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Old 2008-04-08, 18:09   Link #81
Mentar
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My, my...

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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Not at all. The police uniforms looked right. I give them that. (Although if this is set in the near future Saxony might have switched to the new trendy blue ones by then.)
Police uniforms were spot-on. That was the first thing I noticed.

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The license plates where wrong in form and content. An ambulance might be red if it belongs to the fire department but as far as I know all ambulances of the German Red Cross are white/beige.
Most of them are, but not all of them.

Quote:
"Deutsches Rotes Kreuz" was written "Deutscher Roter Xrenz" or something like that. Let's assume at Gonzo replaced 'Kreuz' by gibberish instead of something useful because 'Xrenz' looks like 'Kreuz' if shown only for a split second. But in that case why changing the gender of the word? It's probably simply a grammatical error. (I don't think the DRK would or even could sue them anyway, but OK.)
For japanese artists, the K in Kreuz looks very much like a X. I'm able to forgive them for that. At least they actually researched about the organization at all. I bet if I had to paint kanjis unknown to me, they'd have comparable errors in them.

Quote:
The sports commentator's pathos had me rolling. I have never, ever heard a TV commentator claiming somebody or something being "blessed by God". This is not the US.
Oh, really? Then you haven't been watching F1 racing on Premiere or RTL. People like Niki Lauda many times refer to "divine" maneauvers and skills. In fact, it's rather very normal (though usually delivered with a bit less pathos)

Quote:
Characters had names highly uncommon for people of their age, or any age.
Scuse me, but since when do names change with age? Forget I asked, I don't think I want to know *shakes head in puzzlement*

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I'm not complaining about these details.
Of course you are. That's about the only thing your entire post is about.

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I didn't expect another Monster and your typical anime studio often can't even spell an English word with less than 5 letters right. And Blassreiter(*) fails on completely different levels anyway.
Explanation for non-speakers: Blass = Pale, Reiter = Rider, so the target was supposed to be the German equivalent of "Pale Rider". Okay, let's hear it. What's your preferred translation for pale rider, which makes a decent name? Without going into an unsuited "Der" construct?

Blassreiter is atypical, but acceptable as a compound word.

Quote:
But my point is: Pretty much everything they could screw up they did screw up.
And this is exactly what I was talking about when I was pointing out the elitist whining. Of course your blanket complaint is (excuse me) BS. It's the usual whining of the mindset for which the glass is 1/3rd empty rather than 2/3rd full. For details see below.

Quote:
I honestly don't know what details you mean. I didn't notice any other country-specific detail. Only generic or 'generic Western' at best.
The uniform. The general looks of the characters (though the color of the squad leader was unusual). The DRK reference. The styling of the hospital, and the way it's embedded in a forest/hill landscape. The EloKa tank Fuchs (though the original has 6 tires). The round public phone over which Gerd's girlfriend dumped him. Just for starters...

Was it perfect? Heck no, it never is. I never claimed it was either. But enough small details caused me to recognize the originals and showed that some extra effort went into it, extra effort I'd like to commend. If you feel the need to whine about typos in the text - more power to you. Please move on and watch some Lucky Star. But this vicious nonsense like "messed up everything they could" is incorrect and somehow grates on my nerves.

Some fairness would go a long way. How about it?
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Old 2008-04-08, 20:33   Link #82
MrProphet
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OK, we get it. You liked it. Being so argessively defensive is pushing it a bit too much. So stop.

I just watched it and found it to be KARAS but without the huge budget. Integration of very long scenes with cell-shaded 3DCG never really worked even in KARAS, even with all the hard work put into it, but this technique looked particularily garish in Blassreiter.

I don't mind when they go all in (a la Appleseed or Vexille), but in traditional animating 3DCG should only be used for object modeling or digital processing, not for creating the whole scene. It doesn't matter if it's done well or not, the very fact that the whole scene is rendered makes it off-putting. Too much contrast.

That's just the presentation. The plot didn't inspire either, unfortunately. Sorry, but moping is not equivalent to "character development". Especially when you then proceed fix everything with a single pill.

Oh, and goddamit, Japan, stop using P90 or FN F2000 for your generic "futuristic specops rifle"! P90 is goddamn submachine gun, it doesn't have any magical robot-killing powers.
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Old 2008-04-08, 21:28   Link #83
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Who are you, my mother?

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Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post
OK, we get it. You liked it. Being so argessively defensive is pushing it a bit too much. So stop.
Okay, we get it. You didn't like it. Being so haughtily dismissive - especially with this avatar - is pushing it way too much. So leave.

