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Old 2008-01-10, 13:07   Link #81
Sabaku Kyu
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I got to say this has been an entertaining discussion. Rurik, Hunter, Sazelyt and many others have brought up some interesting views. I handed out many rep points.

I even have respect for Naotaka's opinion, because even though I don't agree with him on how strong Naruto actually is, he does point out very well how the author doesn't make Naruto's growth as believable as it should be. That is an area where I hope the manga will improve.

But that being said, I think Hunter's comment sums up my view the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

I think most people agree with your sentence the difference is I take the "what was intended to be shown" as more important than "what is shown" because this is a work of fiction and if the autor had something in mind when he imagined the scene then this is what will matter when he will imagine what come next regardless of what you think he really delivered.

When the autor fails to convince you it doesn't mean he is wrong, it means you're going to suffer from suspension of disbelief.
And it's not just Kakashi's statement but Yamato, Tsunade, Jiraiya and even Madara have acknowledged Naruto's growth in one way or another despite his apparent incompetence sometimes. And even though Kakashi was the only one of these people to directly compare Naruto's strength with another shinobi (himself). I think the comment cannot be taken lightly or written off as modesty(Naotaka).

Kakashi rarely compares his skills to that of other shinobi and when he does, he speaks sincerely. For example, he put his intelligence on par with Shikamaru's, and he was obviously not being modest, but probably not cocky either. He has been shown to be an excellent judge of character. So, I think Kakashi's comment about Naruto was literal, sincere and not exaggerated because that's the type of character Kakashi has proven to be.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:13   Link #82
BlackShinobi07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Interesting idea. Mind if I take a crack at deducing this "fictional" Naruto VS. Kakashi fight?

-Here is what we know for a fact in regards to the 2 fighters:

-Kakashi:
-Has the Sharingan.
-He has the Mangekyo Sharingan.
-Has Raikiri.
-Has his hounds.
-Several copied jutsu (note that the number is only rumored to be 1000 since we only hear this from Zabuza near the begining and was never actually proven).
-He's a conventional and tactful ninja.
-Can use Genjutsu.

-Naruto:
-Has Kage Bunshin and is thus capable of gauging Kakashi's reaction time as well as dodging critical blows and minimizing the Sharingan's ability to detect him.
-Has the Rasengan, Oodama Rasengan, Fuuton: Rasengan and Rasenshuriken.
-Can summon the toads.
-The Kyuubi chakra and Tailed modes 1 through 4.
-An unpredictable and unconventional ninja.
-Learned how to counter some Genjutsu.

-Here's the factors that are up in the air:

-The paper seal that prevents the Kyuubi chakra (Since we are going by stated facts only this is inconclusive for we've seen him use it once. I have no reason to believe he received or made more copies.)

-Kakashi's speed is debateable. We know that Kakuzu was able to kick him even with the Sharingan activated. But there is no doubt that it is at least decent.

-Here's the determining factors that would decide the winner:

-How well do the 2 fighters know one another.
-Who can use the skills and assets that they have to their advantge in regards to the situation.
-The evironment (like landscape, weather and so on).

-That's all I can think of at the moment but it should be enough to come to some sort of conclusion. In my opinion: the fight's outcome is inconclusive.
Didnt this fight already happen during the beginning of shippuden? Kakashi man handled him like nothing. Not to mention he had Sakuras help.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:20   Link #83
Naotaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I'm not sure you chose the right example since I'm not really sure he wasn't trying to kill them but if you want the difference it's rather simple : we do know from Sasuke's statements and actions that he was lying big time.
He lied about wanting to give his body to Oro whereas he was planning to take him out since the beginning and he obviously lied when he said he believed he had no chance against his brother consdering what he is doing right now.
You can also say that he obviously could have killed them easily had he wanted to with the level of power he has shown since this chapter but I always find this kind of argument rather weak.
Anyway since we know for a fact almost everything he was saying was a lie this isn't farfetched to believe everything was lie even if it's still up in the air.
Not following the bold part. Since the bold part says you think he was trying to kill them. At least I belive that's what your saying since you used two negatives which cancel each other out.

Either way back a number of threads ago, don't remember when exactly anymore. I argued a simple point. That being, that the manga has shown, that Sasuke would get rid of anyone in his way of revenge. He isn't a murderer who kills for fun, but if he believes his goals are going to be jepordized then he won't hesitate to kill those people. The examples I used were from the meeting with Sasuke and team seven, after the time skip. I'm not going to go into that whole debate again, as you deleted most of it I think anyways. I'm just genorilizing it now.

