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Old 2011-10-08, 21:12   Link #261
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS View Post
And the team that made that series is no longer at Satelight. Gone and made Infinite Stratos another highly profitable series for 8bit.
Yep that's right, most of the team who worked on Macross Frontier for Satelight left to form 8-Bit, who with their first production outsold every Satelight show combined when you don't take into account MF.

They must still be on good terms though, since 8-Bit worked on the production of both Macross Frontier movies and are teaming up with Satelight for next years Aquarion EVOL.
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Old 2011-10-08, 21:14   Link #262
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The main reason I oppose "reveling in failure" is precisely because you never know when it'll be a show you like (and think was great) that sells poorly. As was said, the market can be cruel, but it's the ultimate judge. There are a lot of reasons why shows do or don't sell, and they don't always have anything to do with "quality"... or even with the show itself. There's a fair bit of money to go around (overall sales are up), but it's still finite. If too many people invest in popular show X, some of those people may not end up investing in niche show Y... even if they may have purchased niche show Y if it aired at a different time or in a different market climate. These are the sorts of gambles the producers take -- sometimes they win, sometimes they lose.

So I think it's rather presumptuous for anyone to attribute a show's success or failure to only objective factors. There will surely be shows that you dislike that sell like hotcakes, and shows that you loved that are total market bombs. That doesn't mean the market was wrong... but that also doesn't mean your opinion about the show is wrong either. It's just "a" measure of success. An important one, granted, but not the be-all-end-all. People shouldn't necessarily feel justified in their opinions when a show they didn't like fails, nor should they necessarily feel vindicated when a show they like sells well. That's way too simple a view of a complicated situation.

And all that said, yes... my main objection to the original comment was about "showing tact". There are certainly ways of saying things that are less needlessly provocative.
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Old 2011-10-08, 21:52   Link #263
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That being said, I do see RelentlessFlame's point here.

That was pretty blunt, Reck.

Maybe it would be better to write something like "Hopefully the anime industry will learn from this sales bomb, and make something similar to Croisee but more appealing/satisfying to customers" (which may well involve the sort of changes that would make you yourself like a Croisee-type show).
I can see what you're saying, but this is just a matter of me softening my blows... In either case what I think is the same, it's merely the delivery that is bothering people. I'm not trying to dance around the issue, I'm merely cutting to the chase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Okay you think it is a bad show and that is fine. No one is telling you to like the show. But I think it is a little cruel to be happy that show that other people really enjoyed on here did poorly in sales. Yes I am pretty upset that there probably won't be a second season, because I loved the show. If there ever was a second season you just wouldn't have to watch it.
Perhaps I should've typed my post better. I did not intend to come across as this diabolical person sitting behind a computer screen laughing evilly every time a show I dislike sells badly.

My only intention was to express that Croisee really isn't my type of show, and not the direction I hope the industry decides to take. The industry decided it valued other shows of the season more (Which I don't necessarily like either), but I'm relieved that such a thing will not result in the industry swinging the very direction I wish to not see it go to.

That's me putting it less bluntly, and if it's really that big of a deal, I really don't know what to say.
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Old 2011-10-08, 22:08   Link #264
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I haven't seen the show in question, but I have to say I agree in principle with Reckoner in this case. I recently made a similar comment on another site about Sentai's recent decision to license Akikan and got my share of similar criticism.
Respectfully, without having seen the show in question, I don't think you can judge Reckoner's point on its merits. Fact is, Ikoku Meiro wasn't a moe show in my opinion, and that of many other admirers. It was a very subtle character study and the fact that some can't see anything except a "moe show" because one of the characters is cute doesn't make it any less of a good show.
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Old 2011-10-08, 22:27   Link #265
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Anyway, the second reason I wasn't in favour of that post was because I didn't really want us to get into a big discussion over whether the show is good or not, or whether Reckoner's opinion of the show is reasonable/justified or not. So if you want to discuss Croisee as a show (what it is, what it contains, the style of show it is, etc.), I'd ask that you go to the show's thread. We can discuss the sales of the show (and others) in here.

Thanks...
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Old 2011-10-08, 22:43   Link #266
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It seems more than a few people took issue with my bluntness in this thread, so I'll step back and apologize for coming off badly. Sorry for offending anyone and hopefully we cannot dwell on this any longer.
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Old 2011-10-08, 22:56   Link #267
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Croiserre had a few things that was always going against it.

