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Old 2008-02-10, 14:45   Link #41
felix
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Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
Why don't we see Shin doing any work?
He's mothers little boy.

Seriously though: he dances, makes couples ~ ian't that enough.
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Old 2008-02-10, 23:51   Link #42
golthin
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I just have to say that after this episode I have completely changed my opinion of Hiromi. I liked her a lot and now I am rooting for her. I feel bad for Aiko, but Hiromi really has it bad and she deserve to be happy with the one she truelly loves.

My heart was in a knot when she said that she was a terrible person and started crying. It is not easy to hurt the one you love just to get him to leave you alone for his sake.
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Old 2008-02-12, 17:45   Link #43
Kaoru Chujo
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...Why don't we see Shin doing any work?
He's the botchan (young master), not Cinderella. And he has also been told by his father that he can work on his drawing. I do hope he does something, however, off-screen. He does do plenty of moping, but I guess that's not the same as mopping.

As for Hiromi, I find her a wonderfully complex Cinderella, gentle, patient, long-suffering, but daring as well. She loves Shin (must be habit, because I don't see many other reasons), but I don't think she is indifferent to Jun's charms. I was probably wrong to think she was telling the truth about liking Jun, but I still think the idea did not come out of thin air, and had some truth about it. That breathless reentry after he caressed her was great.

I'm still most attached to the unique Noe, but Hiromi and Aiko are very attractive in many ways.
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Old 2008-02-12, 18:34   Link #44
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It's good to see that besides being flawed in a way, she also has a "humane" side. It's always nice to see the reason behind her actions even if they aren't answers to the problem. She is still a lier but I guess I can cut her some slack compared to beforehand. Now the blame is being shifted to shin's mum
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Old 2008-02-12, 18:56   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
As for Hiromi, I find her a wonderfully complex Cinderella, gentle, patient, long-suffering, but daring as well. She loves Shin (must be habit, because I don't see many other reasons), but I don't think she is indifferent to Jun's charms. I was probably wrong to think she was telling the truth about liking Jun, but I still think the idea did not come out of thin air, and had some truth about it. That breathless reentry after he caressed her was great.

Spoiler for contains mention of episode 6 events:

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-12 at 19:30.
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Old 2008-02-12, 22:17   Link #46
Kaoru Chujo
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Cloudninja, your post makes perfect sense. Maybe that's how it is. But...
Spoiler for ep6:
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Old 2008-02-12, 23:10   Link #47
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Spoiler for specific details about episode 04:

Please don’t expect too much out of this; this is the plain depiction of my thoughts. **I'm aware i'm two episodes behind, but oh well...** >.<

Anything beyond this point is merely speculation from my part based on the fourth episode. The episode in question started with a conversation between Hiromi and Shin about her relationship with Jun (number 4). Disregarding whatever question Shin might have asked her about, Hiromi’s answer/explanation (from her point of view) is for the most part sincere, but if that’s the case, what is she trying to convey with those words? I get the impression she was trying to be ambiguous, leaving her feelings unsettled because whatever other answer she might have given to Shin, it would have affected him as result—either with false hope or rejection. However, she said something interesting at the end, “That’s impossible for me.” The literal meaning would be the hopelessness of bringing any possible relationship with Jun to a romantic fruition, but that might not be the only interpretation to her words. She might be already interested in someone else as her heart is the one dictating her actions, and thus, unable to pursue any other option without going against her very own feelings. This interpretation, while it stretches her words too far, allows the idea that love was never one of her choices—if Shin is supposed to be the chosen one… In any case, Hiromi intended to convey the latter two in her words—the fact she may harbor feelings for him and the fact she doesn’t have the alternative to love the person closest to her. Besides all these ambiguity and/or endless ways to understand it, there’s probably one conclusion that can be drawn from the situation—Hiromi was relieved, and happy to certain extent, of having this little conversation with him (just by looking at the contrast between the events in the first episodes and the events that occur in this one). This further strengthens my belief that she has finally realized how important is to hold the people closest to her as closer as possible even if that means spending her time talking about a third person.