You basicly said, the same thing the rest of your post says now. That Sasuke is a liar and never intended to give his body to Orochimaru, he never intended to kill team 7 etc, etc. How are you so sure of this. Truth be told it is infact only an opinion. What would of happened if Orochimaru didn't stop him? I'd really like to know how he would of bs his way out of it, if Orochimaru had no problem with Sasuke killing team 7, since Sasuke said he intended to kill Naruto there on a whim.

Maybe after that display, Sasuke felt Orochimaru was to weak, and did not deserve his body, so now he has to do it alone. You're trying to get into the head of a fictinal character something you and Rurik are claiming one shouldn't do because these are not real people and are only a figment of the authors imagination, who don't always follow the logical path. And yet, you're assuming what Sasuke was thinking all this time and what his intentions were.

You point out that Sasuke said, he wasn't able to take on Itachi, himself but now he is taking him on himself so there for he must of lied. That could be the case sure. The other case could be that after that incedent he also got another power up. That being the white snake regenaration powers of Orochimaru. So now instead of Orochimaru posseing Sasuke, it's reversed and Sasuke posses Orochimaru. Maybe, just maybe that is why Sasuke thinks he can take on Itachi. Since now the two bodies are one, which was the original goal, just a difference of who posses who.

You have your opinions and I have mine. We can argue this till the end of time. The thing I said about Jiraiya actually thinking of Naruto as his grandson is something I remember reading, in the manga it's not something I pulled out of my @$$. The thing with Kakashi being modest, sure I admit that's something I did pull out of my rear end. Though from personal experience, I do know Asian people are more modest and respectful amongst other things compared to people on this side of the world, and there for going by their culture it doesn't seem that far fetched to me either.

However what Tsunade & Jiraiya think of Naruto, is supported by the manga, and makes just as much sence, as your whole Sasuke theory. Both theories can be disputed. However both of these theories have a leg to stand on. I see why you think the way you do. I don't have to agree with it, but I understand it. However for you to dismis the fact that Jiraiya and Tsunade care so much about Naruto, and that being part of a reason as to why his name came up, even though he is a ways away from becoming a hokage, would be a mistake on your part.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:26   Link #84
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07 View Post
Didnt this fight already happen during the beginning of shippuden? Kakashi man handled him like nothing. Not to mention he had Sakuras help.
In the parts that were anime filler, which was about 90% of the fight.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:32   Link #85
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naotaka View Post
WTF are you talking about, what does Itachi have anything to do with this? And are you suggesting Kakuzu who already lost 2/5 of his hearts, was in perfect condition to fight and there for it's irrelivent? What mentally retarted logic is this? One on one Kakuzu would of killed Naruto with out any problems. He fell for a stupid jitsu, that took out two of his hearts and immobilized Naruto himself. If Kakuzu was in perfect condition, he would of walked up to the limp body of Naruto and offed his sorry behind.
It has everything to do with it by far, you are using a devise against Kakuuzu to assume he was not in condition to fight, the Manga never stated this, Kakuuzu lost 2 of his hearts, however We where never told he was or exhausted, or that the Lack of hearts hindered his performance, Hence you are making this up.

Quote:
You go on to criticize me about how I make up senerios of what would of happened this way or that way. Yet you pull the same crap of, "oh well Kakuzu who was already injured in fight, would of lost to Naruto anyways even if he was in perfect condition, since it's irrelavint that he was injured". Hypocrite? I think so.
Sorry, but I’m not even creating scenario, I’m showing the scenario that happened, you seem to have selective memory also, as you decided very well to cover up one of the point you used to try and dish Kakashi Comments, let me remind you of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naotaka
Yep they're both powerful, I'm not taking anything away from Naruto. His Jitsu is stronger then Kakashi's Chidori. Thing is, both of them could kill each other in one blow, and Kakashi is much smarter then Naruto, more experienced, and well honestly aside from having less chalkra & stamina he is better then Naruto in every way.
And you have used as the main point of your argument this aspect of Kakashi to say he was lying, and yet Kakuuzu who was a lot smarter than Naruto, and more experienced than even Kakashi, he lost to Naruto in a battle of Wits. These Experience and Intelligence are totally independent whether or not Kakuuzu was in critical condition, because these two aspects don’t suddenly get depleted.

In other words, if you are going to say that Kakashi was Lying, don’t use some of Kakashi abilities like Experience or Intelligence, given those already failed against Naruto.



Quote:
I understand you're slow so I'll try to explain it carefully. Your point is that because Kakashi (who by the way is the only person to say this) said that Naruto is stronger then him, means Naruto is stronger then him. That's one person in the manga who helps back up your argument. I on the other hand show 2 people, who are stronger then Kakashi, with beliefs that are different. Meaning they think Kakashi is better then Naruto. I also point out that the manga hasn't proven in any fight, that Naruto is actually stronger then Kakashi.
A) How do you know Jiraiya and Tsunade opinion is not been modest? Whereas Kakashi's opinion should be?

