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Old 2011-12-28, 14:16   Link #401
relentlessflame
 
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I think I've said this before, but you have to consider what compels someone to want to buy Blu-Rays as opposed to just renting them or using other methods to watch the shows again. Especially at Japanese prices, I'd say it's like wanting to own a piece of memorabilia -- it's like saying "I was there when..." A big part of the initial viewing experience is the hype built-up from the marketing efforts, and the general "buzz" in the community at the time the show was airing. Having a "memorable experience" isn't necessarily a direct correlation to the show being "objectively good in every respect"; sometimes, controversy can be part of the experience, and a show can provoke strong emotions one way or another. But when people buy, they're saying "I want to relive that experience" or "I want something by which to remember that experience", and they choose that particular form of media as the memento. There can be times when someone watches a show, believes that it's very good, but just decides that they don't really need to own that particular show on Blu-Ray -- perhaps they buy the books/game/etc. or something else instead. Or perhaps in the case of some of these finale seasons or remakes, people decide "it was nice to get closure, but I'm done now -- no need to collect it". So, indeed, the relation between a show, its objective traits/"quality", and its Blu-Ray/DVD sales are not directly correlated. Like most things, it's complicated.
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Old 2011-12-28, 17:27   Link #402
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And I don't have problem with that and my complain is really more about the semantic than anything else.

If Last Sinner says that sales do not necessarily equates to quality, and it is he/her personal bias, then I'll be fine.

But when he/she says that sales "rarely" equates quality, that's where my problem comes as that comment is no more of a subjective and biased view with little support. Especially that sales, while not a perfect indicator for quality, is still better than one person's say so.
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Old 2011-12-28, 18:41   Link #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think I've said this before, but you have to consider what compels someone to want to buy Blu-Rays as opposed to just renting them or using other methods to watch the shows again. Especially at Japanese prices, I'd say it's like wanting to own a piece of memorabilia -- it's like saying "I was there when..." A big part of the initial viewing experience is the hype built-up from the marketing efforts, and the general "buzz" in the community at the time the show was airing. Having a "memorable experience" isn't necessarily a direct correlation to the show being "objectively good in every respect"; sometimes, controversy can be part of the experience, and a show can provoke strong emotions one way or another. But when people buy, they're saying "I want to relive that experience" or "I want something by which to remember that experience", and they choose that particular form of media as the memento. There can be times when someone watches a show, believes that it's very good, but just decides that they don't really need to own that particular show on Blu-Ray -- perhaps they buy the books/game/etc. or something else instead. Or perhaps in the case of some of these finale seasons or remakes, people decide "it was nice to get closure, but I'm done now -- no need to collect it". So, indeed, the relation between a show, its objective traits/"quality", and its Blu-Ray/DVD sales are not directly correlated. Like most things, it's complicated.
From what I've been able to gather niconico trends and MADs have played a large part in boosting or at least helping to generate sales in recent years. If your show can appeal to the niconico crowd or better yet become a meme by having a character that shows up in a lot of videos and community things then you're probably looking at some major sales success.

Some major hits with the niconico crowd that I can gather from my 4 or so years of having an account there have been Lucky Star, Tohou, Haruhi, Clannad After Story, Bakemonogatari, Madoka, Steins Gate, Hatsune Miku and related characters and Working!! among many others and it's kind of the sole thing I can see that is consistent across all major sellers. Your really just cannot underestimate how much of an impact this crowd can have on the success of your product if you can properly tap them.
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Old 2011-12-28, 19:08   Link #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Some major hits with the niconico crowd that I can gather from my 4 or so years of having an account there have been Lucky Star, Tohou, Haruhi, Clannad After Story, Bakemonogatari, Madoka, Steins Gate, Hatsune Miku and related characters and Working!! among many others and it's kind of the sole thing I can see that is consistent across all major sellers. Your really just cannot underestimate how much of an impact this crowd can have on the success of your product if you can properly tap them.
It's not directly correlated. Some shows have had weak sales, for example Umineko no Naku Koroni, and still the fans produced lots of content whilst having a popular original to back it up. Having the community rave out is a consequence of fan communication by having the work as the medium. What sets off sales are, first and foremost, sufficient budgets, second, the show's desirability, and also competitive works from that time. Strictly speaking of home media sales, for the show to be a break-out hit, there's probably marketing at play, but with your regular show that passes the manabi line, you can't really discuss macro trends because the numbers are too small to tie them down to such a diverse demographic of fetishist consumers.
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Old 2011-12-28, 19:23   Link #405
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A year and a half ago I wrote this about what I felt at the time were the four common elements of commercial hit anime shows.