Half-way through the episode, a very strange/awkward conversation popped up. It was a conversation between Shin and Hiromi about their relationship—if we forget that number 4 was mentioned multiple times. The scene started with Hiromi asking a very obvious thing, “Are you trying to avoid me?” For the moment I will not include Shin’s point of view on the matter and concentrate on this quote alone. Given the fact this is the first thing that comes out of her mouth (sort of), it is quite possible that being avoided by Shin is affecting her to some extent in order to bother asking such a question in the first place; of course, she doesn’t want that to happen either. This situation gives me solid evidence on how much Hiromi has come to understand that distancing herself from Shin was never a good choice, as opposed to the rejoicing/relieving feeling of talking with him at the beginning of the episode. The conversation continues and after the double apology, she says something along the lines of “It’s not that… I wanted to” as a direct response to Shin’s line, “I couldn’t come up with something like that.” There are many theories that can be brought up to interpret this situation but I will go with my belief that she never intended to give the impression of having a strong interest for someone she only knew by a mere number—although her conversation with Tomoyo led to a different conclusion. She wanted, however, to convey something else, and hesitated more than once as result—even when she was about to enter Shin’s room in a latter scene. But continuing with the conversation itself, it ended up in a really strange note with Hiromi in the verge of tears right after Shin says the line, “It’s not fair.” It’s the only line that can possibly hurt Hiromi the most if you notice that up to this point her life was no less than completely unfair. Her parents die, she is forced to live with Shin’s family, she is alone in there with nobody to trust/believe except perhaps for Shin. However, when this very person—the only one she can actually rely on inside of that house—tells her that it was unfair to depend on him, there’s something that doesn't make sense—when Shin hasn’t experienced the same struggles/sufferings Hiromi did. **After watching the sixth episode, there’s one more thing that it’s unfair to Hiromi, but I will discuss it in another post. **

The last scene of the episode was a heart-warming sketch in which Hiromi allows herself to laugh cheerfully without worries—truly enjoying the moment. Up to this point, this is probably the only scene in which Hiromi showed that she can laugh as well inside of that dreadful house. I want to continue something I started in my last post about what does it take to make Hiromi happy… episode 04 has given me strong grounds to believe that every moment/situation where she can be close to Shin is a moment of happiness and it pains her more than enough to be separated from him as we have seen in that awkward conversation (actually, her pain is more Shin-related than anything else after recent episodes, so I will discuss it later on, hopefully).
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Old 2008-02-13, 00:48   Link #48
Kaoru Chujo
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Great stuff from Falkor. I'm especially interested in how happy/relieved Hiromi seemed in the conversation with Shin after having "revealed" that she was interested in Jun, talking about how she met him, etc. I've always thought that showed she might really have some feelings for Jun, and was relieved to be able to communicate with Shin openly about them.

But now I see that it is also possible she just liked being able to communicate about anything with Shin.

However, I can't fully agree with "...episode 04 has given me strong grounds to believe that every moment/situation where she can be close to Shin is a moment of happiness and it pains her more than enough to be separated from him." She seems like a happy person when she is away from him with her girlfriends at school. Of course this is mainly just being out of her prison at his house, but we didn't until ep4 see her at ease with him anywhere, and then we saw it both outside and inside the house.
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:26   Link #49
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It's interesting to see some of the negativity that some posters have directed towards Hiromi in the forum.

For some it is because they missed some important details in the show that would let them understand her better. For others it is because they can't or don't want to understand and empathize with Hiromi's situation. She does have a more difficult past and tougher current situation than the other girls.

I like all 3 girls. They each have their strong points and faults. I'd rather try to understand them instead of hating on one because I favor another.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-17 at 16:47.
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Old 2008-02-17, 23:27   Link #50
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I think the negativity stems from the opinion that she's not the right girl for Shin, rather than any overwhelming character flaw. She makes her share of mistakes and can be rather difficult at times, but much of it is due to her situation.

