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Old 2011-02-11, 11:07   Link #1441
taichi-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaguya View Post
The end of their travel is Vol.17 Side Colors IV.
It is unknown what the end of a travel means.
If Vol.16 is released, readers will be able to guess what it is.
So , the main plot continues in vol.17..?

I didn't understand If vol16 had a good or bad end ...I read the spoilers but it seems it was an open end... anyway thanks a lot kaguya for the spoilers!


God.. we have to wait until vol17 to read the real end... some kind of final epilogue.. or final side story that reveals info of horo and lawrence at the very end.

I want holo and law to be together forever
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Old 2011-02-11, 14:31   Link #1442
Vexx
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Looking through the posts... I don't think a lot of the younger readers "get it". Even with two mortals, there's a high chance one will outlive the other and have to carry on in some way. There's simply isn't any "forever after". All things are transient - you experience them, cherish the moment, grieve when its gone, and move on til you don't anymore yourself.

The Horo/Lawrence story is simply an extreme example of this bit of truth.
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Old 2011-02-11, 15:01   Link #1443
BashZeStampeedo
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Looking through the posts... I don't think a lot of the younger readers "get it". Even with two mortals, there's a high chance one will outlive the other and have to carry on in some way. There's simply isn't any "forever after". All things are transient - you experience them, cherish the moment, grieve when its gone, and move on til you don't anymore yourself.

The Horo/Lawrence story is simply an extreme example of this bit of truth.
People just like to embrace that wonderful illusion that "love can be eternal". Age has little to do with it, nor experience.

For some it's all about escapism - they want to live vicariously through the characters and see them happy. For others, they focus more on the exploration of fictional possibilities that don't exist in the real world, to whatever end, so long as they are not mere escapism.

This story hasn't defined itself as either escapism or a serious exploration of the issues - it seems content to slice-of-life that aspect, in favor of giving us a genuine interpretation of two serious people who don't really want to face the future.

Holo's character is uncommon to most "immortals" I've come across in fiction. She hasn't chosen one side (human or "god"), because she wears both comfortably and proudly. Few of these characters manage to walk the tight-rope so elegantly, while still working without a net of guarded stoicism. Holo CANNOT choose, and refuses to, while most "immortals" have made their choice or make it surprisingly quickly.
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Old 2011-02-12, 08:53   Link #1444
JThree
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[QUOTE=Vexx;3482759]
I don't think a lot of the younger readers "get it". Even with two mortals, there's a high chance one will outlive the other and have to carry on in some way. There's simply isn't any "forever after". All things are transient - you experience them, cherish the moment, grieve when its gone, and move on til you don't anymore yourself."


Disagree with what you're saying here. We're on one side of eternity yet, and I'd hate to live in a world where everything's transient . . . I also don't think it's a question of some of the readers being young, it may more depend on their worldview.

JThree ]
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:11   Link #1445
BashZeStampeedo
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Originally Posted by JThree View Post

I don't think a lot of the younger readers "get it". Even with two mortals, there's a high chance one will outlive the other and have to carry on in some way. There's simply isn't any "forever after". All things are transient - you experience them, cherish the moment, grieve when its gone, and move on til you don't anymore yourself."


Disagree with what you're saying here. We're on one side of eternity yet, and I'd hate to live in a world where everything's transient . . . I also don't think it's a question of some of the readers being young, it may more depend on their worldview.
With these discussions I like to bring up this quote from (of all things) Babylon 5:

Quote:
We've lived too long, seen too much. To live on, as we have, is to leave behind joy, love, and companionship because we know it to be transitory; of the moment. We know it will turn to ash. Only those whose lives are brief can believe that love, is eternal.

You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received.
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:23   Link #1446
JThree
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
With these discussions I like to bring up this quote from (of all things) Babylon 5:


Well reasoned, and excellent job in quoting JMS from Babylon 5, one of the best writers, ever. Not only is his prose intelligent, but his material is very lyrical, and his quote is very beautiful. I tried to quote the quote but for some reason I can't.

But since this is the world of fiction, and very few of us have actually experienced several lifetimes to be a qualified expert. I have to state that my opinion on love being eternal still has as much merit as anybody elses.

And JMS, while being one of the best writers in the world, can still be wrong as well. Remember, he's been around Hollywood types for a long, long time.

Another point, and if I understand what is being said -- if the older, more wiser races believe that everything is transitory, and know that nothing lasts, aren't they telling us to embrace that lie. I don't believe it to be falsehood, and I embrace it, so is JMS saying, I'm right.

