...
Ixy: *Gets serious* Alright.
Yes, that's perfectly fine, but I think it's wrong that she views Vivio and Einhart as her mothers. Friends? Sure. Sisters? Most definitely. But mothers? No, that doesn't sit right with me.
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Old 2010-09-29, 01:55   Link #27288
shiroi mahotsukai
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Yes, that's perfectly fine, but I think it's wrong that she views Vivio and Einhart as her mothers. Friends? Sure. Sisters? Most definitely. But mothers? No, that doesn't sit right with me.
I agree with you there, it seems quite unlikely Ixy sees them as mothers. Then again maybe she had parental issues when she was younger and is now desperate enough to do such a thing, not likely but a thought.
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Old 2010-09-29, 03:56   Link #27289
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Old 2010-09-29, 07:35   Link #27290
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On OC's, I'm heavily biased on this since I love to make OC's, but to me they never feel like cheating. Sure, if there is a situation where an established character can do things just as easily as an OC, there's no reason to create an OC just for that situation, but expanding on the existing roster can help to keep things fresh and new, and sometimes they can even help in situations where putting an established character would feel forced. In the case of villains particularly OC's are almost invaluable to prevent Orochimaru Syndrome.

I view OC's not as a cheat, but as a challenge. As was mentioned earlier, OC's can have a tendency to overshadow the main cast, and that is exactly where the challenge is. I'd hazard to say that writing a good OC, one that fits and is accepted by the readers to the point where they wish he or she was an established character, is even harder than writing a fic with purely established characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
Hey Nanya. You asked for it, so here it is.

Spoiler for Side Due X:
... You know that this short is going to make me pester you about what happened with the family during StrikerS, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiroi mahotsukai View Post
I agree with you there, it seems quite unlikely Ixy sees them as mothers. Then again maybe she had parental issues when she was younger and is now desperate enough to do such a thing, not likely but a thought.
Could be, but that's still a stretch. The entire ordeal just feels like "I want to give Einhart and Vivio a Vivio of their own just like Nanoha and Fate!" That might not have been the intent, but that certainly is how it appears to me.

Ix has been displayed as a mature character, yet this fic treats her as if she has only slightly above StrikerS-Vivio level intelligence and maturity. Ein teaching a king of an entire undead army who has been through god knows how many wars about killing intent? Really?
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Old 2010-09-29, 09:06   Link #27291
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post

Ix has been displayed as a mature character, yet this fic treats her as if she has only slightly above StrikerS-Vivio level intelligence and maturity. Ein teaching a king of an entire undead army who has been through god knows how many wars about killing intent? Really?
Or maybe Ix had actually refused to use the Mariages for battle (just like SSX) and Vivio had to brainwash her...

Anything for the revolution!

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Old 2010-09-29, 09:43   Link #27292
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Originally Posted by Thunderbird View Post
Hmm, I needed a break from SCV *chuckles* Orders Captain?

So i decided to do another little drabble.

Spoiler for Part 10 i guess.:


Link to older

I dare you to click this.
*Slaps forehead* Gah! I didn't realise this was another chapter of Searching Hearts! If I knew I would have read it straight away!

Anyways, glad Yuuno and Fate finally decided to be open about things. I suppose her reaction to the joke is a bit OOC like RB said, but I think it's acceptable given the situation. Yuuno made the implication that he had dates with other girls lined up, so I'm sure Fate wouldn't be happy with the idea that he'd been fooling around with other girls the entire time.

I just hope Nanoha will be able to handle things, though really she has no right to be bothered by it. She lost the both of them due to her own actions so she can't blame anyone but herself. Cheering Nanoha up is apparently Hayate's job, though

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Or maybe Ix had actually refused to use the Mariages for battle (just like SSX) and Vivio had to brainwash her...

Anything for the revolution!