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I just watched it and found it to be KARAS but without the huge budget. Integration of very long scenes with cell-shaded 3DCG never really worked even in KARAS, even with all the hard work put into it, but this technique looked particularily garish in Blassreiter.
Fair enough, I guess. I don't agree, but that's an issue of personal preference.

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I don't mind when they go all in (a la Appleseed or Vexille), but in traditional animating 3DCG should only be used for object modeling or digital processing, not for creating the whole scene. It doesn't matter if it's done well or not, the very fact that the whole scene is rendered makes it off-putting. Too much contrast.
Let's add an "in my opinion" and again, fair enough. Because it's not like your opinion would be any more than that: Your opinion. Many people will disagree here.

Quote:
That's just the presentation. The plot didn't inspire either, unfortunately. Sorry, but moping is not equivalent to "character development". Especially when you then proceed fix everything with a single pill.
So you seriously demand character development in episode 1?? Wow. Besides, I don't see anything "fixed". Did you hear this thing scream after the battle? This reaction is so out of character for Gerd that you can feel it with a 10-foot-pole that something is seriously wrong with these pills, and I guess it will be part of the story what it is.

Quote:
Oh, and goddamit, Japan, stop using P90 or FN F2000 for your generic "futuristic specops rifle"! P90 is goddamn submachine gun, it doesn't have any magical robot-killing powers.
And which guns would have? Mr. Anti-Robot specialist?

So what weapons would you rather suggest? Assault rifles? There's a reason why most special ops operate with submachine small arms: They're easy to carry, move and handle, and due to the short-range nature of the expected conflicts, they are the best option. So why not here?
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Old 2008-04-08, 22:10   Link #84
Crystal_Method
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post
I don't mind when they go all in (a la Appleseed or Vexille), but in traditional animating 3DCG should only be used for object modeling or digital processing, not for creating the whole scene. It doesn't matter if it's done well or not, the very fact that the whole scene is rendered makes it off-putting. Too much contrast.

That's just the presentation. The plot didn't inspire either, unfortunately. Sorry, but moping is not equivalent to "character development". Especially when you then proceed fix everything with a single pill.
At least we all can agree that the 3d stuff is not good. However, character development doesn't usually occur in the first episode, it merely is for an introduction of characters. Maybe none of the characters appealed to you, and thats fine, but I hope you know the supposed main protagonist barely even made an appearance in this episode. The guy who took the pill for all I know is a douchebag, of course that's my own opinion, but I do agree a pill shouldn't be able to rid all problems in one's life.

I can't exert though how many shows I hated for such stupid reasons and at this point I have to admit that I'm really envious of the people who are able to appreciate any and all anime. So I'm really happy that I actually find this series equally enjoyable to something that everyone seems to love, like all KyoAni series.
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Old 2008-04-09, 00:31   Link #85
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Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post
P90 is goddamn submachine gun, it doesn't have any magical robot-killing powers.
For a specop that rides on bikes fighting in urban areas that would most likely be involved in CQB, I'd say the P90 is a pretty damn convincing choice. The reason is due to the 5.7x28mm rounds it uses which has more penetration power than your standard 9mmx18mm rounds used in most real submachine guns such as the famous H&K MP5. The rounds used in a P90 is designed to be able to penetrate body arm whereas most submachine guns using 9mm bullets won't be. Plus as stated it has an advantage of size/weight over a full assult rifle, has near assult rifle firepower (a full assult rifle is probably too powerful too, as the stray bullets of highly penetrating full assult rifle rounds in an urban area can make collatoral damage pretty high, the primary reason that specops in urban area rarely use assult rifles in the first place), and can be fired one-handed due to it's excellent balance and much lower recoil than assult rifles. Plus in RL the P90 *is* used by a number of specops and CT forces.

Strictly speaking German specops would most likely be using the H&K MP7 (the direct competitor to the P90) as they do in RL, but it's just not as futuristic looking and stylish.
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Old 2008-04-09, 01:31   Link #86
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There's something very campy about this show that I actually found it appealing enough to keep me interested for more.

Moreover, I'm also liking the character designs which is always a big plus in my book. The use of CG on the other hand, not so much. The first episode isn't incredibly exciting or anything, but a good enough start in my opinion. I don't think it's going to be my most anticipated must-watch anime for this season, and yet I'm also curious enough to see how it goes on from here.


But apparently, since this is Gonzo we're talking about, ( ) you just know that there's going to be some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that will render this series as a total failure. Ahh, how that saddens me. [/sarcasm]

Last edited by kujoe; 2008-04-09 at 03:36.
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Old 2008-04-09, 03:28   Link #87
orion
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It's only a self-fulfilling prophesy because being GONZO people will try to find any problem as a justification for the title being bad. Just look at the number of posts about the CG in a TV series whose CG was better than Vexille's which was a theatrical movie. When the CG wasn't enough to bring the thread into full agreement, out pops the problem with the on location references. But that still wasn't enough, so now we have a sub-machine gun problem.

