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Old 2009-11-05, 15:23   Link #18361
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Uh... *Scratches head* Isn't that the purpose of fanfiction? To screw with what the creator did and do things your way?
Perhaps I didn't phrase it well enough, and please keep in mind these are my own views.

To me, a fan is someone who likes the show. They like the characters, the setting, the tone, etc. They want to see it continue, and perhaps like to write, and so make create more adventures for the heroes. Some amount of divergence is acceptable, because none of us are the original creators, and we aren't perfect writers.

It's about suspension of disbelief. There's a line for each fanfiction fandom, that once crossed, it no longer seems to be a fic possible in the series universe, for me at least.

To take my example above, say a fic where Chrono becomes a drunk, Amy becomes abusive, and he cheats on her with Arf. Such an author may say "I can do what I want, and I'm just exploring alternative interpretations of the characters that the creator never did." But to me, I can't see these characters acting this way. The fic author may as well give these characters alternate names and make an original fic.

There's a lot you can get away with in the name of humor and spamfics. But for other types, straying outside that boundary means it's no longer a story within the universe. And if it's going to be THAT different, an author may want to re-examine exactly why they are writing for this universe. Perhaps they should branch out into original fiction.

It's about ignoring the heart of the series.

Again, just stating things from how I see them. Obviously not forcing my views on anyone, and people are free to do as they wish. I just don't like seeing fanfiction stray too far outside the boundaries such that it becomes something very different, because I like the series itself. Cue harry Potter slash fics.

And part of this is past personal experience. I became so enamored with a fandom, that I started writing fics to rewrite things in my image; because I wasn't happy with some aspects of the series, and felt that the creator didn't know what he was doing. It led to an obsession and a blindness; my writing degraded and I alienated readers.

I just don't want to see that happen to anyone else. Now I only write if I can get at least 95% behind a series. Make sense?
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Old 2009-11-05, 16:09   Link #18362
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*Nods @ Kaijo* Yeah, that makes sense. OOC fics aren't well liked anyway. ...

Outside of crack humor of course.
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Old 2009-11-05, 16:20   Link #18363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Perhaps I didn't phrase it well enough, and please keep in mind these are my own views.

To me, a fan is someone who likes the show. They like the characters, the setting, the tone, etc. They want to see it continue, and perhaps like to write, and so make create more adventures for the heroes. Some amount of divergence is acceptable, because none of us are the original creators, and we aren't perfect writers.

It's about suspension of disbelief. There's a line for each fanfiction fandom, that once crossed, it no longer seems to be a fic possible in the series universe, for me at least.

To take my example above, say a fic where Chrono becomes a drunk, Amy becomes abusive, and he cheats on her with Arf. Such an author may say "I can do what I want, and I'm just exploring alternative interpretations of the characters that the creator never did." But to me, I can't see these characters acting this way. The fic author may as well give these characters alternate names and make an original fic.

There's a lot you can get away with in the name of humor and spamfics. But for other types, straying outside that boundary means it's no longer a story within the universe. And if it's going to be THAT different, an author may want to re-examine exactly why they are writing for this universe. Perhaps they should branch out into original fiction.

It's about ignoring the heart of the series.

Again, just stating things from how I see them. Obviously not forcing my views on anyone, and people are free to do as they wish. I just don't like seeing fanfiction stray too far outside the boundaries such that it becomes something very different, because I like the series itself. Cue harry Potter slash fics.

And part of this is past personal experience. I became so enamored with a fandom, that I started writing fics to rewrite things in my image; because I wasn't happy with some aspects of the series, and felt that the creator didn't know what he was doing. It led to an obsession and a blindness; my writing degraded and I alienated readers.

I just don't want to see that happen to anyone else. Now I only write if I can get at least 95% behind a series. Make sense?
So basically what you're saying is that you don't like AU fics? Its not about just being able to change the names that makes it an original story. For example, my PornStar!Vivio story. someone in a review said I could just change the names and make it an original fic, but that isn't true because of the little things that tie it into the series. devices used, small winks at the original time line, ect. Although PS!V wasn't really accepted, I can't help but bring up Vampire!Fate as well.

In that story, Fate is outspoken, a vampire, not shy, and generally is 99% OOC for Fate. However, she looks the same, loves children (Erio and Caro), does whatever she can for her friends, carries Bardiche and fights with him, wears teh same type of clothing colors, ect. Fate is still "Fate" but an AU Fate. Same with Nanoha. The sick girl who's shy and doesn't know her place in life or what she wants to do. Despite this, she bakes like her parent's café, she loves the sky, is very indipendant, and wants to live her life to the fullest.