B) Where the hell does it say that Hokage is just been strength, when the same Manga has proved that strength alone is not a requisite for Been a Hokage?


You are been irrational using this, any person using a bit of common sense knows why Kakashi is the perfect Candidate for it than Naruto is, and I give you a hint: Is not strength. Just like anyone here knows the reason why Oro was not selected as Hokage, I'll give you a hint: Its not strength.

Quote:
Since Kakuzu, was already injured, when Naruto hit him, he was worried about several ninjas, wasted his chalkra, and his stamina, and what ever else I might be forgeting.

But the manga never really mentioned this as the reason why Kakuuzu lost. I’m sorry, but you are just taking merit away from Naruto, when Naruto defeated kakuuzu by Himself; that Kishi failed to deliver a believable plot for it is another story.

Quote:
The only thing it proved was that Naruto has developed a very lethal jitsu, that is stronger then Kakashi's Chadori. Point being is there are more sources, in the manga that say Kakashi is stronger then Naruto then Naruto is stronger then Kakashi.
You really need to read the Manga, Naruto didnt just developed a Jutsu stronger than Chidory, Naruto developed a Jutsu that was deem impossible even for Yondaime to do so.

Quote:
But you feel like being up on the high horse of Naruto is Ruxxor 1337 Naruto Naruto Naruto. Simular to the Sasuke tards. When there is absolutly nothing concreate, that Naruto has actually advanced past a level of where Kakashi is, to end this debate.
You know, this quote here gave a good laugh, in all my years posting here, I’ve Been called an Sasuke fanboy and a Itachi fanboy, this is the first time I been said to be “high horse” on Naruto!!

One thing Naotaka, I do admire that you stick true to your point to the very end
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:49   Link #86
Adediran242
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Bravo Rruik! very well put together argument. *dishes out reps like a mad man*
[snip] Kishimoto displayed what should have been an excellent fight, rather poorly, dissapointing his fans and making hard to believe in Naruto's improvement (Hence the pointless argument we've been having.)

I hope we can put this behind us, no one is stupid enough to continue arguing.


[QUOTE=Hunter;1336421]You see Naotaka you can indeed come up with rationalization about everything.
Kakashi is too modest (and maybe drunk when he saw Yondaime outlined around Naruto), Jiraiya is biaised because he thinks of Naruto as his grandson, Tsunade is biaised because Naruto reminds her of her dead brother/lover and reminded her of her nindo, Yamato... Well Yamato is probably a drug addict anyway so you can't really trust him, etc.

... That or Kishimoto is trying to tell us something. With a brick.[QUOTE]

LAWLZXXX, ROTFL, ZOMFGD!!!!!!!!!! *wets himself* what can I say. I'm bored.

Anywho, when do we get to see some spoilers? it's the 10th here in London and I'm seriously suffering from SJ deprivation symptoms!!!

P.S. Does anyone have any ideas for the extent of Madara's power? And any points on his little intagability trick would be good.
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Last edited by Hunter; 2008-01-10 at 18:14.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:55   Link #87
BlackShinobi07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
In the parts that were anime filler, which was about 90% of the fight.
Not the anime the manga. He stilll pwned both of them and if they were still genins.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:57   Link #88
Naotaka
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Quote:
It has everything to do with it by far, you are using a devise against Kakuuzu to assume he was not in condition to fight, the Manga never stated this, Kakuuzu lost 2 of his hearts, however We where never told he was or exhausted, or that the Lack of hearts hindered his performance, Hence you are making this up.
This is so retarted I'm not really sure how to respond. I'm not even joking here it really is that stupid of a statement. Having spent chalkra, getting beat up in a fight, his elemental affinities came from his hearts. Which means the powerful jitsu's of different elements he used, were also no longer at his disposale (well some of them) at that point because his hearts were gone. Seriously do you even listen to yourself? How the hell does getting beat up in a fight with team 7 before hand, not constitue a handicap for when he went one on one with Naruto? And then again after words when he almost killed Naruto, Naruto was saved by Yamato.

Quote:
Sorry, but I’m not even creating scenario, I’m showing the scenario that happened, you seem to have selective memory also, as you decided very well to cover up one of the point you used to try and dish Kakashi Comments, let me remind you of this:
You're not creating an alternate scenerio where if Kakuzu was at 100%, taking on Naruto one on one, that Naruto would of still won? Since this didn't happen in the manga, you are there for creating a scenerio. If you disagree with that you're either ***** or high. Maybe both.

Quote:
A) How do you know Jiraiya and Tsunade opinion is not been modest? Whereas Kakashi's opinion should be?

B) Where the hell does it say that Hokage is just been strength, when the same Manga has proved that strength alone is not a requisite for Been a Hokage?