As with the on location research, I still say the majority couldn't give a d**** about which sub-machine is the best for motorcycle cops to use to take down Demoniacs.

This is entertainment guys. Most series released aren't analyzed the way this one is here. If you feel the need to constantly pick apart this title, then perhaps you should watch something else.
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Old 2008-04-09, 03:34   Link #88
kujoe
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
It's only a self-fulfilling prophesy because being GONZO people will try to find any problem as a justification for the title being bad. Just look at the number of posts about the CG in a TV series whose CG was better than Vexille's which was a theatrical movie. When the CG wasn't enough to bring the thread into full agreement, out pops the problem with the on location references. But that still wasn't enough, so now we have a sub-machine gun problem.
Well...yeah. Just in case it wasn't obvious, I was actually being sarcastic. You just practically said it plainly for me.
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Old 2008-04-09, 03:42   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Crystal_Method View Post
At least we all can agree that the 3d stuff is not good.
Please, speak for yourself. While I agree the bikes in the first part of the epizode could have got a better rendition, the AXT/Demoniac models and fights in the later part were stylish enough to make a good impression on me. The first episode was style over substance, nothing more or less about it. It's another thing if you didn't like the style.
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
But people complaining too much does tend to drift the thread away from actually discussing the show which annoys me to no end.
Indeed, this is like Minami-ke ~Okawari~ all over again. =_=/
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Old 2008-04-09, 04:35   Link #90
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
The reason is due to the 5.7x28mm rounds it uses which has more penetration power than your standard 9mmx18mm rounds
9x19. Oh, an that's a slightly contentious issue. Though that's irrelevant to this discussion, so whatever.

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Plus in RL the P90 *is* used by a number of specops and CT forces.
That's what got me. They are using a PDW again an armored robot. But at the same time they've used anti-materiel rifles against it (I don't remember if it was M82 or something).

So, on one hand, a personal defence weapon. On the other hand, a .50BMG. That doesn't really square. Either they are underdressed, or overdressed. Pick one. Judging by their efficacy during the takedown, I'd say an SMG is not suitable to stop the thing.

Quote:
Strictly speaking German specops would most likely be using the H&K MP7 (the direct competitor to the P90) as they do in RL, but it's just not as futuristic looking and stylish.
Personally, I'd expect a dedicated robot-hunting team to be using something that, at least, uses AP rounds. Oh, and there are more than enough carbine-sized rifles that use an intermediate cartridge and which are just as compact as a PDW.

But, once again, it's at most shrug-worthy, nothing more. As you can see, discussing P90 is a lot more interesting that discussing the finer points of this show. If the neither-here-nor-there nature of this thread doesn't tell you anything, folks, then what would? 8)
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Old 2008-04-09, 04:40   Link #91
orion
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Actually it's "here nor there" because people feel the need to pick apart a title at episode one because it's a GONZO title rather than waiting for more episodes.

Don't try to justify your actions based on a discussion of sub-machine guns being more interesting than the title.

Is this now another reason why the show is bad?

Seriously, how many "reasons" do we have to put up with here?
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Old 2008-04-09, 04:48   Link #92
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well i guess we have to the pessimistic folks in almost every series thread, i knew this series of all names wouldnt be any exception to the rule with the GONZO factor being involved. Lets just hope it isnt as bad as other series threads.
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Old 2008-04-09, 04:48   Link #93
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why robot? demoniacs are not robot.. they are organic creatures.. they do fuse with some inorganic matter but i think that killing them before (which is what they are aiming for) is possible without armor piercing bullets..


and about the other things mentioned, I still think that the CGI in the second half were great and are actually a plus...


oh and people get used to it, if it's GONZO anything less then something which is exceptionally great would get at least 50% GONZO bashing in it's thread..
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Old 2008-04-09, 04:52   Link #94
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LOL. You've got it all backwards. I am one of them rare pro-GONZO people. I'm just disappointed by the ridiculousness of this series.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, there are works that are not supposed to be anything but a guilty pleasure and I've never ever rained on their parade even when having found them idiotic. A guilty pleasure can be as stupid and as gratuitous as it wants to be.

My problem is that Blassreiter has pretentions of thoroughness and dramatic credibility, yet doesn't live up to either. Forget the presentation, give me something interesting, something thoughtful to watch! Wall-hopping plastic toys and non-sensical deus ex machina plot devices were a bit exasperating to say the least.

