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Old 2008-02-22, 04:17   Link #41
cloudninja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Good point. Highly possible. Although I do think he is already flying. That's what Noe said when he gave her the tissue-box chicken, I believe. And things like his speaking up to his mother and asking Noe to keep away both showed him having a little more independence. Even confessing to Noe was a big flight, whether it was the deal that caused it or not.

Could you explain why you think it is becoming more likely that the sibling thing isn't true? As far as I can see, it is still just as possible as it always was. The things that make it possible are the fact that the Shinmother was surprised Hiromi didn't remember the conversation; and the fact that Hiromi used words that could be construed as meaning "may be" rather than "is." But Hiromi seems to have believed it enough to (a) steer clear of Shin for the whole year, and (2) tell him about it, even though she likes him. The writers may be leaving us uncertain in order to sustain the doubt and tension that help make this show so fascinating.

I should add that the abortive overtures of Shinfather to Shin and Shinmother to Hiromi do indicate that there is more info of some kind to pass on, maybe that yes, he and Hiromi's mother had an affair, but no, it is not likely that Hiromi is their child. But the info could also just be apologizing for (a) keeping it from Shin and (b) causing Hiromi unnecessary pain. I continue to doubt that Shinmother would have made up something so shameful for the family, and for her.

And I certainly agree that the effect Hiromi has on him is because of how strongly he feels about her. That doesn't change the fact that it is so far making his life worse instead of better. I didn't mean he didn't love her and might not end up with her, just that they were so far not helping each other much.

I think Shin would be well advised to at least take a vow of silence for a while, even if he can't get into a monastery.
She said "You can fly, can't you?" after receiving the tissue-box chicken, not that he was already flying. She had earlier told him that he could'nt fly but then changed her opinion to say that he was capable of flying, not that he was already doing so with such a small gesture. Earlier, she said Raigomaru wanted to fly and that was why she was feeding him "sky food", but she did'nt say Raigomaru was actually flying yet. Shin showed potential for flight which is why she then became interested in him. She has'nt actually said that he is in the act of flying yet at any point of the show. To Noe, the ability to "fly" and reach for the skies is something special and something she is still pushing Shin to achieve as opposed to more mundane actions that many people can also easily achieve. These smaller actions are more like attempts at flight instead of achieving true flight.

It would probably be considered a major event when it happens and it would be very obvious to the viewers, probably closer to the end of the show. I think he will "take flight" once he is clear in his heart and mind about what he wants to do. Whether it's to pursue Hiromi or to give her up with no regrets to continue his relationship with Noe, I think it would take something of that magnitude. The doubt in his mind and heart is keeping him grounded, which is what Noe sensed and she then confronted Hiromi because she could tell that Hiromi is the reason that Shin was not trying to fly and look up to the sky. It sounds like it is at least in part a state of mind and being that Noe is referring because she accuses Hiromi of not being able to fly herself, probably referring to Hiromi's own state of feeling trapped and unable to do what she wants.

Shin's mother was surprised that Hiromi remembered the conversation. That indicates that she did'nt think it would have caused Hiromi enough pain to remember it. If it was true why would'nt Hiromi have felt this hurt and remember it? That to me shows that Shin's mother herself did'nt place that much importance on what she said and that's why she was surprised that Hiromi remembered it. If Shin's mother did feel it was true then she should have expected that Hiromi would remember such an important revelation instead of being surprised and saying "You still remember that conversation?".

Shin's mother did'nt seem shy about harassing Hiromi for the past year over doing errands and household work along with the occasional verbal jab. She seemed content to do that much to take out her hate for Hiromi's mother on Hiromi. I think when Hiromi first moved in that hate was more fresh on her mind and she went too far in trying to hurt her. What she told Hiromi could also be a misdirection by the writers to direct us away from what could be the real reason that she hated Hiromi's mother. Shin's father did'nt necessarily even have had an affair with Hiromi's mother. He could have merely wanted Hiromi's mother over Shin's mother and that could have driven Shin's mother to an extreme if she felt that her husband still had feelings for the other woman long after they were married. It could also be that she was in love with Hiromi's "father" and hated Hiromi's mother so much that she lied to hurt Hiromi as much as possible.

We already know that Shin's mother hated Hiromi's mother and has acted spitefully against Hiromi for the past year. Just how deep does that hatred and vindictiveness go? We don't know yet. So you can't really say that Shin's mother would'nt go so far as to lie about it because that would be a judgment on how much or little she hated Hiromi's mother. We do know it is a deep hatred and if it is deep enough we've all seen people do even worse things than what Hiromi's mother did. Especially if the woman in question is the fiery and emotional type in contrast to her husband.

If what she said was true then it would be out of place for her to be apologetic as she never felt bad about the harassment she had given Hiromi before in order to hurt her as she felt it was deserved. It makes more sense that she finally feels apologetic because it was something awful she said to hurt Hiromi but without substance and therefore undeserved, because she herself did'nt put enough weight on what she said to make her think that Hiromi would remember it. I think Shin's father is aware of his wife's fiery and vindictive nature and asked Shin because he probably knows that she is capable of going too far with her emotions and her resulting actions.