You are been irrational using this, any person using a bit of common sense knows why Kakashi is the perfect Candidate for it than Naruto is, and I give you a hint: Is not strength. Just like anyone here knows the reason why Oro was not selected as Hokage, I'll give you a hint: Its not strength.

A) Maybe they are, however being modest means to have humble opinions of one self, and not someone else. The opinions still out numbers you're suggestion 2 to 1 in favor of Jiraiya and Tsunade vs just Kakashi. No way of getting around this. That means Kishi had two people contridict his previes statement.

B) When I said strongest, I didn't mean, strengh as in who has the most nuke like jitsu. Strongest it a relative term used through out the manga to discribe kages as powerful and well rounded individuals. Orochimaru being an evil bastard that he was lacked one of the certain qualities that is considered to be a part of this so called strengh.


The other small paragraph, see part B.

Quote:
But the manga never really mentioned this as the reason why Kakuuzu lost. I’m sorry, but you are just taking merit away from Naruto, when Naruto defeated kakuuzu by Himself; that Kishi failed to deliver a believable plot for it is another story.
He didn't do it himself. Are you reading the same damn manga we are? He had help lots of help. Yes he was able to get a powerful blow on Kakuzu by himself at the end, but that does in no way mean, he beat Kakuzu by himself.

Quote:
You really need to read the Manga, Naruto didnt just developed a Jutsu stronger than Chidory, Naruto developed a Jutsu that was deem impossible even for Yondaime to do so
.

That maybe because it requires increadible chalkra reserves which only Naruto has. Just a thought, since it's been mentioned this jitsu will require very high amounts of chalkra. Not to mention he only worked on improving a technique created by the 4th himself.

Quote:
You know, this quote here gave a good laugh, in all my years posting here, I’ve Been called an Sasuke fanboy and a Itachi fanboy, this is the first time I been said to be “high horse” on Naruto!!

One thing Naotaka, I do admire that you stick true to your point to the very end
W/E

Edit: Sorry Sabaku you're going to share a post with Rurik, so I don't double post.

Quote:
And it's not just Kakashi's statement but Yamato, Tsunade, Jiraiya and even Madara have acknowledged Naruto's growth in one way or another despite his apparent incompetence sometimes. And even though Kakashi was the only one of these people to directly compare Naruto's strength with another shinobi (himself). I think the comment cannot be taken lightly or written off as modesty(Naotaka).

Kakashi rarely compares his skills to that of other shinobi and when he does, he speaks sincerely. For example, he put his intelligence on par with Shikamaru's, and he was obviously not being modest, but probably not cocky either. He has been shown to be an excellent judge of character. So, I think Kakashi's comment about Naruto was literal, sincere and not exaggerated because that's the type of character Kakashi has proven to be.
I will accept the fact that Kakashi, is a good judge of character, and I'll accept the point you're making about him not being modest because he is as you put it "sincere". What I will disagree on is this. The people you mentioned that said Naruto improved. I don't think anyone argued the fact that Naruto improved. Anyone with half a brain will tell you this. By how much is a different thing altogather. Madara's big warning to Pain was that Naruto has gotten stronger, he has a very powerful jutsu and has a lot of Konoha ninjas with him. I never argued that Naruto's Futon Rasengan wasn't increadibly powerful. It is. However there is also a key point in numbers of all the Konoha ninjas that are with Naruto to take note of too. Jiraiya, Tsunade, Yamato, all acknowledge he improved, but no one said, oh well he's on the level of Kakashi or better. In fact Jiraiya & Tsunade disagreed with that. That's one small reason why I don't agree the other being I belive in what I see, and not just some cheap line thrown out there.

Yea I realise what Hunter says, take the word of a cheap line over what Kishi is able to show. However I just can't bare myself to do something like that, when everything in the manga still suggests otherwise.
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Last edited by Naotaka; 2008-01-10 at 14:34.
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:05   Link #89
mayhem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Because arguing amongst one another is the sole point of interest in our otherwise parasitic existance on these forums.

-I wonder: since Tobi/Madara cannot be harmed physically (that going by what we have so far) what about his tenketsu and chakra pathways? Last I checked such things can be damaged by the Hyuuga (and Fuuton: Rasenshuriken by it is a physical contact jutsu so it won't work here). I smell a Hinata improvement chapter here.
I always thought it was a forum for intellectual debate and coversation seeded at finding out more or better understanding a specific topic, more and more your arguments seem like enraged banter whose sole purpose is to prove the other person wrong.

I think that contradicts the whole point of a forum. The only people who consistently display rational are the mods like hunter but then again they 2 are human and it is only too human to want to be right instead of finding out the truth.