Both of the characters don't use magic, aren't on mid, aren't in the military, and generally aren't near the real characters, but people relate to them and when something is blatantly from the series, its a "neat addition". Fate's motorcycle, for example, looks like Bardiche. Her biker outfit looks like her barrier jacket
Spoiler for image:


What draws people to this is seeing how their characters adapt to their lifestyles. The challenge is for the author to make it still "based off of" without going TOO far away from the source material.

So in general I can see what you're saying, but you don't need to batch that with fanfiction as a whole. Just AU fics. Because fan fiction is, no matter how you put it, a fan writing something that isn't canon because they want to. Forcing their ideas on a character just for the heck of it.
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Old 2009-11-05, 16:44   Link #18364
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
You're going to have to expand on that...Dropping hints into a discussion without explanation is not allowed!
My Nanowrimo so far is a Nanoha fic... but OC-centric on a possible second multi-dimensional government... and what happens when the two governments learn about each other. I'm not hot about it because it's obvious that the setup of the OC group (heroes division) is clearly a reference to Firefly, though the characters are different. Maybe I'll feel better about it as they develop further into characters that clearly aren't Mal and co.

And there are canon characters present, too, but they're not as important to the narrative thus far. (I'm doing this without planning; I have no idea what's gonna happen next)

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Old 2009-11-05, 16:54   Link #18365
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
I'm not hot about it because it's obvious that the setup of the OC group (heroes division) is clearly a reference to Firefly
Oh don't worry about that. A lot of stuff I do is taken right out of other animes and shows too I don't have a single novel idea in my brain. But it's how I use these ideas and combine them together with others is where the novelty comes in.

Like the quote says on my FF.net account: "Literature has always been a huge crucible in which familiar themes are continually recast."
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Old 2009-11-05, 16:59   Link #18366
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Wow lots of chatter might as well throw my own view in.

On OCs: Ocs are a touchy subject I suppose. But I've come to like them, I even have a few *points to the sleeping Inspector in the corner*. You can ask why I don't just write my own fiction but the fact is I do that too. Fanfiction is just a grownup version of those games we play when we're kids where we play out the roles of our favorite characters in new scenarios (it's like rping by yourself ). OCs are just when you decide it'd be fun to play around in that world some more.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Why should there be? You can ask why they don't just use the original characters but really why not? Fanfiction is fun, and to say there's a way things should or should not be done is very silly in my opinion.
I think the problem comes when people approach OCs as tools instead of as characters. That's poor writing right there. I don't think you can approach writing someone as, they have a role to fill and that's it, and do a good job. It's just not possible. The worst OCs I've seen aren't the self-insert characters but really the one where the author just didn't give a crap about them. Characters are characters and they need to be treated as such.
On pairings I tend to only like CCxCC and OCxOC because I find OCxCC tends to be very poorly written. However right now there's a CCxOC pairing buzzing in my ear and annoying bunnies keep forming so perhaps my opinions will change on that soon.


On Fanfiction.

Fanfiction is for fun. I think that's what a lot of people forget. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be critiqued and worked on like any other piece of writing and that doesn't mean it shouldn't be held up to the same standards but that does mean there's a lot more wiggle room. And I think it's important to remember that. There's very little, short of making characters completely ooc, that can be done wrong in fanfiction and I think sometimes we forget that and get caught up in what can and cannot be done.

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Old 2009-11-05, 17:11   Link #18367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Outside of crack humor of course.
Crack humor makes the best kind of OOC fics and shorts.
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:14   Link #18368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Crack humor makes the best kind of OOC fics and shorts.
Though humorously the best Crack is the kind that isn't as much OOC as it is exaggerated humor.
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:38   Link #18369
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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
Though humorously the best Crack is the kind that isn't as much OOC as it is exaggerated humor.
*nod* I agree completely. The best crack isn't the OOC type, which more often than not produces a reply of "Dude, Not Funny" from me, usually with yawns of boredom between the words. The best crack is the kind where I end up rolling on the floor laughing at the joke while saying, "Oh, man, I can totally imagine Zafira doing that!"
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:38   Link #18370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satashi View Post
So basically what you're saying is that you don't like AU fics? Its not about just being able to change the names that makes it an original story. For example, my PornStar!Vivio story. someone in a review said I could just change the names and make it an original fic, but that isn't true because of the little things that tie it into the series. devices used, small winks at the original time line, ect. Although PS!V wasn't really accepted, I can't help but bring up Vampire!Fate as well.