If placed in a better situation she would probably be OK. That's the reason I'm still rooting for Jun, who represents a fresh start from all the emotional baggage she's carrying around.
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Old 2008-02-19, 02:36   Link #51
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If placed in a better situation she would probably be OK. That's the reason I'm still rooting for Jun, who represents a fresh start from all the emotional baggage she's carrying around.
And a large dose of ulterior motives and not a slimmer of actual feelings for her. There is nothing good awaiting Hiromi in her going out with Jun. She is in a somewhat vulnerable state now, and he is clearly not above manipulating people to his goals. I don't see how this could represent a "fresh start" in any positive way.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:05   Link #52
Kaoru Chujo
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As mentioned in the thread for ep7, Hiromi seems reserved and withdrawn in eps1-2, then gets warmer and more relaxed around Shin in eps 3-5, then returns to withdrawn, with the addition of a bit angry, after he comes into her room in ep5.

The question in my mind is why did she become more relaxed there for a while? The only thing I can see is the conversation about Jun she had with Shin, walking home. He was struck with how different she seemed, happier, as if he had been misinterpreting her interior life. Why did she suddenly become more relaxed?

Could it be that she was pleased to be able to talk to Shin as a brother, with any romantic ideas set aside? She has seen him with Noe and has told him she likes "#4", so they can forget about romance. She "knows" he is her brother, so she wants to steer clear of it. She can express her liking for him and put the scarf around his neck because he is in a brother role rather than a potential lover role. Then he starts interfering in her love life and things get complicated.

The other possibility is that she is angry with him in her room because she wanted him to be romantic. But then I can't see a stimulus for her brief period of being warm and friendly. Unless it's just that she was forced to talk with him on the way home, even if it was about Jun, and the contact made her happy.

Whether or not she really is his sister, she believes she probably is, at least up to ep7, so I can't see her thinking it's okay to be romantic with him.

I'd like to add that I am hopeful for Jun, too. He's a dangerous guy, but his caring for Noe makes me think he has a good heart, after all. Maybe he's a kind of tsundere. I also got a good feeling from his and Hiromi's little meeting in the park. After hearing her serious remarks, he decided to give her a ride home. And you can tell from her reaction after he touched her lips that he moves her. I feel he may learn to like her, too, although he just went out with her for Noe's sake in the first place. Jun and Hiromi appear to be in the same situation: living with inappropriate feelings for a sibling.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:09   Link #53
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I think the negativity stems from the opinion that she's not the right girl for Shin, rather than any overwhelming character flaw.
guilty as charged! I hated the girl for the first 5 and 9/10 episodes. I chaged my opinion of her after I found out why she was the way she was. Now I don't hate her at all. I am amazed that people still hate her. I Pity her because she is in such an impossible situation and of the three girls she deserves a happy end.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:39   Link #54
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As mentioned in the thread for ep7, Hiromi seems reserved and withdrawn in eps1-2, then gets warmer and more relaxed around Shin in eps 3-5, then returns to withdrawn, with the addition of a bit angry, after he comes into her room in ep5.

The question in my mind is why did she become more relaxed there for a while?

I'd like to add that I am hopeful for Jun, too. He's a dangerous guy, but his caring for Noe makes me think he has a good heart, after all. Maybe he's a kind of tsundere. I also got a good feeling from his and Hiromi's little meeting in the park. After hearing her serious remarks, he decided to give her a ride home. And you can tell from her reaction after he touched her lips that he moves her. I feel he may learn to like her, too, although he just went out with her for Noe's sake in the first place. Jun and Hiromi appear to be in the same situation: living with inappropriate feelings for a sibling.
In episode 3, watch from 11:35 to 14:33. I think she came to the realization that it was a mistake to seal her feelings for Shin, and Noe was the catalyst that forced her to reconsider keeping her distance from Shin. It already started in episode 2 when Hiromi had her first flashback and asked herself "What Do I Want To Do?" but she took another step forward with the second flashback in episode 3. Also watch from 15:40 in episode 3 to see how cheerfully she greets him the following morning.