I still think there's some truth to what I wrote back then, particularly as it pertains to anime originals.


However, it's become increasingly clear to me that...

1. If the anime is based on a very popular source material, and...

2. If the anime is extremely faithful to that source material...

Then that anime will sell very well, pretty much regardless of all other factors.
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Old 2011-12-28, 19:55   Link #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

However, it's become increasingly clear to me that...

1. If the anime is based on a very popular source material, and...

2. If the anime is extremely faithful to that source material...

Then that anime will sell very well, pretty much regardless of all other factors.
Yeah these two factors seem positively huge.
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Old 2011-12-28, 21:19   Link #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A year and a half ago I wrote this about what I felt at the time were the four common elements of commercial hit anime shows.

I still think there's some truth to what I wrote back then, particularly as it pertains to anime originals.


However, it's become increasingly clear to me that...

1. If the anime is based on a very popular source material, and...

2. If the anime is extremely faithful to that source material...

Then that anime will sell very well, pretty much regardless of all other factors.
It sounds like you're basing this only on Persona 4's adaptation though.
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Old 2011-12-28, 21:27   Link #408
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^ Well, there's Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon and Steins;Gate supporting the claim. Although there's Puella Magi Madoka Magica that is a very strong counter against said claim.
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Old 2011-12-28, 21:36   Link #409
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Puella Magi Madoka Magica is not really a counter to that though, considering that it's an original series that has neither qualities.

Triple R only claims that series with those 2 quality are usually big seller. To counter, you need to find examples that HAS those 2 qualities but didn't perform sales-wise like for example Angel Heart.

With that being said though, in general, I do agree with that assumption.
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Old 2011-12-28, 21:56   Link #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
It sounds like you're basing this only on Persona 4's adaptation though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ Well, there's Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon and Steins;Gate supporting the claim. Although there's Puella Magi Madoka Magica that is a very strong counter against said claim.
Persona 4 does factor into my observation there, but so do Marcus H's examples, as well as Fate/Zero (Fate/Zero might have sold well on good quality alone, but it does have those two elements I mentioned).

It's notable how the 2nd element I listed could account for the Umineko anime bombing: Many fans of the Umineko VN argued that the Umineko anime wasn't very faithful to the VN.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Puella Magi Madoka Magica is not really a counter to that though, considering that it's an original series that has neither qualities.

Triple R only claims that series with those 2 quality are usually big seller. To counter, you need to find examples that HAS those 2 qualities but didn't perform sales-wise like for example Angel Heart.

With that being said though, in general, I do agree with that assumption.
Yeah, that's right.

I'm not saying that an anime without those 2 qualities has no chance of being a hit, but just that if an anime does have those 2 qualities, it's very likely to sell well.

In other words, it represents one almost surefire route to sales success, but it's not the only route.
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Old 2011-12-28, 21:57   Link #411
Marcus H.
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Ikoku Meiro no Croisée was also a flop for a well-done adaptation.

And crap, I forgot about Fate/Zero on my previous post. @_@
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Old 2011-12-28, 22:00   Link #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Ikoku Meiro no Croisée was also a flop for a well-done adaptation.

And crap, I forgot about Fate/Zero on my previous post. @_@
Croisée was based on a very popular source material? If so, that's news to me.