1. It didn't really seem to target a paying audience properly. In all honesty, I don't see a clear demographic that would buy it. It wasn't a moe show so the moe crowd wasn't going to pay for it. The setting in France was a limiting factor - it's been proven time and time again that otaku are more likely to buy what they can relate to. Classic example is what happened with Baccano and Durarara. Baccano didn't sell well in Japan due to its US setting and its divergence from the source material. Durarara - set in Ikebukro, has a couple of bishies, Japanese context. People associate with it and buy it.

2. As for the character chemistry, it wasn't unique that season. It was airing the same time Usagi Drop did. Another show with an older male taking care of a younger female.

3. If you're going for the relaxed mood, you become heavily reliant on the aesthetics and the characters. The visuals were okay but nothing special. The characters kept making me think about Usagi Drop and Kurenai instead for comparative reasons, plus none of them really stood out for me.


One fact about the industry at present is that you have to incorporate aspects of popular anime into a work in order for it to sell well. If you look at anything that cracked 10k this year, you'll find obvious reasons for why they sold that much. Marketing is 9/10 of the battle. People don't necessarily want a masterpiece as much as they want their fixes. Characters sell more than story/plot. Mood sells more than content. It's the way things are now. If you want financial success, you have to give the people what they want in some form.

For the record, I value quality foremost, but I know that in the modern world, you need to effectively market/target a title more than make a quality title.
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Old 2011-10-08, 23:13   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
1. It didn't really seem to target a paying audience properly. In all honesty, I don't see a clear demographic that would buy it. It wasn't a moe show so the moe crowd wasn't going to pay for it. The setting in France was a limiting factor - it's been proven time and time again that otaku are more likely to buy what they can relate to. Classic example is what happened with Baccano and Durarara. Baccano didn't sell well in Japan due to its US setting and its divergence from the source material. Durarara - set in Ikebukro, has a couple of bishies, Japanese context. People associate with it and buy it.
Isn't Ikoku Meiro similar in appeal to Aria though? That show certainly sold despite a foreign setting. And from the bits I've seen of Aria, both shows hail from what I'd refer to as a "non-otaku-memetic school of moe" (I'd strongy dispute that they aren't moe shows, they're just a different school.)

I also can't help but note that Kamisama no Memochou and Kamisama Dolls have also been poor sellers - I'm not going to go out on a limb and see that the three would have necessarily been great sellers in other years, but there's a very strong case to be made that sales of all but a few of this year's summer shows have been lackluster.
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Old 2011-10-08, 23:38   Link #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
Croiserre had a few things that was always going against it.

1. It didn't really seem to target a paying audience properly. In all honesty, I don't see a clear demographic that would buy it. It wasn't a moe show so the moe crowd wasn't going to pay for it. The setting in France was a limiting factor - it's been proven time and time again that otaku are more likely to buy what they can relate to. Classic example is what happened with Baccano and Durarara. Baccano didn't sell well in Japan due to its US setting and its divergence from the source material. Durarara - set in Ikebukro, has a couple of bishies, Japanese context. People associate with it and buy it.
The Baccano/Durarara comparison is very instructive, agreed. The two shows have very similar "feels" to them, but the differences you alluded to are key when it comes to sales potential.

One thing I would add to that is that Baccano's highly unconventional plot structure may have been a sales limiter (i.e. made it hard for some viewers to get into), whereas Durarara's plot structure was more conventional here.



Quote:

2. As for the character chemistry, it wasn't unique that season. It was airing the same time Usagi Drop did. Another show with an older male taking care of a younger female.
I do think that going head-to-head with Usagi Drop may have hurt Croisee sales-wise, which in fairness goes back to RelentlessFlame's point of timing sometimes playing a role in sales success or sales failure.

I do think the two shows appeal to the same customers, and so direct comparisons may have factored into purchasing choices.


As for your general points, I do think that quality, in and of itself, doesn't sell. Much like you said, for an anime to sell well it needs to have some sort of otaku hook to it, something that appeals directly to one or more of the otaku sub-fandoms (moe fans, harem fans, 'otaku culture' fans, magical girl fans, etc...).