I think that from Hiromi's perspective she had enough doubt about what Shin's mother said to allow her to make attempts to get closer to Shinichiro. Her doubt shows that what Shin's mother said was not definitive and we could already see in episode 2 that Hiromi was thinking to herself "What do I want to do?". The possibility of being Shin's sister was enough to make Hiromi distance herself from Shinichiro for the past year until Noe's presence in Shin's life prompted Hiromi to reconsider her decision to seal her feelings for Shin. By not continuing to distance herself and in fact attempting to get closer to Shin we can tell that Hiromi has some hope that she is not Shin's sister. Enough hope that she was not willing to stay away and watch as someone took Shin away from her. What Shin's mother said though is still enough to keep Hiromi in that half-way state that prevents her from revealing her feelings to Shin and that 3-way encounter between Hiromi, Shin's mother, and Shin in episode 6 brought further development of their relationship to a standstill.

As for Jun touching her lips, she probably has'nt been close to a boy since she was little, probably with Shinichiro. Her reaction was normal for a shy and inexperienced girl who suddenly had intimate contact forced on her. If it was'nt for Hiromi's moment of weakness(shock actually) after hearing Jun say that Shin and Noe were going to date she probably would'nt have allowed him to get that close and do that much. It does'nt say much about Jun or any possible relationship between them if he has to rely on moments of vulnerability from Hiromi to make progress with her. Why did he have a smirk after realizing by the shock on Hiromi's face that she liked Shin? If he had good intentions I would have expected a sympathetic and caring expression instead when he realized the situation.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:46   Link #55
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In episode 3, watch from 11:35 to 14:33. I think she came to the realization that it was a mistake to seal her feelings for Shin, and Noe was the catalyst that forced her to reconsider keeping her distance from Shin. It already started in episode 2 when Hiromi had her first flashback and asked herself "What Do I Want To Do?" but she took another step forward with the second flashback in episode 3. Also watch from 15:40 in episode 3 to see how cheerfully she greets him the following morning.

I think that from Hiromi's perspective she had enough doubt about what Shin's mother said to allow her to make attempts to get closer to Shinichiro. Her doubt shows that what Shin's mother said was not definitive and we could already see in episode 2 that Hiromi was thinking to herself "What do I want to do?". The possibility of being Shin's sister was enough to make Hiromi distance herself from Shinichiro for the past year until Noe's presence in Shin's life prompted Hiromi to reconsider her decision to seal her feelings for Shin. By not continuing to distance herself and in fact attempting to get closer to Shin we can tell that Hiromi has some hope that she is not Shin's sister. Enough hope that she was not willing to stay away and watch as someone took Shin away from her. What Shin's mother said though is still enough to keep Hiromi in that half-way state that prevents her from revealing her feelings to Shin and that 3-way encounter between Hiromi, Shin's mother, and Shin in episode 6 brought further development of their relationship to a standstill.

As for Jun touching her lips, she probably has'nt been close to a boy since she was little, probably with Shinichiro. Her reaction was normal for a shy and inexperienced girl who suddenly had intimate contact forced on her. If it was'nt for Hiromi's moment of weakness(shock actually) after hearing Jun say that Shin and Noe were going to date she probably would'nt have allowed him to get that close and do that much. It does'nt say much about Jun or any possible relationship between them if he has to rely on moments of vulnerability from Hiromi to make progress with her. Why did he have a smirk after realizing by the shock on Hiromi's face that she liked Shin? If he had good intentions I would have expected a sympathetic and caring expression instead when he realized the situation.
I agree with you analysis of Hiromi and her feelings. I am amazed that anyone can believe that she really has feelings for Jun. After looking at her depressed face while riding behind Jun from the preview pictures, I doubt anybody can still think she feels anything for Jun.
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Old 2008-02-20, 15:06   Link #56
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I'd like to add that I am hopeful for Jun, too. He's a dangerous guy, but his caring for Noe makes me think he has a good heart, after all.
I think I'm with the majority when thinking that he is using Noe as a stepping stone in finding happiness for Noe. As long as Shin keeps his end of the bargin, he will be willing to do anything because he "loves" Noe. This doesn't mean he is a bad guy at all, but it does make me think why he is going to the extent that he is. Here comes my old theory that Jun may feel that he is falling for Noe instead...

Double incest alert?