I believe that true love should last forever, and that it shouldn't just burn for a brief moment, be appreciated and move on. Cynics believe elsewise.

So there.

JThree
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:24   Link #1447
BashZeStampeedo
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Originally Posted by JThree View Post
But since this is the world of fiction, and very few of us have actually experienced several lifetimes to be a qualified expert.
I was simply quoting it because it fit the conversation, not because I was trying to take a stand or prove a point

We are obviously talking about concepts that we can't really understand, and some people just take them at face value, while others prefer to "embrace illusions" instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JThree View Post
If the older, more wiser races believe that everything is transitory, and know that nothing lasts, aren't they telling us to embrace that lie. I don't believe it to be falsehood, and I embrace it, so is JMS saying, I'm right.
Whether it's right or wrong is up to your personal beliefs

I just like the concept that an immortal could be jealous of us who can delude ourselves in such a way. It's not an original sentiment, but it's put into a nice, succint quote.

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Originally Posted by JThree View Post
I believe that true love should last forever, and that it shouldn't just burn for a brief moment, be appreciated and move on.
Personal beliefs are just that - personal. I don't mind discussing them, of course, but I feel we're starting to get too off-topic
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:52   Link #1448
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JThree View Post

I believe that true love should last forever, and that it shouldn't just burn for a brief moment, be appreciated and move on. Cynics believe elsewise.

So there.

JThree
I never said Holo might stop loving Lawrence after he died. Only that she would have to carry on and that might involve falling in love again. Why is that cynical?

Quote:
I'd hate to live in a world where everything's transient
That's just it - you *DO* live in a world where all things are transient. Lives, land, sea, stars, memories, etc. If one subscribes to souls... even then there's a metaphysical question of whether a soul carries memories to the next phase (be it afterlife or reincarnation). Enjoying and cherish as they happen is key.

From Blade Runner:
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...."
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Last edited by Vexx; 2011-02-13 at 13:48.
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Old 2011-02-13, 08:52   Link #1449
SakuraAyanami
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Originally Posted by JThree View Post

I believe that true love should last forever, and that it shouldn't just burn for a brief moment, be appreciated and move on. Cynics believe elsewise.

So there.

JThree
but why shouldn't a person who has lost their true love be allow to move on? Lets say that loved one died young and you still have at least another 50 years to live. Why is it so bad to, in that period of time, meet and find another person to love and cherish? Finding another partner does not mean that he/she is replacing or taking the place that your first love has in your heart. And yet at the same time, your first love will not share the place your new love have in your heart, because you love them both and both have their own special place.
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Old 2011-02-13, 08:58   Link #1450
JThree
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
I was simply quoting it because it fit the conversation, not because I was trying to take a stand or prove a point

We are obviously talking about concepts that we can't really understand, and some people just take them at face value, while others prefer to "embrace illusions" instead.

Ok. I guess I've ventured into some dangerous ground here. And after my previous remarks, I debated whether I stated myself correctly, or if I even understood the point myself. And I do believe I made an error in how I explained myself. First off, I still have to give you guys credit for your references to Babylon 5 and Blade Runner. You really know your stuff.

I just like the concept that an immortal could be jealous of us who can delude ourselves in such a way. It's not an original sentiment, but it's put into a nice, succint quote.

I do too, I like that an immortal could be jealous of us as well, but we don't know if all immortals feel that way, or may have come to recognize differently. . .

Whether it's right or wrong is up to your personal beliefs

Now I don't know if I agree with this. I guess it's the absolutist in me, while I may not totally understand them, somewhere out there is an absolute right and wrong. Being human, my reasoning of them is flawed, but I still hope they're out there . . . somewhere over the rainbow.

Personal beliefs are just that - personal. I don't mind discussing them, of course, but I feel we're starting to get too off-topic


Understood, but beliefs whether personal or not, influence us day by day, from the little decisions to the big ones. We live them, rather or not, we express them verbally is another.

More later.

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Old 2011-02-13, 15:20   Link #1451
BashZeStampeedo
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Originally Posted by JThree View Post
Whether it's right or wrong is up to your personal beliefs

Now I don't know if I agree with this. I guess it's the absolutist in me, while I may not totally understand them, somewhere out there is an absolute right and wrong. Being human, my reasoning of them is flawed, but I still hope they're out there . . . somewhere over the rainbow.
Yet how can you possibly know what's right and wrong or even truth in this case? That's what beliefs are for. Even if there was such a thing as a "right" or "wrong", you could still have it wrong and never know.