From Hiromi's perspective she had enough doubt about what Shin's mother said to allow her to make attempts to get closer to Shinichiro. Her doubt shows that what Shin's mother said was not definitive and we could already see in episode 2 that Hiromi was thinking to herself "What do I want to do?". The "possibility" of being Shin's sister was enough to make Hiromi distance herself from Shinichiro for the past year until Noe's presence in Shin's life prompted Hiromi to reconsider her decision to seal her feelings for Shin. By not continuing to distance herself and in fact attempting to get closer to Shin we can tell that Hiromi has some hope that she is not Shin's sister. Enough hope that she was not willing to stay away and watch as someone took Shin away from her. What Shin's mother said though is still enough to keep Hiromi in that half-way state that prevents her from revealing her feelings to Shin and that 3-way encounter between Hiromi, Shin's mother, and Shin in episode 6 brought further development of their relationship to a standstill. Hiromi told Shin about it because his mother had caused her to get emotional and the "maybe" part was enough to let her get closer to Shin but not as close as she could if that revelation was'nt there.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 04:39.
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Old 2008-02-22, 04:46   Link #42
Kaoru Chujo
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Lots of good points from Var. One thing, however: the early scene with Noe I was thinking of was when he had a vision of coming down from the tree toward her head, and she looked up at him, then he snapped out of his vision. That vision of her before he had met her is what seemed to me to show a mysterious connection.

In addition, that scene had him coming down to her, rather than the other way around, as in other scenes in ep1, where the angel comes down to help the human. Or to crush him, lol.

Ep1 was a long time ago, but many first eps offer clues and context for the whole show, if we can figure out what they mean.

Good point about him having been somewhat brought back to Earth. I still see his confession as a take-off, but the idea of Noe eventually handing him over to Hiromi as the only one who can make him fly is possible. However, I think that in his dancing in ep7, he may be beginning to fly.

We don't know if Noe's innocent/childish mindset will "fall short" in a dating situation until we see them as a couple. Which we will on Saturday.

I think Ai has always been an onee-san to Shin. That makes her confidante role not that unusual. The idea of converting that kind of role to romance is also in KimiKiss, with Mao, where I anticipate the opposite result to here.

In rewatching episodes, I was moved by how Ai looked at the dance practice, serving tea.

Just a couple of points to cloudninja. Noe said "toberu wa yo!" (You can fly!) That implied to me that he had demonstrated that fact by taking a mini-flight. But I agree that the real flying is to come, when and if he gets a will of his own.

Certainly Shinmother could be so full of hate that she says things that damage herself, such as that her husband had an affair. But my feeling still is that she seems too proud of the family to invent such a thing. We'll see, maybe in ep8. And her surprise that Hiromi remembers certainly baffles me, and could suggest she made it up on the spur of the moment. But I still don't see that the likelihood has changed since the idea was first revealed.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2008-02-22 at 05:00.
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Old 2008-02-22, 06:14   Link #43
cloudninja
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
However, I think that in his dancing in ep7, he may be beginning to fly.
Notice that his thoughts during the dance are "Noe likes me. Hiromi likes Noe's brother. I like Hiromi. But Hiromi and I are...As if we are!

I think he was taking out his frustration by performing the dance with more vigor than usual to let out some stress. Normally he is not into it because he did'nt want to do the dance in the first place. If anything, he is more conflicted than usual during this dance but he used his emotions to fuel his movements. One of the people said "He's finally getting into it" which is not quite true because he was using the dance as an outlet instead of actually being into the dance. It also shows that he is still refusing to believe that Hiromi is his sibling. During this dance, his thoughts were more about Hiromi than anyone else.
Quote:
We don't know if Noe's innocent/childish mindset will "fall short" in a dating situation until we see them as a couple. Which we will on Saturday.
Quite a few people find the innocent/childish mindset cute for a while. The real test is how long they can consider it cute as it is less likely to work in a longer term more serious relationship.
Quote:
Just a couple of points to cloudninja. Noe said "toberu wa yo!" (You can fly!) That implied to me that he had demonstrated that fact by taking a mini-flight. But I agree that the real flying is to come, when and if he gets a will of his own.
Shin showed her that he was capable of flight but what he did was on par with what many others could do. By that definition even Shin and Hiromi probably shared a few moments that qualify as at least a mini-flight, such as what happened at the beach. What Noe really wants is for him to fly high and reach towards the sky which is a much bigger step.
Quote:
Certainly Shinmother could be so full of hate that she says things that damage herself, such as that her husband had an affair. But my feeling still is that she seems too proud of the family to invent such a thing. We'll see, maybe in ep8. And her surprise that Hiromi remembers certainly baffles me, and could suggest she made it up on the spur of the moment. But I still don't see that the likelihood has changed since the idea was first revealed.
Hate can make people do irrational things they wouldn't normally do, even sometimes doing something that they deeply regret later. Hating someone deeply and being rational at the same time is tough to do, as those two qualities don't mix well. Since one of the major themes of her character is her hate for Hiromi's mother it might be giving her too much credit to think that she can remain in control of her emotions all the time. Also, why is she directing the hate towards Hiromi and her mother but we haven't really seen it towards her husband? She does'nt strike me as the forgiving type. Arguments can easily start over much more petty incidents than an affair. I would have expected to have seen obvious hostility between them if it was the case, especially if Hiromi is a daily reminder of such an affair.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 11:37.
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Old 2008-02-22, 07:55   Link #44
golthin
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Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
Notice that his thoughts during the dance are "Noe likes me. Hiromi likes Noe's brother. I like Hiromi. But Hiromi and I are...As if we are!