I'm not trashing on anyone, I 2 have been the same way...but i've seen the light lol so to speak.
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:11   Link #90
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naotaka View Post
This is so retarted I'm not really sure how to respond. I'm not even joking here it really is that stupid of a statement. Having spent chalkra, getting beat up in a fight, his elemental affinities came from his hearts. Which means the powerful jitsu's of different elements he used, were also no longer at his disposale (well some of them) at that point because his hearts were gone. Seriously do you even listen to yourself? How the hell does getting beat up in a fight with team 7 before hand, not constitue a handicap for when he went one on one with Naruto? And then again after words when he almost killed Naruto, Naruto was saved by Yamato.
It did not constitute one, because it was never said it was one, He lost 2 hearts that's it, as the same when Naruto reached team 7 that he was already beat up by his training, and I don’t see you using that as an Excuse to say that’s the reason he failed the first time.

So Please, stop using the previous fight to apologize for Kakuuzu, because the Manga never did that, kakuuzu never said he lost because he was too week, Heck, the form he used against Naruto was maybe his most powerful form.

Quote:
You're not creating an alternate scenerio where if Kakuzu was at 100%, taking on Naruto one on one, that Naruto would of still won. Since this didn't happen in the manga, you are there for creating a scenerio. If you disagree with that you're either ***** or high. Maybe both.
Sorry, I’m not creating that scenario, because I’m not even talking about Kakuuzu fighting one on one against Naruto, I’m pointing out a simple fact that you are avoiding: Kakuuzu never lost or intelligence or experience before fighting Naruto, as Kakuuzu was not defeated because lack of Chakra or lack of power, Kakuuzu was defeated because he was outsmarted by Naruto, even when Kakuzu was smarter and had more experience than Naruto; the same point of comparison you are using to say Kakashi is not telling the truth!

Quote:
A) Maybe they are, that's still out numbers opinions 2 to 1 in favor of Jiraiya and Tsunade. No way of getting around this.
No matter how many opinions agree on the same, they are still Opinions, and you have no proof to say they are right!

And actually it was just one, because Jiraiya was the one that Said Naruto was not there, not Tsunade.In other words you are taking Jiraiya opinion, twisting that Opinion and then using it to negate Kakashi’s opinion. No matter if oyu really don’t hate Naruto, but this just smell as if is.

Quote:
B) When I said strongest, I didn't mean, strengh as in who has the most nuke like jitsu. Strengh it a relative term used through out the manga to discribe kages as powerful well rounded individuals. Orochimaru being an evil bastard that he was lacked one of the certain qualities that is considered to be a part of this so called strengh.
The fact that Oro was not selected had to do with a state of mind, something that it is independent of his strength; in fact Oro "evilness" is part of what makes him such a strong Ninja.

You are been dense for no good reason, Kakashi is a better choice than Naruto for mostly because his State of mind, forget about experience or Intelligence, is more about Maturity, is more about Naruto state of mind.

Quote:
He didn't do it himself? Are you reading the same damn manga we are? He had help lots of help. Yes he was able to get a powerful blow on Kakuzu by himself at the end, but that does in no way mean, he beat Kakuzu by himself.
Yes, he beat him by Himself, forget about the side help he had previous to it, the trick he did to finally land the finishing blow was something done by himself and not help a all.

Quote:
That maybe because it requires increadible chalkra reserves which only Naruto has. Just a thought, since it's been mentioned this jitsu will require very high amounts of chalkra. Not to mention he only worked on improving a technique created by the 4th himself.
He worked on completing a Jutsu, not improving a Jutsu.and It was not about just Chakra, is about how hard (or Imposible) it was to Mix such High level of shape recomposing with an element, once again, you need to read the Manga.


Quote:
W/E
Excuse my ignorance, but what does that means?

Quote:
Jiraiya, Tsunade, Yamato, all acknowledge he improved, but no one said, oh well he's on the level of Kakashi or better. In fact Jiraiya & Tsunade disagreed with that. That's one small reason why I don't agree the other being I belive in what I see, and not just some cheap line thrown out there.

Sorry, but stop inventing things, neither Jiraiya or Tsunade disagree with what Kakashi said, they merely agree on the best Hokage Choice, Were the only one that said Naruto was not there was Jiraiya, whereas Tsunade feels he is already capable of pulling the Job.
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:30   Link #91
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naotaka View Post
Not following the bold part. Since the bold part says you think he was trying to kill them. At least I belive that's what your saying since you used two negatives which cancel each other out.
Yes that was I'm saying (hence why I said I think you choose a bad example) I'm not sure Sasuke wasn't really trying to kill them despite the fact he was lying about everything else.
Which is by the way a fact and not an opinion. We know since the chapter 347 and 348 that Sasuke planed to kill Orochimaru since the beginning and had already spotted the ninja he intended to use after this to track down Itachi since quite some time.
In fact from Kabuto and Orochimaru's own words we know they didn't really believe either that Sasuke would give up his body like that.
We also know that he didn't believe what he said about the impossibility to take on Itachi since that was he has been doing this entire arc so there is only one part of his speech that could still hold some truth : killing team 7.