But seriously, Hiromi does not love Jun the way she does shin. Tha confession to her friend was a pure lie. And any feelings she has are feelings for embarrassment rather than like imo.
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Old 2008-02-20, 15:11   Link #57
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Why did he have a smirk after realizing by the shock on Hiromi's face that she liked Shin? If he had good intentions I would have expected a sympathetic and caring expression instead when he realized the situation.
If you look at the way he handles Shin to fulfill his part of the deal, he definitely seems the type to use this as blackmail material if he ever needs Hiromi to do anything. At this point, there is good reason to believe that Jun knows the secrets of both Hiromi and Shin in terms of who they are actually interested in, IIRC (it's been a while since I watched the raws). With the events that concluded ep 7, I'd say it's pretty likely that TT will end with Hiromi/Shin. This is definitely not for sure, but their strange situation with family and housing seems to be the central focus. Also, the other girls made their move too early for it to end well. There is just under half of the show left, and both Ai and Noe have made their feelings clear.

All considered, Jun is the closest thing that TT has to a villain. Though I'm interested in exactly what he cannot love any longer.
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Old 2008-02-20, 15:11   Link #58
Kaoru Chujo
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In episode 3, watch from 11:35 to 14:33. I think she came to the realization that it was a mistake to seal her feelings for Shin....
As for Jun touching her lips, she probably hasn't been close to a boy since she was little, probably with Shinichiro. Her reaction was normal for a shy and inexperienced girl who suddenly had intimate contact forced on her....
Why did he have a smirk after realizing by the shock on Hiromi's face that she liked Shin? If he had good intentions I would have expected a sympathetic and caring expression instead when he realized the situation.
1. And yet it was shortly after their pleasant walk with the sake that she told her friend about #4, and then went on to tell Shin in detail about how she came to like #4.

In any case, thanks for pointing out that her thawing started before the talk of #4, closer to when she knew he was with Noe. Was the first time she spoke directly to him when she warned him off Noe at his locker? The angel is starting the process of taking away her tears.

I keep wondering if she doesn't feel strong sisterly feelings toward Shin, rather than romantic ones. Perhaps she had to hold those sisterly feelings in check in case he misinterpreted them.

2. Certainly her reaction to the touch was partly the shock of innocence, but she was still moved. And certainly Jun is in a way taking advantage there, maybe even to forestall her getting with Shin, but I was just seeing it symbolically, since the action was so similar to his action when putting on Noe's helmet. I put it together with the slight thaw I thought I saw in his feelings after she talked about snow when he was asking her out.

3. Sure, Jun is manipulative. He is a bit of an adult. With his father dead and his mother away somewhere working, he basically has responsibility for his sister, and uses his perceptiveness to manipulate her environment for her. The smirk still didn't make me, at least, think of him as a bad guy. Just capable and dangerous. And deeply sad. The smirk might have been the bitter humor of the human condition, as opposed to a simple feeling of superiority. Perhaps the fact that he is so much hotter than any of the other guys -- like in another league -- makes me give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sometimes I think I'm just being contrarian here, in order that we don't all think the same thing. Or maybe I'm trying to avoid a Canvas2 fiasco, making sure we see hints on all sides, in case things take a sudden turn of some kind at the end, lol.

EDIT: Tripperzahn, isn't Noe the likely candidate for the thing he can't love?
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Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | autumn 2014 previews | autumn 2014 schedule
characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Amagi Brilliant Park | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete

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Old 2008-02-20, 16:05   Link #59
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1. And yet it was shortly after their pleasant walk with the sake that she told her friend about #4, and then went on to tell Shin in detail about how she came to like him.


I keep wondering if she doesn't feel strong sisterly feelings toward Shin, rather than romantic ones. Perhaps she had to hold those sisterly feelings in check in case he misinterpreted them.
She saw Shin walk into the gym carrying Noe on his back and that probably made her jealous to some extent. Tomoyo had repeatedly asked her since episode 2 about Shinichiro and was on her case again after they saw him carrying Noe. She told Tomoyo the lie about #4 to get her to stop but Hiromi was shocked to find out that Shin had heard. The "possibility" of being siblings prevented her from taking those words back. Instead of withdrawing from Shinichiro because she did'nt want to do that anymore, she decides to cover up for herself by talking about #4. It was Shin who withdrew from her in episode 4 even though she continued to greet him first, although it pained her to see him avoid her like she used to do with him.