What I do think, though, is that quality becomes a sales amplifier (or limiter) if that otaku hook is in place.

For example, I really do think that Madoka Magica being generally well-written, well-directed, and having pretty high production values, likely earned it 20 to 30 K more in sales than what would have been the case if it was an amateurish "slapped together" effort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post

I also can't help but note that Kamisama no Memochou and Kamisama Dolls have also been poor sellers - I'm not going to go out on a limb and see that the three would have necessarily been great sellers in other years, but there's a very strong case to be made that sales of all but a few of this year's summer shows have been lackluster.
I've been wondering if the unusual uptick in sales for Winter and Spring 2011 anime shows might mean that otakus in Japan have already almost exhausted their disposal income for the calender year, leaving little for Summer 2011... and maybe Fall 2011.
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Old 2011-10-08, 23:51   Link #270
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
One thing I would add to that is that Baccano's highly unconventional plot structure may have been a sales limiter (i.e. made it hard for some viewers to get into), whereas Durarara's plot structure was more conventional here.
I remember having that issue with Baccano the first time I saw it, and I clearly remember a friend of mine at the time voicing similar comments when it first started airing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I do think that going head-to-head with Usagi Drop may have hurt Croisee sales-wise, which in fairness goes back to RelentlessFlame's point of timing sometimes playing a role in sales success or sales failure.

I do think the two shows appeal to the same customers, and so direct comparisons may have factored into purchasing choices.
Somehow I completely forgot about that potential wrench. Slightly annoying to me in that while I like Usagi Drop, its not favourite list material the way Ikoku Meiro is.

I've noticed this on a couple occassions, actually... often when you look at two shows with what appear to be somewhat similar appeals, you'll find one ends up being the decisive winner in sales. Not always, but it happens.
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Old 2011-10-09, 17:55   Link #271
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So how well is anime doing in Japan right now? With the economic downturn and the earthquake I can imagine sales being way down.
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Old 2011-10-09, 18:55   Link #272
fertygo
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I'm just trying to be blunt here... DRRR!!! sells more than Baccano is just simply they attract more Fujoushi.. More marketable Chara is the primary reason.
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Originally Posted by ArrowSmith View Post
So how well is anime doing in Japan right now? With the economic downturn and the earthquake I can imagine sales being way down.
Fine as ever, although the lack of movie hits gonna make difference in yearly's number.

We don't have 4-5 mega hit that selling 100k+ like last year.
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Old 2011-10-09, 21:01   Link #273
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So how well is anime doing in Japan right now? With the economic downturn and the earthquake I can imagine sales being way down.
In addition to what was said, here's a relevant news post. Despite the economic downturn and the earthquake, video sales in first-half 2011 are actually up, and animation for adults and young adults in particular. Still not quite where it was at a few years ago, but some positive news on that front.
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Old 2011-10-10, 06:23   Link #274
Westlo
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
I'm just trying to be blunt here... DRRR!!! sells more than Baccano is just simply they attract more Fujoushi.. More marketable Chara is the primary reason.
Yep fujoshi's were definitely into DRRR!!!.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowSmith View Post
So how well is anime doing in Japan right now? With the economic downturn and the earthquake I can imagine sales being way down.
Well of the 87 anime titles to break the 10k mark since 2000 here's the yearly breakdown as provided by Something from AOD.

Breakdown by year:
2000 - 2
2001 - 2
2002 - 7
2003 - 4
2004 - 4
2005 - 9
2006 - 6
2007 - 9
2008 - 13
2009 - 11
2010 - 11
2011 - 9

Summer season still has Idolmaster and Penguin Drum to come, though Idolmaster will be hurt by the PS3 Game bundle and Penguin Drum is no guarantee. Usagi Drop is another that might pop up.

Fall has Persona 4, Gundam Age, Horizon, Working 2, Hagani as potential 10k+ series atm, Shana if it can repeat the performance of S1 and S2 is another chance and we'll see what happens with Guilty Crown, Last Exile 2 and UnGo.

Fate/Zero would've been another 10k+ contender but has moved to BD Season Box Sets... but regardless 2011 could be the best year in the last 11 when it comes to hit series.
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Old 2011-10-10, 08:41   Link #275
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Well of the 87 anime titles to break the 10k mark since 2000 here's the yearly breakdown as provided by Something from AOD.