Besides, while there are times in real life when it seems as though moral absolutism is something that could work (though we could argue about that until the cows come home), in the realm of fiction and imagination there is no need to lock yourself down so strongly to your beliefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by JThree View Post
Understood, but beliefs whether personal or not, influence us day by day, from the little decisions to the big ones. We live them, rather or not, we express them verbally is another.
As long as you are expressing them with the understanding that they WILL eventually be challenged, and they MAY eventually change, there's no problem with sharing your beliefs.. otherwise there is no real conversation or room for debate, is there?

Being strongly romantic about love is fun and all, but beliefs aren't enough for everyone. Everyone loves and copes with loss in their own ways, and taking an absolutist stance about it doesn't begin a conversation - it ends it.

I think the basic problem here is that we are all projecting our desires onto this fictional couple. To bring this back to the story itself, what I want is merely an ending that shows us how THEY deal with their problems, not something written merely to placate the fans or contrive an ending to a story that may not need one.
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Old 2011-02-13, 22:08   Link #1452
JThree
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
Yet how can you possibly know what's right and wrong or even truth in this case? That's what beliefs are for. Even if there was such a thing as a "right" or "wrong", you could still have it wrong and never know.
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post

Now, that's an excellent point.

Besides, while there are times in real life when it seems as though moral absolutism is something that could work (though we could argue about that until the cows come home), in the realm of fiction and imagination there is no need to lock yourself down so strongly to your beliefs


As long as you are expressing them with the understanding that they WILL eventually be challenged, and they MAY eventually change, there's no problem with sharing your beliefs.. otherwise there is no real conversation or room for debate, is there?Being strongly romantic about love is fun and all, but beliefs aren't enough for everyone. Everyone loves and copes with loss in their own ways, and taking an absolutist stance about it doesn't begin a conversation - it ends it.

Challenging is good. I agree with you there, it forces us to take some hard looks at ourselves. You may be right that it does end a conversation, but doesn't even Yoda say, "There is no try, either do, or do not." I'm sorry but sometimes beliefs are all some people have to keep them going when times are really tough. The hope that things will be made better someday, somehow is all that keeps them putting one foot in front of the either.

I think the basic problem here is that we are all projecting our desires onto this fictional couple. To bring this back to the story itself, what I want is merely an ending that shows us how THEY deal with their problems, not something written merely to placate the fans or contrive an ending to a story that may not need one.


Good analysis.

JThree
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Old 2011-02-13, 23:15   Link #1453
BashZeStampeedo
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I'm sorry but sometimes beliefs are all some people have to keep them going when times are really tough. The hope that things will be made better someday, somehow is all that keeps them putting one foot in front of the either.
Beliefs definitely are a powerful thing, and can be the source of what we'd call "salvation" or the cause of our despair in the first place. You can just as easily say that your "intellect" was what got you through a crisis, or your "ability to adapt".

While it's certainly a nice sentiment (in the sense that it gives people the impression they'll always have something to fall back on that feels a bit supernatural), it's underselling the truth of the situation and the human component a great deal in my eyes.

Remember that people tend to evaluate and change their beliefs at times of despair. It is honestly more your full strength of character that gets you through such moments - your belief in YOURSELF, to be more precise. Your entire belief-system may be entirely gutted, hollowed-out, and then replaced during a personal crisis.

So while I'm not quite disagreeing with you, I simply think that people have a tendency to attribute their success or survival to over-simplified causes. They need to give themselves a little more credit, and realize that beliefs are simply one of the tools they have when they have nothing to rely on but themselves.

And beliefs are meant to change and mature, from believing in Santa Claus to perhaps believing that love is something eternal. Beliefs have a wonderful tendency to "refine" themselves as you fill in gaps of knowledge and experience, acting as the rest of the glue you need to carry on in the real world (for those things you don't really have any answers for). There's no need to assume that they will vanish in a puff of cold, relentless logic. They won't.

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Old 2011-02-14, 13:51   Link #1454
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So, may I request for a bit more juicy spoilers.

I'm thankful for the previous spoiler that was posted, but I'd like a few more details. I'd really like to know what happened in the final volume.
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Old 2011-02-15, 09:17   Link #1455
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Looking through the posts... I don't think a lot of the younger readers "get it". Even with two mortals, there's a high chance one will outlive the other and have to carry on in some way. There's simply isn't any "forever after". All things are transient - you experience them, cherish the moment, grieve when its gone, and move on til you don't anymore yourself.