After the thaw created by the bathroom "toothpaste" incident at the end of episode 4, we see her take the initiative in the next episode by suggesting they go to the beach where she puts her scarf on him. Things take a turn for the worse in her bedroom when he tells her that he had talked to Jun. She seems very disappointed and she actually thought out loud "About today" at 18:43 of episode 5 right before he told her the visit was about Jun. From that thought "About today" you could tell why she was disappointed when Shin instead mentioned Jun. She was hoping that Shin was talking to her now because of their visit to the beach earlier in the day.

If you think that her feelings are sisterly rather romantic then you definitely have a unique way of looking at things Romantic feelings make more sense than sisterly feelings in why she decided to get closer to Shin after seeing Noe get too close to him.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-20 at 16:16.
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Old 2008-02-20, 16:25   Link #60
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
1. And yet it was shortly after their pleasant walk with the sake that she told her friend about #4, and then went on to tell Shin in detail about how she came to like #4.

In any case, thanks for pointing out that her thawing started before the talk of #4, closer to when she knew he was with Noe. Was the first time she spoke directly to him when she warned him off Noe at his locker? The angel is starting the process of taking away her tears.

I keep wondering if she doesn't feel strong sisterly feelings toward Shin, rather than romantic ones. Perhaps she had to hold those sisterly feelings in check in case he misinterpreted them.

2. Certainly her reaction to the touch was partly the shock of innocence, but she was still moved. And certainly Jun is in a way taking advantage there, maybe even to forestall her getting with Shin, but I was just seeing it symbolically, since the action was so similar to his action when putting on Noe's helmet. I put it together with the slight thaw I thought I saw in his feelings after she talked about snow when he was asking her out.

3. Sure, Jun is manipulative. He is a bit of an adult. With his father dead and his mother away somewhere working, he basically has responsibility for his sister, and uses his perceptiveness to manipulate her environment for her. The smirk still didn't make me, at least, think of him as a bad guy. Just capable and dangerous. And deeply sad. The smirk might have been the bitter humor of the human condition, as opposed to a simple feeling of superiority. Perhaps the fact that he is so much hotter than any of the other guys -- like in another league -- makes me give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sometimes I think I'm just being contrarian here, in order that we don't all think the same thing. Or maybe I'm trying to avoid a Canvas2 fiasco, making sure we see hints on all sides, in case things take a sudden turn of some kind at the end, lol.

EDIT: Tripperzahn, isn't Noe the likely candidate for the thing he can't love?
Ok only one thing, You don't call the guy that you have a crush on like "#4", if she was really interested on him she would have learn his name. She just picked the first guy she remembered and it happened to be a guy that was good at basketball and she knew him by #4. good enough! I really don't get why the insistance about Hiromi liking Jun. It is obvious it was a lie to get her friend off her back, she got caught by Shin, so she elaborated on her lie. She also made sure she picked a guy from another school to avoid any intereferance or rumours to leak in the school, but the Irony of it that Noe happened to be his sister.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
After the thaw created by the bathroom "toothpaste" incident at the end of episode 4, we see her take the initiative in the next episode by suggesting they go to the beach where she puts her scarf on him. Things take a turn for the worse in her bedroom when he tells her that he had talked to Jun. She seems very disappointed and she actually thought out loud "About today" at 18:43 of episode 5 right before he told her the visit was about Jun. From that thought "About today" you could tell why she was disappointed when Shin instead mentioned Jun. She was hoping that Shin was talking to her now because of their visit to the beach earlier in the day.

If you think that her feelings are sisterly rather romantic then you definitely have a unique way of looking at things Romantic feelings make more sense than sisterly feelings in why she decided to get closer to Shin after seeing Noe get too close to him.
Very well done Cloudninja, there is a reason that the writers bothered with showing us the same scene from both point of views. They really wanted to hammer into the viewers how both of them felt during the bethroom scene.
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