In that story, Fate is outspoken, a vampire, not shy, and generally is 99% OOC for Fate. However, she looks the same, loves children (Erio and Caro), does whatever she can for her friends, carries Bardiche and fights with him, wears teh same type of clothing colors, ect. Fate is still "Fate" but an AU Fate. Same with Nanoha. The sick girl who's shy and doesn't know her place in life or what she wants to do. Despite this, she bakes like her parent's café, she loves the sky, is very indipendant, and wants to live her life to the fullest.

Both of the characters don't use magic, aren't on mid, aren't in the military, and generally aren't near the real characters, but people relate to them and when something is blatantly from the series, its a "neat addition". Fate's motorcycle, for example, looks like Bardiche. Her biker outfit looks like her barrier jacket
Spoiler for image:
I understand what you're getting at: you're borrowing part of the canon to make an original story. But I have to say, a character is more than looks; it's personality, too. I just can't see "Fate" in your story, especially since fanfiction isn't a visual medium.

It's like a bunch of imperfect clones.

A general rule of thumb I use, is if a mad scientist kidnaps the real version and replaces it with that character; will the other characters notice it's not the real version? "Hmm, Fate doesn't seem to be acting like herself..."

This becomes important in scenes where, say two characters are supposed to know each other well, ie Subaru/Teana or Nanoha/Fate. Since we the viewers know Subaru as well as Tea does, we can see when something is bothering her, or when something seems off. And we generally expect Tea to pick up on it as well.

Also, a clone may be almost perfect, but have one little thing off. Something that can lead a character to go: "It all makes sense; you're not our Subaru! Where's the real one!?"

You can't do that when you change personalities and situations. It limits the writing because you lose story-telling tools.

Quote:
What draws people to this is seeing how their characters adapt to their lifestyles. The challenge is for the author to make it still "based off of" without going TOO far away from the source material.
In general, we agree. It's just that I'd argue that changing the settings or personalities goes too far. If I had to assign an arbitrary number, I'd say if a fic goes more than 80-90% off source characterizations or material, I have trouble following it.

As a reader, it doesn't excite me the way the original universe did, because I wanted to read a Nanoha fic, or a Naruto fic, etc. What I got wasn't what was advertised. Just tryin' to show, from a readers perspective, why a reader has trouble liking certain fics.

Quote:
So in general I can see what you're saying, but you don't need to batch that with fanfiction as a whole. Just AU fics. Because fan fiction is, no matter how you put it, a fan writing something that isn't canon because they want to. Forcing their ideas on a character just for the heck of it.
It's not just AU fics to me, but ones that divert too far off the "tone" of the series as well. As I mentioned before, if someone makes a an extreme dark fic of a light-hearted series. Imagine reading a fic where Nanoha snaps and goes on a chainsaw rampage, brutally killing Vivio and other friends. She ends up losing an eye and an arm, and is eventually captured, screaming in a straight jacket while those that are left, learn to cope with their lost friends (NOT done in a humorous manner).

That doesn't look like Nanoha to me. If I saw someone writing that, I'd politely suggest they may want to look into another series to write for, like Hellsing.

So while I respect someone's right to write what they want, I'm just explaining why it loses me as a reader; a fan of the original material that hooked me into the universe.

And for me as a writer, I find it a challenge to my skills to accurately portray characters in a universe. To be able to, say, write an episode in fanfic form that would fit somewhere in the source material. Or to make a faithful continuation. Or to explore some character backstories, that help explain some parts of a character's personality or upbringing. Connecting the dots and fleshing out the universe.

Another challenge is making some OC's that fit well in the story, with their own strengths and weaknesses, because expanding a universe inevitably means having to add some OC's, or that an OC can act as a jumping off point for a story (Fate discovers a young man with amnesia, etc.).

Just my thoughts. Your mileage will vary, of course.
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:49   Link #18371
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I can see it now. Hundred upon hundred of clone fics. The same characters doing the same things over and over and over again.