[...]

Fate/Zero would've been another 10k+ contender but has moved to BD Season Box Sets... but regardless 2011 could be the best year in the last 11 when it comes to hit series.
It would be interesting to sum all sales per season to see if there has been any trend in sales over time, to see if the market is expanding or contracting. More hit series could simply mean a greater concentration of sales on a few individual titles rather then changes in market size.
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Old 2011-10-10, 10:13   Link #276
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Haven't found anything about total year sales for anime in Japan before 2008. The trend from 2008 onwards has been an increase in sales/revenue each year.

However, manga sales in Japan peaked in 1995 at 24 billion volumes sold that year. Last year, only 6 billion sold. The manga industry is MUCH weaker than it was at its peak.

As for the US, anime sales peaked in 2002 and manga sales peaked in 2007. But note very few titles crack the 5k mark in the US in anime or manga. There was a report recently that over the last few years, Baccano and Sekirei were the only two newly released TV series to crack that mark. I hope that is no longer true. Generally, re-releases of older classics or movie versions tend to heavily outsell newer titles.

As for collective studio revenue, it peaked in 2008. The bigger studios are doing well while the smaller ones are struggling.
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Old 2011-11-01, 13:53   Link #277
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October 24-30

Blu-ray
*1, 21,613 21,613 Tiger and Bunny vol.6 Limited Edition
*2, 19,774 19,774 Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai vol.5 Limited Edition
*3, 13,800 13,800 Steins;Gate vol.5
**, *8,363 *8,363 (IS: Infinite Stratos Live Event)
*4, *6,172 *6,712 Scryed Blu-ray Box
*5, *5,444 *5,444 Natsume Yuujinchou San vol.3 Limited Edition
*6, *5,390 *5,390 Uta no☆Prince-sama♪ Maji Love 1000% vol.2
*7, *5,216 *5,216 Mawaru Penguindrum vol.1 Limited Edition
*8, *5,031 *5,031 Denpa Onna to Seishun Otoko vol.4 Limited Edition
*9, *4,861 *4,861 Dog Days vol.4 Limited Edition
10, *4,774 *4,774 Ro-Kyu-Bu! vol.2 Limited Edition
11, *4,306 *4,306 Ao no Exorcist vol.5
12, *3,915 *3,915 The iDOLM@STER vol.1 Limited Edition
13, *3,791 *3,791 Mayo Chiki! vol.2 Limited Edition
14, *3,545 *3,545 A-Channel vol.6 Limited Edition
15, *3,245 *3,245 Usagi Drop vol.1
16, *3,126 *3,126 Hidan no Aria vol.5

DVD
*1, 11,936 11,936 Gintama' vol.4
*2, 10,456 10,456 Hakuouki Sekkaroku vol.4 Limited Edition
*3, *9,350 *9,350 Prince of Tennis: Another Story II - Ano Toki no Bokura vol.2
*4, *6,563 *6,563 Uta no☆Prince-sama♪ Maji Love 1000% vol.2
*5, *5,601 *5,601 Ao no Exorcist vol.5
*6, *5,481 33,854 Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa
*7, *4,053 *4,053 Natsume Yuujinchou San vol.3 Limited Edition
*8, *3,812 *3,812 Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai vo.5 Limited Edition
*9, *3,433 *3,433 Sekaiichi Hatsukoi vol.5 Special Edition
10, *3,007 *3,007 Bleach Hamen Metsubo Hen vol.9
11, *2,735 *2,735 Starry☆Sky vol.9 Special Edition
12, *2,138 *2,138 Dog Days vol.4 Limited Edition
13, *1,957 *1,957 No.6 vol.2 Limited Edition
14, *1,820 *1,820 Nurarihyon no Mago: Sennen Makyou vol.2
15, *1,797 *1,797 Tiger and Bunny vol.6
16, *1,718 *1,718 Hidan no Aria vol.5
17, *1,549 *1,549 The iDOLM@STER vol.1 Limited Edition
18, *1,517 *1,517 Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu Ni! vol.2
19, *1,222 *1,222 Beelzebub vol.5
20, *1,191 *1,191 Gundam Evolve DVD Box
21, *1,167 *1,167 Keroro Gunsou 7th Season vol.9
22, *1,159 *1,159 A-Channel vol.6 Limited Edition
23, *1,127 *1,127 Denpa Onna to Seishun Otoko vol.4 Limited Edition
24, **,959 **,959 Nintama Rantarou 18th Season vol.6
25, **,944 **,944 Usagi Drop vol.1
26, **,934 **,934 Super Robot Taisen OG: The Inspector vol.5
27, **,873 **,873 SKET Dance vol.3 Deluxe Edition