That's actually a really good idea. Maybe they did alter Ix so she'd view Vivio as her mother, and as such Ix would 'choose' to make Mariages due to the implanted loyalty. It makes sense to do such a thing, since the plan is too precise to allow for the possibility of Ix refusing to help.

It would also cause some good drama between Vivio and Nanoha when it came to light.

Nanoha: Vivio, how could you!
Vivio: I'm sorry mama, but I had to!

Would really drive home the "ends justify the means" theme.
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Old 2010-09-29, 09:48   Link #27293
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Cheering Nanoha up is apparently Hayate's job, though
Somehow, I get the feeling that this was all some major plot so Hayate could get Nanoha all to herself. *shot*
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Old 2010-09-29, 09:56   Link #27294
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Could be, but that's still a stretch. The entire ordeal just feels like "I want to give Einhart and Vivio a Vivio of their own just like Nanoha and Fate!" That might not have been the intent, but that certainly is how it appears to me.

Ix has been displayed as a mature character, yet this fic treats her as if she has only slightly above StrikerS-Vivio level intelligence and maturity. Ein teaching a king of an entire undead army who has been through god knows how many wars about killing intent? Really?
Ix isn't a fighter. If someone attacked you, could you tell the difference between them wanting to kill you, or just wanting to rough you up? You probably wouldn't know which it was until you were beat up enough that they finally went ahead and killed you. That's what I liken this to.

While I'm still considering angles here (and given that there is talk, that at least means I haven't gotten ideas across), Ix definitely isn't "slightly above StrikerS level intelligence." Regardless of all else, she is still a young girl, and has been given the chance to act like a child. It's partly an act, although after a couple of years, she's really gotten into it, enjoying the chance to actually be a kid. People change over time, and part of the problem is you haven't seen that change yet.

And as I tried to get across (although this will be explored more next chapter), she still has that mature side of her. She wouldn't be a serious person all the time, especially with people who can show her how to have fun.

If you woke up 1000 years from now, would you feel older than someone else your own biological age? That's kind of how I approach this, and what the challenge is: to show that not only is she a mature war-torn individual scarred by people using her to make weapons, but that there is a young girl in there who is being given the second chance at childhood.

And yes, I'll admit that it partly was an attempt to mirror the whole Nanoha/Fate/Vivio thing, with the adoption of a Belkan king while keeping any relationship that may or may not be present ambiguous, heh.

Anyway, I'm still looking over where I need to go and what I need to do with this fic, and considering how I might rewrite things. Like I said before, I haven't been able to explain exactly how their characters have developed to this point, which is something I have planned for next chapter (along with some Fate). I suppose it might be helpful if I could run down how I developed her with a few people, to see if it comes across clearly, but that would entail people getting some spoilers for next chapter.

If interested, PM or IM me and I'll give a brief rundown for how things went.
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Old 2010-09-29, 10:13   Link #27295
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Giving her a chance at childhood is all well and good, but you can give her that without her having her friend become her mother.

If it's done as some elaborate game of house, that could work. Sure, such a role play wouldn't reflect well on their mental state, but that could be understandable given the circumstances.

At the very least when Ix enters 'serious mode' I think she should drop the 'mamas.' And when Nanoha initially questions Vivio about it, Vivio should explain "Well... At first it was a game but it kind of stuck..."
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Old 2010-09-29, 11:06   Link #27296
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Somehow, I get the feeling that this was all some major plot so Hayate could get Nanoha all to herself. *shot*
If that's the case, shouldn't she just clone her years ago?...

...unless, she previously refused anything but the original flavour, and is now torn between wanting to kill her or ravish her...

...which means in the end, she finally surrenders to Clone-Nanoha's roguish charm and decides that a clone is fine t- [DIABOLIC EMISSIONED]
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Old 2010-09-29, 12:06   Link #27297
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In non-Ixy-related news, I sent Allquall a message about the removal of [M]Other Love. His response was that he took it down because it'd been complete and up for a while, and that there were other great works for Nanoha in FF.net, and he wanted to make room for those.
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Old 2010-09-29, 12:27   Link #27298
Keroko
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Ix isn't a fighter. If someone attacked you, could you tell the difference between them wanting to kill you, or just wanting to rough you up? You probably wouldn't know which it was until you were beat up enough that they finally went ahead and killed you. That's what I liken this to.