I, for one, would welcome the insanity example described above.
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:54   Link #18372
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I suppose the question I asked earlier was ignored, but has anyone considered writing a Transformers and Nanoha crossover?
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:58   Link #18373
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It's not just AU fics to me, but ones that divert too far off the "tone" of the series as well. As I mentioned before, if someone makes a an extreme dark fic of a light-hearted series. Imagine reading a fic where Nanoha snaps and goes on a chainsaw rampage, brutally killing Vivio and other friends. She ends up losing an eye and an arm, and is eventually captured, screaming in a straight jacket while those that are left, learn to cope with their lost friends (NOT done in a humorous manner).
Actually, I think a fic like that would be immensely popular. I mean, hell, I wrote a fic where Golgo 13 shows up and kills off most of the My HiME cast. People loved it. It remains my most popular fic hits wise on FF.net.

Sometimes I just don't understand people...
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Old 2009-11-05, 18:03   Link #18374
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I suppose the question I asked earlier was ignored, but has anyone considered writing a Transformers and Nanoha crossover?
I think Goose in OCT is/was thinking about it. More than that, I don't know.
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Old 2009-11-05, 18:12   Link #18375
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Actually, I think a fic like that would be immensely popular. I mean, hell, I wrote a fic where Golgo 13 shows up and kills off most of the My HiME cast. People loved it. It remains my most popular fic hits wise on FF.net.

Sometimes I just don't understand people...
Except that Mai-HiME *does* have extreme dark elements to it. I remember it seemingly kinda fluffy... until Episode 8 and beyond hit and turned real tear jerker. I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't seen it, but it's well worth watching if you get to ep 8 and beyond.

Contrast that with me making a Nano/Fate fic... where they are Vietnamese girls back in the Vietnam war. They are abused by US soldiers and others, and tearfully cling to each other for support as they make their way through the battlefield and other dangers.

It's not a Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha fic. But it does have two people who look like Nanoha and Fate.
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Old 2009-11-05, 18:32   Link #18376
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Nanoha isn't without it's sadistic side, though. You got Hayate's break the cutie moment near the end of A's, and then there's ep 17 and onwards in StrikerS. So there is some leeway into dark fics.

Oh, can't forget the fact that Nanoha's magic will eventually kill her if she isn't careful, so there's plenty of grounds for death fics.
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Old 2009-11-05, 18:43   Link #18377
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I tend to stick closer to canon, but almost all of my fanfictions are AU and generally have at least one original character who typically starts out as an antagonist or a third "interested party."

With Nena's story, I did change the tone of MGLN significantly. It's a war epic, set during a massive invasion of administrated space, an army of magic-dead humans with high technology searching for the fragments of an ancient Lost Logia. The main character is an OC.

But to me the story still feels like Nanoha, just... a "what would happen if" scenario.

When it comes to fanfiction, it's something I write when I can't write something else. As a writer I prefer working on my own original IPs, but sometimes I get blocked. Fanfiction lets me get that "urge to write" out.

America doesn't have the doujin community Japan does, so fanfics written by American authors typically stay in the "just for fun" realm. I feel pretty guilty if I spend too much effort working on something I can't ever make money off of, so that tends to limit my production of fanfics.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Contrast that with me making a Nano/Fate fic... where they are Vietnamese girls back in the Vietnam war. They are abused by US soldiers and others, and tearfully cling to each other for support as they make their way through the battlefield and other dangers.

It's not a Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha fic. But it does have two people who look like Nanoha and Fate.
I would totally read this.
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Old 2009-11-05, 19:16   Link #18378
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I suppose I am of the guilty sort, in that I write mostly OC-related materials. In fact, I believe only two stories in my entire index involves canon characters only, and even then the stories are significant departures from the canon. Still, I like what I'm writing, and apparently so do other people in this thread. Noland is definitely an OC with... interesting abilities, and a history that links him to the canon cast, and if anyone has been following the stuff I post, he's a core character.

I don't know, maybe it's because I have the most fun writing him into the MGLN universe and seeing how the characters would react with a living piece of history. I realize that because of this, I don't get as many readers as I like, but whatever.

Speaking of which... I'm almost done with the next chapter of Gospel, for anyone that cares.
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Old 2009-11-05, 19:17   Link #18379
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@Kaijo: Dude if you wanted it to STICK TO BLOODY CANON then wait for the official releases. Why are you looking at a fanfic thread?
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Old 2009-11-05, 19:23   Link #18380
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@Kaijo: Dude if you wanted it to STICK TO BLOODY CANON then wait for the official releases. Why are you looking at a fanfic thread?
This comment makes sense.
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