Hence what I said, considering the fact that almost everything he said was proven lies and considering Sasuke's attitude about killing people in general ever since it is possible that killing team7 was also an act like everything else.
It is not certain and I could also very well see Sasuke aknowledging them as a real threat against his life-goal and deciding to take them out but it is clearly different than the issue at hand where you have to invent various reasons for Deidara's warning, Madara's remarks, Tsunade and Jiraiya's so called biais, Kakashi sudden modesty and Yamato's drug problem. Not only finding explanation about each of them individually but why the autor felt like flooding us with all of them over such a short time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07 View Post
Not the anime the manga. He stilll pwned both of them and if they were still genins.
I'm not quite sure what you are refering to but if it is the 2nd bell test then you are wrong, the only thing we saw was Kakashi playing it safe on the defensive and admitting he had a very hard time and that Naruto and Sakura had grow a lot.
It's harldy evidence either way since it was essentially a mock fight but he certainely didn't "pwn" them.
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Old 2008-01-10, 16:33   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
To go into details, even if it wasn't really my point, did Naruto appear to still have this problem when he attacked Kakuzu the 2nd time?
No he timed his attack perfectly contrary to the first time and I find very unlikely Kishimoto will use this same "gag" twice.
That may be so, but, and that is a big "but", what happened at that time displayed Naruto's inexperience clearly. You may expect Naruto to not display that anymore, that is true, as we get the impression of another big training session before seeing Naruto fight at full power once again. However, that does not change how his current condition is. Inexperience does not going to disappear suddenly, as Naruto's inexperienced moves are also related to his personality and his character, which resulted in the surprising factor he carries that creates the option of killing his opponent and himself at similar ratios.

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So basically even by what the manga has shown Naruto has currently the level to close in and strike on someone with the level of Kakuzu in a couple of second and kill him.
He also has the level to do this even if his opponent knows about his jutsu and tries to avoid close range which is already more than Kakashi managed to achieve.
Given the conditions he can even achieve that against the superior ones like Itachi. But, you cannot see from Naruto what you see from Sasuke. Meaning, even if I see the light of success at the end, the distance to reach that light differ a lot between both parties, i.e., ratio of success you see from both parties seem to differ greatly. That is why I prefer to give more weight to the averaging rather than the peaking moments.

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...there is no reason to decide Naruto's growth stopped at this very moment until the next training session.
His growth probably hasn't stopped, but, it may not be at the rate to achieve what is expected of him to reach Sasuke's level. A brief example question to illustrate that point is, can you trust Naruto to not mess up at the beginning against a new opponent he would meet next? Right now, I cannot. And, even his continual growth till the next training session may be powerful enough to compensate what is missing right now.

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I'm not talking about how strong Naruto will be eventually by the end of the manga because he is the main character, I'm talking right now using the skills he has shown previously.
Naruto right now may have the greatest skills anyone can have. But, he is not at the point of using them effectively from beginning till the end.


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When the autor fails to convince you it doesn't mean he is wrong, it means you're going to suffer from suspension of disbelief.
Don't get me wrong. I am not inconvinced. If I had thought Naruto not having a non-negligible chance to win against those superior opponents, that would be the moment of my inconviction. That is not the case. I am just not happy with the result.
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I used a lot of example for Naruto so let's use Sasuke for once, many people didn't buy Sasuke summoning Manda to escape Deidara's last explosion right?
That being said saying Sasuke didn't have the chakra nor the time to escape is delusional... because that's what he did. You may find unbelievable "what was shown" but it's the truth nonetheless.
Still, till that point of the fight, for quite a long period, Sasuke performed quiet well. Naruto screwed up in the first move.
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Old 2008-01-10, 16:44   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I'm not sure you chose the right example since I'm not really sure he wasn't trying to kill them but if you want the difference it's rather simple : we do know from Sasuke's statements and actions that he was lying big time.
He lied about wanting to give his body to Oro whereas he was planning to take him out since the beginning and he obviously lied when he said he believed he had no chance against his brother consdering what he is doing right now.
You can also say that he obviously could have killed them easily had he wanted to with the level of power he has shown since this chapter but I always find this kind of argument rather weak.
Anyway since we know for a fact almost everything he was saying was a lie this isn't farfetched to believe everything was lie even if it's still up in the air.
About Sasuke i have to add: i don't think he would be so evil to hug Naruto and say all that stuff that he said to Naruto if he really wanted to kill him. We know how is Sasuke, he still never kills unknown ninja (1000 not killed but defeated, freeing prisoners). So if Sasuke did want to kill Naruto to gain MS he would not do all that hugging and talking, that would be a sick thinking which is absolutely not Sasuke's way of thinking but Orochimaru's. So it because of all that Sasuke did that i'm sure he did not want to kill Naruto neither Sakura. If Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto for MS he would do it the fastest way possible, saying at most one short sentence like "Sorry, i had to do this for my dream!"