The Horo/Lawrence story is simply an extreme example of this bit of truth.
Although you are correct at some points, there is a counter argument within Vol16 as well.
Although I am only half way through there is one point that make a very strong point as a reason why Holo refuses to voice out an obvious solution since she understand the outcome and will be forced to witness the consequences as she carries on in her everlasting life although it maybe the best solution at that certain point.
One other thing I find amusing is a coincidence in events that is a hotly debate in the news right now here in Japan.
I bet Shikura, the author is rolling on the floor laughing right now seeing how things are unfolding seeing the peculiar similarity being "staged".
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Old 2011-02-15, 13:25   Link #1456
JThree
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One other thing I find amusing is a coincidence in events that is a hotly debate in the news right now here in Japan.
I bet Shikura, the author is rolling on the floor laughing right now seeing how things are unfolding seeing the peculiar similarity being "staged".

Could you tell us, what this debate in the news is? Please, I'd like to know.
I'd love to know what this situation is?

JThree
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Old 2011-02-16, 07:33   Link #1457
Tri-ring
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I finished reading through it and left me with a lot of thoughts.
I think Shikura did well in fleshing out dualism of human society creating a modern day wise-man's tale in a medieval setting which a lot more people should be aware of especially after the fall of one of Babel's tower of today.

As for JThree's question, I think it's more entertaining if you find the punch-line yourself.


=== Edit ===
In a way at the end of novel shikura writes wisdom to Holo's future self, "Don't just sit there find yourself another mate, time is a constant current and you can't linger on in the past forever, YOU KNOW"
In Holo's own words so don't worry she had embrace in full what life is all about.
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Old 2011-02-16, 15:31   Link #1458
JThree
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I finished reading through it and left me with a lot of thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post

Now, I'm worried, the deeper the book, the plot; the less likely a happy ending.

I think Shikura did well in fleshing out dualism of human society creating a modern day wise-man's tale in a medieval setting which a lot more people should be aware of especially after the fall of one of Babel's tower of today.

Ok. Now, I'm really worried.

As for JThree's question, I think it's more entertaining if you find the punch-line yourself.


Dang it! I want spoilers now. What ever this punch-line is, if I have to spend time looking for it, it'll just give me a headache.

=== Edit ===
In a way at the end of novel shikura writes wisdom to Holo's future self, "Don't just sit there find yourself another mate, time is a constant current and you can't linger on in the past forever, YOU KNOW"
In Holo's own words so don't worry she had embrace in full what life is all about.:cool
:
I'm getting the heebies-jeebies here. This isn't good.

JThree
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Old 2011-02-16, 16:01   Link #1459
tyranuus
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Quote:
I'm getting the heebies-jeebies here. This isn't good.
I think
Quote:
In a way at the end of novel shikura writes wisdom to Holo's future self, "Don't just sit there find yourself another mate, time is a constant current and you can't linger on in the past forever, YOU KNOW"
In Holo's own words so don't worry she had embrace in full what life is all about.
is a fairly good sign

To me that suggests Lawrence probably lives a happy life with Holo, and in spending said time with Lawrence, Holo learns to embrace life, rather than constantly remembering the past; be it Lawrence, or be it her ties to Pasloe after the people had forgotten about.

Always look forward to the good in new experiences, never constantly face backwards.

We shall see, but whilst book 17 may be sad, I think it'll be fulfilling in some ways. Book 16 is the end of the quest as we understand it, Book 17 seems to be somewhat an extended side story epilogue to thier travels, which given thier comparative ages and lifespan was always likely to end one way, but if they enjoyed the time they had, does that matter?
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Old 2011-02-16, 21:40   Link #1460
Rajura
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I'm okay with that kind of bitter-sweet ending.

If they do get to spend their lives together, I would be okay with Holo finding someone else that she could love. It's not that she has to be with someone, but it's that she could be with someone else and not feel that her love for Lawrence is being betrayed or diminished in any way.

She (as do all of us) deserves to not be chained to her past... look what happened in Pasloe. It's just a more intimate mirror of the same type of situation.

However, I will admit I don't know how I will feel seeing another male with her... he'd better be a well-designed character and NOT simply a Lawrence clone... that would cheapen her development as a character!
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