I know that pixiv and the various booru sites weren't exactly teeming with Croisée pics either, for whatever that's worth.
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Old 2011-12-28, 22:01   Link #413
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That one I can sort of agree, but I'm a bit skeptical on calling Ikoku Meiro no Croisée a very popular source material even though it is a nice little manga .
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Old 2011-12-28, 22:03   Link #414
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I think there are still other important elements in the equation such as...

- If the anime will appeal to an audience that is likely to buy Blu-Rays/DVDs.
- If the anime's release is timed well as it relates to the source's popularity and/or if the "novelty factor" is still in effect
- If there are other anime targeting the same/similar demographic releasing in the same season that "split the vote"

And so on and so on. I don't think it's quite as simple as just making a faithful adaptation of a popular work, but it certainly doesn't hurt to appease a large existing fanbase by giving them what they want.
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Old 2011-12-28, 22:38   Link #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ Well, there's Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon and Steins;Gate supporting the claim. Although there's Puella Magi Madoka Magica that is a very strong counter against said claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Persona 4 does factor into my observation there, but so do Marcus H's examples, as well as Fate/Zero (Fate/Zero might have sold well on good quality alone, but it does have those two elements I mentioned).
Neither Horizon nor S;G had a super popular original source though. Before its anime, the S;G game only had an install base of 30k because it was initially released on Xbox. Its following popularity came completely from the success of the anime. Going only on the strength of its original source S;G probably would have only sold around 7-9k on BD. Horizon's novels only sold 25k on average before the anime as well and even though the anime has proven to be very popular in Japan, its light novel sales have only gone up to 31k due to the size of the novels.

TL;DR Horizon and S;G's success is based heavily on the anime's merits. Vice versa though, two examples of shows that have extremely popular source material (200k+ sales) but poor disc sales (or at least below expectations) because the anime was
mediocre are BakaTest and Haganai.

As for F/Z, its novels weren't actually moving a lot of copies until the anime aired.
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Old 2011-12-29, 08:17   Link #416
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Even if it's very faithful to the source material, it's still not warrant the success. I'd say that it's almost an impossible task to please the fanbase of source material. TWGOK is a good example. And I think that novel readers are harder to please than manga readers. Bakemonogatari has big sale but I don't think that the novel was that popular before the anime. Despite of its huge success, novel readers still complained about it while it was airing.

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Now let's see whether Nise'll be able to surpass Bake or not in terms of selling, considering not many sequel can do that.
I think no.
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Old 2011-12-29, 09:52   Link #417
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I'd say that it's almost an impossible task to please the fanbase of source material.
This; more often than not I find that it's harder to please the fans of the original source than it is for new comers.

The bigger the fanbase, the more you'll find people with a bone to pick over the adaptation not being a little bit more perfect in their minds.

For shows that started out modest but gain a large followings after the Anime, they'll start to dig into the original source, then when the sequel starts they get all these expectations in their heads.

And this would be where people would get the illusion that the sequel is bad because more people are complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
TL;DR Horizon and S;G's success is based heavily on the anime's merits. Vice versa though, two examples of shows that have extremely popular source material (200k+ sales) but poor disc sales (or at least below expectations) because the anime was
mediocre are BakaTest and Haganai.
For some reason, I find that series that started out popular, don't really get anymore popular after their adaptation

It's like they've already taken up all of their possible fans at the start
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Old 2011-12-29, 10:13   Link #418
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My point is the the disc sales for those shows would have been higher had their animes been better.
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Old 2011-12-30, 18:23   Link #419
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So, can someone here give me sales numbers for volumes 2 and 3 of Penguindrum??
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Old 2011-12-30, 18:49   Link #420
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So, can someone here give me sales numbers for volumes 2 and 3 of Penguindrum??
Volume 2 BD: 4,557, DVD: too low to be published (< 1,071)
Volume 3 BD: 4,504, DVD: under threshold (< 1,280)

eggplant still regularly updates his post for 2011 here by the way.
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Last edited by Katapan; 2011-12-30 at 19:30. Reason: Mania had the lower BD sales for the past week so BD3 sales were updated accordingly.
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