And finally if currently Sasuke is sure of being able to kill Itachi without MS then it means he had no reason to kill Naruto.
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Old 2008-01-10, 16:47   Link #94
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It's really amusing to see the amount of excuses you guys come up with to defend Narutos weakness and incompetence. I think when you you've reached the point of, " Naruto stronger than Kakashi because that's how Kishi wrote it", is really rediculous when proof from the same authors manga says different.

Since so many things contradict each other all this debating about who's stronger than who is a bit pointless don't you guys think?
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Old 2008-01-10, 18:00   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Adediran242 View Post
Please eveyone ignore her, this is just getting pathetic!! As amusing as this is, I didn't come here to hear someone be petty with her opinions, I came for my fill of spoilers, speculation and the like about the next manga. If she chooses NOT to believe Kishimoto, leave her to her delusions, or better still, Make a thread about it somewhere ELSE!!
Completely off topic : Its a her, please god in heavan if that pic is her in the avatar becoz damn!!
And Mayhem why you hating on fukitsu, good banter is what makes the world turn instead of these 45 page reply's some members create, how much time do you people have!
@blackshinobi07 why o why did you have to write that!
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Old 2008-01-10, 18:03   Link #96
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Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07 View Post
It's really amusing to see the amount of excuses you guys come up with to defend Narutos weakness and incompetence. I think when you you've reached the point of, " Naruto stronger than Kakashi because that's how Kishi wrote it", is really rediculous when proof from the same authors manga says different.
You mean Naruto kills someone who was about to kill Kakashi and after that Kakashi says Naruto surpassed him and that the writer didn't want to say that Naruto became stronger than Kakashi? Strange logic...

It's on the contrary: we come up with excuses to say that Naruto is not that strong. I think those "excuses" are quite good, but that does not mean we know better the manga than the one who is writing it lol.

Naruto is the underdog, and Kishimoto will always make him look like being weak compared to his current opponent, that's the recipe for his character.
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Old 2008-01-10, 18:08   Link #97
BlackShinobi07
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
You mean Naruto kills someone who was about to kill Kakashi and after that Kakashi says Naruto surpassed him and that the writer didn't want to say that Naruto became stronger than Kakashi? Strange logic...

It's on the contrary: we come up with excuses to say that Naruto is not that strong. I think those "excuses" are quite good, but that does not mean we know better the manga than the one who is writing it lol.

Naruto is the underdog, and Kishimoto will always make him look like being weak compared to his current opponent, that's the recipe for his character.
I doubt Naruto would have won if Kakashi and Yamato hadnt intervened when he was caught by kakuzus threads or if he was attacked rather than being allowed to stand there watching Naruto. Im sure if kakashi was just able to stand there and concentrate on his MS the way Naruto was able to form the FRS he would have been able to beat Kakuzu as well. Kakashi even said if Narutos justu didnt work he would have had to use MS anyway. So there you go. Naruto is still nothing.
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Last edited by BlackShinobi07; 2008-01-10 at 18:33.
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Old 2008-01-10, 19:01   Link #98
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07 View Post
I doubt Naruto would have won if Kakashi and Yamato hadnt intervened when he was caught by kakuzus threads or if he was attacked rather than being allowed to stand there watching Naruto. Im sure if kakashi was just able to stand there and concentrate on his MS the way Naruto was able to form the FRS he would have been able to beat Kakuzu as well. Kakashi even said if Narutos justu didnt work he would have had to use MS anyway. So there you go. Naruto is still nothing.
Naruto didn't finish his training at the time, also remember that Naruto was already exhausted by the training and yet he managed to pull off 2 rasenshurikens. So there is a lot of space for speculation about what could or could not Naruto do to Kakuzu if he had the time to end his training and to rest some time. I think that in a 1on1 fight Kakashi would still win against Naruto, but i was trying to say that Kishimoto made it clear that Naruto is meant to surpass Kakashi any time now. We see that Naruto is increasing his skill and ninja abilities with amazing speed, Kakashi simply cannot keep up with that growth, so it's really not interesting if Kakashi is today stronger than Naruto because even if he is today tomorrow he won't be.