PS: Oh, and a notice to all of you "Enjoy or GTFO" people. This isn't how life works. Get over it.
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Old 2008-04-09, 04:59   Link #95
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Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post

PS: Oh, and a notice to all of you "Enjoy or GTFO" people. This isn't how life works. Get over it.
I can certainly understand that side as well, its not going to be rosie all the time
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Old 2008-04-09, 05:21   Link #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post
LOL. You've got it all backwards. I am one of them rare pro-GONZO people. I'm just disappointed by the ridiculousness of this series.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, there are works that are not supposed to be anything but a guilty pleasure and I've never ever rained on their parade even when having found them idiotic. A guilty pleasure can be as stupid and as gratuitous as it wants to be.

My problem is that Blassreiter has pretentions of thoroughness and dramatic credibility, yet doesn't live up to either. Forget the presentation, give me something interesting, something thoughtful to watch! Wall-hopping plastic toys and non-sensical deus ex machina plot devices were a bit exasperating to say the least.

PS: Oh, and a notice to all of you "Enjoy or GTFO" people. This isn't how life works. Get over it.
i wasn't talking specifically about you,

but i do think your being too nitpicking here, artistically it's a matter of taste so i'm not gonna argue with you.
but i will say that today most animes digitally produced use CGI for placing of object,so generally speaking a lot of the scene you see are already hybrids of cgi and hand drawing.. at the moment the main barrier is specifically using CGI for a humanoid and i think that its getting really close to real hand painted drawings..
so just saying that the fact it's rendered makes it bad is too much in my opinion..
what should matter is how it comes out in the end, not how it was done..


but story wise i think for a start it's not bad.. sure its not the best ever but the problems you had seem to pre-judge it and are based mostly on your predictions for the future..
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Old 2008-04-09, 05:50   Link #97
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Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post
LOL. You've got it all backwards. I am one of them rare pro-GONZO people. I'm just disappointed by the ridiculousness of this series.
Pretty much every anime is ridiculous in one way or another, thasts why they're anime and not documentaries.

Episode 1 is all thats out and it's being ripped to shreds for no reason. I've just watched episode 1 through twice in a row, and i honestly cant fault it. I don't get the complaints about the CG, but then granted i know squat about bikes. Though IMO they looked pretty damn good to me.

Overal i really enjoyed the episode and am looking forward to seeing ep2
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Old 2008-04-09, 06:31   Link #98
MrProphet
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Originally Posted by Jiyuu View Post
so just saying that the fact it's rendered makes it bad is too much in my opinion..
I think you misrepresent my opinions a little bit.

I have categorically stated that I have no prejudice against computer-rendered animation at all. However, as I've noted, there is time and place for everything.

In my experience, CGI looks good in traditional, 2D animation when it's used for specific tasks, like modeling an object (like a car, or a bike) that has to perform movements which would be time-consuming to hand-draw. CGI can also be used for digital processing, that is adding a digital finish to a hand-animated scene in order to give it a specific look and feel.

What I find objectionable in Blassreiter is the fact that they have several long scenes that are completely rendered by a computer without any hand-drawn backgrounds, or any hand-drawn animation pieces. It is tantamount to taking a scene from Appleseed and inserting it in the middile of a traditional animation.

You cannot cell-shade CGI enough to make it look hand-drawn, even with a large OVA-sized budget (which Blassreiter does not have), which means that the two scenes (CGI and traditional) would contrast too much with each other and would not look organically-integrated.

I am not one of those people who just generally say "3DCG is bad". I KNOW why it doesn't work for me in this particular instance. There are specific reasons why people shouldn't do this unless they know how to mitigate the described effect. Blassreiter staff does not, or, at least, didn't attempt to.
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Old 2008-04-09, 07:23   Link #99
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first of all there wasn't any scene that didn't have any hand drawn elements..
even in what you are probably referring to as the full CGI has most of it use 3d models with hand drawn images on them (ghibli do that all the time).
and I'm almost sure that almost all of the "hand drawn" scenes use that technique for their backgrounds..

also about the cell shading,
Spoiler for ep1 image:

i don't know what it's to you but to me large parts of that image seem like they could pass as hand drawn..
its only a matter of time before it will be possible to render in a way that will look hand drawn..



btw, now that i passed on the first ep again
Spoiler for ep1:
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Old 2008-04-09, 07:33   Link #100
MrProphet
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I don't have the file with me anymore, but I am fairly certain that all backgrounds in the motorcycle race scene were pre-rendered. It was especially bad when they had that "everything turns red" part.

The only exception that I might remember right now is the shot where they show Gert's face through his helmet.

Also, that screenshot is painfully obvious. I don't know how anyone would mistake that metallic tinge for hand-drawn animation.
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