While I'm still considering angles here (and given that there is talk, that at least means I haven't gotten ideas across), Ix definitely isn't "slightly above StrikerS level intelligence." Regardless of all else, she is still a young girl, and has been given the chance to act like a child. It's partly an act, although after a couple of years, she's really gotten into it, enjoying the chance to actually be a kid. People change over time, and part of the problem is you haven't seen that change yet.

And as I tried to get across (although this will be explored more next chapter), she still has that mature side of her. She wouldn't be a serious person all the time, especially with people who can show her how to have fun.

If you woke up 1000 years from now, would you feel older than someone else your own biological age? That's kind of how I approach this, and what the challenge is: to show that not only is she a mature war-torn individual scarred by people using her to make weapons, but that there is a young girl in there who is being given the second chance at childhood.
Herein lies the problem though. You're assuming Ix is mentally still a child, that her total amount of 'I have been awake' time is around the ten-ish-or-so years. However, you neglect that Ix was an actual ruler (tyrant, even, if one believes the history texts) which means that A, she was still very much awake and B, as much the wielder as the wielded.

She's not a child like Vivio who was used, she was an actual ruler. Less Vivio, more Olivie. Yes, she later came to regret her actions and even her existence, but that doesn't change that she hardly is some scarred child forced to do things she couldn't even comprehend. Like the Wolkenritter, she is far older than she seems, and that includes mentally.
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Old 2010-09-29, 12:32   Link #27299
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I say, before we tell Kaijo to change it completely...

Let's at least see the next part of this story.

But, Kaijo, don't post it to FF.Net until then at least.

That way, we can see just how Ixy became the way she did in this story.

But, yes, Ixy is way older than she seems...

...

Especially if you consider the song "my friend" and how, if it's directed at Subaru, it makes Ixy seem like she has one HELL of a crush on Subaru.
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Old 2010-09-29, 12:40   Link #27300
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Herein lies the problem though. You're assuming Ix is mentally still a child, that her total amount of 'I have been awake' time is around the ten-ish-or-so years. However, you neglect that Ix was an actual ruler (tyrant, even, if one believes the history texts) which means that A, she was still very much awake and B, as much the wielder as the wielded.

She's not a child like Vivio who was used, she was an actual ruler. Less Vivio, more Olivie. Yes, she later came to regret her actions and even her existence, but that doesn't change that she hardly is some scarred child forced to do things she couldn't even comprehend. Like the Wolkenritter, she is far older than she seems, and that includes mentally.
I'm not so sure about that. Looking at her, she can't be any older than 8 or 9, so I don't see how she could be a tyrant. History is written by the winners, so it wouldn't be a stretch for the winners to write that they considered the enemy ruler a tyrant (something her soldiers might encourage: "Fear our mighty ruler who brings life back to the dead!"). It's more likely Ix was just used, and someone else was the tyrant. She wouldn't be forced to do anything, really; just be hooked up to a sufficient power source to produce mariage cores. In that light, she's just a cog in a machine.

At least, given the lack of exact evidence spelling things out, this is the viewpoint I am taking with this fic.

Part of the problem is that this is the Nanohaverse we're talking about, where Nanoha is an incredibly mature 9 year old, so it's easy to mistake that maturity for an adult. I'm simply taking the viewpoint that, no matter how mature they may seem, there is still a kid in there.

Anyway, I'm in the process of PM'ing you, so hopefully we can work something out. I'm also in the process of rewriting parts of the fic, so don't think I'm not listening to what people are saying; I'm just trying to meld the concerns with the vision I had of where I saw things going.
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