About the MS: Naruto already said to Itachi that he can be one or a 1000, so using his high level kagebunshin skill he can now deceive even Kakashi, so that Kakashi misses the real Naruto with MS and if he misses with MS he is so exhausted that he collapses and Naruto wins without attacking him.
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Old 2008-01-10, 19:26   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
That may be so, but, and that is a big "but", what happened at that time displayed Naruto's inexperience clearly. You may expect Naruto to not display that anymore, that is true, as we get the impression of another big training session before seeing Naruto fight at full power once again. However, that does not change how his current condition is. Inexperience does not going to disappear suddenly, as Naruto's inexperienced moves are also related to his personality and his character, which resulted in the surprising factor he carries that creates the option of killing his opponent and himself at similar ratios.
Indeed it displayed Naruto's inexperience and particulary his inexperience with the FRS he was still training for.
Which is kind of the point I was making here : Naruto was still in the process to understand his own shortages in the use of his new jutsu.
This didn't appear to be the case anymore after the first miss, ergo the Naruto post fighting Kakuzu is a Naruto who could have taken out Kakuzu very quickly since he wouldn't overestimate how long he could handle a FRS again.

It doesn't change all Naruto's shortage or the fact he often act before thinking (which I doubt will ever change, that's just how his character is built) but it makes him better than at the beginning of the fight already.

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Given the conditions he can even achieve that against the superior ones like Itachi. But, you cannot see from Naruto what you see from Sasuke. Meaning, even if I see the light of success at the end, the distance to reach that light differ a lot between both parties, i.e., ratio of success you see from both parties seem to differ greatly. That is why I prefer to give more weight to the averaging rather than the peaking moments.

His growth probably hasn't stopped, but, it may not be at the rate to achieve what is expected of him to reach Sasuke's level. A brief example question to illustrate that point is, can you trust Naruto to not mess up at the beginning against a new opponent he would meet next? Right now, I cannot. And, even his continual growth till the next training session may be powerful enough to compensate what is missing right now.
And again I am not denying that, in fact why bring Sasuke into this?
Yes we cannot expect for Naruto the kind of action we see from Sasuke (not in term of pure raw strength but rather without "safety net") just yet but it doesn't mean Naruto isn't a force to reckon with.
Right now I would place Sasuke in the top 5 ninja alive (that we know of) behind Madara, Pain, Itachi and arguably (very arguably to be honest) Tsunade depending of what Kishimoto has in mind for her in the future since he didn't make a bang up job with her right now even if she is the Hokage.
So yeah Naruto has still a way to go to catch up Sasuke and we will probably have a "Key training" and Jiraiya's death for that but not being as strong as Sasuke hardly means weak nowaday.

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Don't get me wrong. I am not inconvinced. If I had thought Naruto not having a non-negligible chance to win against those superior opponents, that would be the moment of my inconviction. That is not the case. I am just not happy with the result.
Still, till that point of the fight, for quite a long period, Sasuke performed quiet well. Naruto screwed up in the first move.
Well then we're not even really disagreeing on this particular thing you know. I think Kishimoto messed up big time with Naruto post timeskip. He could have made the battle against Kakuzu something big with Naruto finally showing off with cool wind jutsu, summoning and stuff but it all ended astoundingly quickly and boring.
I'm not saying I'm happy with Naruto's progress because I think it sucks big time. I'm saying that despite being very unappealing these progresses are supposed to be there.
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Old 2008-01-10, 19:53   Link #100
BlackShinobi07
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Naruto didn't finish his training at the time, also remember that Naruto was already exhausted by the training and yet he managed to pull off 2 rasenshurikens. So there is a lot of space for speculation about what could or could not Naruto do to Kakuzu if he had the time to end his training and to rest some time. I think that in a 1on1 fight Kakashi would still win against Naruto, but i was trying to say that Kishimoto made it clear that Naruto is meant to surpass Kakashi any time now. We see that Naruto is increasing his skill and ninja abilities with amazing speed, Kakashi simply cannot keep up with that growth, so it's really not interesting if Kakashi is today stronger than Naruto because even if he is today tomorrow he won't be.

About the MS: Naruto already said to Itachi that he can be one or a 1000, so using his high level kagebunshin skill he can now deceive even Kakashi, so that Kakashi misses the real Naruto with MS and if he misses with MS he is so exhausted that he collapses and Naruto wins without attacking him.
1. Whether he was rested or not doesn't change the fact that kakazu just stood there the whole time. And despite the amount of clones he creates, it's been demonstrated time and time again that they're more of an annoyance to his opponent than a threat. I remember in the beginning of Shippuden when Naruto created hundreds of clones, Kakashi simply said(not a direct quote), "there may be a lot, but they're all still Naruto", impying that even though there are so many they still share his lack of skill.

2. Naruto creating 1000 clones is obviously hyperbole. During his training with Kakashi and Yamato his max was about 200.
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