Single CD
*2, 42,624 42,624 Beelzebub "Baby U!"
*7, 14,902 14,902 Shinryaku!? Ika Musume "High Powered"
*8, 13,948 13,948 Tamayura: Hitotose "Okaerinasai"
10, 11,146 11,146 Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai "Zannen Kei Rinjin Bu ★★☆"
11, *6,963 21,405 Fate/Zero "Memoria"
12, *5,162 76,362 Supernatural The Animation "In My Head"
22, *4,255 *4,255 Tamayura: Hitotose '"Kami-sama no Itazura"
23, *4,018 *4,018 Bakuman 2 "monochrome rainbow"
24, *3,906 16,801 Last Exile: Ginyoku no Fam "Buddy"
26, *3,529 17,486 Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon "Terminated"
27, *3,485 *3,485 Mirai Nikki "Kusou Mesorogiwi"
28, *3,386 *3,387 Mashiroiro Symphony: The Color of Lovers "Authentic symphony"
32, *3,005 23,816 C "Endless Story"
36, *2,631 *2,631 Maji de Watashi ni Koi Shinasai! "U-n-d-e-r--Standing!"
37, *2,626 *2,626 Beelzebub "Papepipu♪ Papipepu♪ Papepipupo♪"
42, *2,075 *2,075 Inazuma Eleven Go "Naseba Narunosa Nanairo Tamago"
47, *1,905 19,028 Mawaru Penguindrum "Nornir"
58, *1,434 *1,434 Sekaiichi Hatsukoi 2 "Sekai no Hate ni Kimi ga Itemo"
60, *1,346 *1,346 Nurarihyon no Mago: Sennen Makyou "Departure"

Album CD
*1, 26,869 26,869 Persona 4 Game "Never More Perosona 4 Rinne Tensho"
13, *6,187 *6,187 Uta no☆Prince-sama♪ Maji Love 1000% Unit Drama CD
28, *3,258 *3,258 Hatsune Miku Project Diva Arcade Original Song Collection vol.2
29, *3,243 *3,243 Starry☆Sky Film Festival vol.4
42, *2,486 *2,486 Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei DJCD SZ-03K
44, *2,434 *2,434 Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei DJCD vol.10
47, *2,221 *2,221 Dog Days Drama CD Box vol.2

Source:Oricon http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=360611
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Last edited by Knight Hawk; 2011-11-01 at 14:20.
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Old 2011-11-03, 01:55   Link #278
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Either the sales of Mawaru Penguindrum and Idolmaster started later in the week or they really just weren't popular enough to break the 10k mark. Kinda sad because I was hoping for Anohana/IS/Tiger and Bunny like sales
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Old 2011-11-03, 03:06   Link #279
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Either the sales of Mawaru Penguindrum and Idolmaster started later in the week or they really just weren't popular enough to break the 10k mark. Kinda sad because I was hoping for Anohana/IS/Tiger and Bunny like sales
Well, with Idolmaster, don't forget that the game was also released in a "super bundle" with the PS3 game, and all those sales aren't counted here. The remaining volumes will also be released in a bundle with PS3 mini-games (in addition to as standalones) and those game bundles won't be included in the BD count, so it's not going to be an apples-to-apples comparison. Apparently the PS3 game sold in excess of 60,000 copies, but it's not clear many of those are game-only and how many are game+anime bundle.
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Old 2011-11-03, 07:53   Link #280
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
Either the sales of Mawaru Penguindrum and Idolmaster started later in the week or they really just weren't popular enough to break the 10k mark. Kinda sad because I was hoping for Anohana/IS/Tiger and Bunny like sales
I was never expecting Mawaru Penguindrum to sell that well. I don't think it has a hook that will get in male or female anime fans like Ano Hana & Tiger & Bunny. I am not really sure who Penguindrum targets in Japan? Ikuhara Fans?

Actually I think it did pretty good all things considering.
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