I think he was taking out his frustration by performing the dance with more vigor than usual to let out some stress. Normally he is not into it because he did'nt want to do the dance in the first place. If anything, he is more conflicted than usual during this dance but he used his emotions to fuel his movements. One of the people said "He's finally getting into it" which is not quite true because he was using the dance as an outlet instead of actually being into the dance. It also shows that he is still refusing to believe that Hiromi is his sibling.

He getting so good at dancing during episode 7 was pretty good. Notice that he doesn't mention anything about Noe during his dancing conflict. She was of not consequence to move his feelings. all was about Hiromi, Jun and himself. It was after Jun showed up that night while he walked back with Aiko that Noe got back in his mind set, because he never thought that Jun actually thought of the deal seriously. It never occured to him that Jun actually went out that Sunday with Hiromi for the deal. He had completely forgotten about it all.

I didn't pay too much attention about the dancing because I knew Shin didn't want to do it, but I kind missed this big hint about Shin's mindset because I myself didn't pay much attention to that (thanks to cloudNinja for bringing it up). The only reason that shin went to see Noe the second time was because he thought her curse might be true and he didn't want to take chances with it being true, so he made the chicken from the tissue box as a gift, so she would remove the curse. Silly, but that tells you how desparate Shin was that he wouldn't even take chances with suspectitions.
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Old 2008-02-22, 13:43   Link #45
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"True Tears", "True flight".... they're supposed to be some sort of metaphor, aren't they? But why are people making such a fuss about them? Heck I don't even know what they really stand for anyway(Flight=spiritual/social progression!?) Did I miss something here
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudninja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
We don't know if Noe's innocent/childish mindset will "fall short" in a dating situation until we see them as a couple. Which we will on Saturday.
Quite a few people find the innocent/childish mindset cute for a while. The real test is how long they can consider it cute as it is less likely to work in a longer term more serious relationship.
Ah, you've just mentioned something I just never seem to get.
OK, for how long has there been the impression that Noe's being eccentric also means she's an immature/superficial person who can't properly handle romantic relationships? I never thought she was childish anyway (OK that was a lie) (unless you insist that singing sth random is childish) , Noe's just being peculiar and unique in her own way the name Haruhi immediately comes to mind. She also knows how to engage in serious talk/logical reasoning as we've seen so far, plus she seems to have a surprisingly good grasp of others' feelings, which is another point for her. I sincerely hope you didn't judge the book by its cover and jump to the conclusion that Hiromi would always be a more serious/compassionate/sophisticated love interest (Well I wouldn't want to be around a liar for whatever the reason, and I haven't seen much evidence for that one too, unless you insist her troubled situation, conflicting thoughts & keeping a distance from Shinichiro are any kind of hints).
I firmly believe Noe's more than just a plain pretty doll. It could be that my real-life relationships have had an effect on me, but hopefully the writer won't let me down. It'll be very disappointing, however, if Noe turns out to be only like what you said.
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Old 2008-02-22, 13:54   Link #46
Var
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Hate can make people do irrational things they wouldn't normally do, even sometimes doing something that they deeply regret later. Hating someone deeply and being rational at the same time is tough to do, as those two qualities don't mix well. Since one of the major themes of her character is her hate for Hiromi's mother it might be giving her too much credit to think that she can remain in control of her emotions all the time. Also, why is she directing the hate towards Hiromi and her mother but we haven't really seen it towards her husband? She does'nt strike me as the forgiving type. Arguments can easily start over much more petty incidents than an affair. I would have expected to have seen obvious hostility between them if it was the case, especially if Hiromi is a daily reminder of such an affair.
I'll agree that she is not forgiving but she seems more like someone who displaces her hatred from one source to another. So instead of hating her husband for an affair, she puts all the blame on Hiromi and her mother.

And while it could have been spur of the moment and caused from hatred, she seems quite adamant about not letting Shin and Hiromi be seen together. She also says it in a way that seems like its not so much about the idea of them dating/some such but more of letting others see them together. Which, I would think, hints at something not right about them being together or seen as an 'item'.
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Old 2008-02-22, 14:31   Link #47
cloudninja
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I'll agree that she is not forgiving but she seems more like someone who displaces her hatred from one source to another. So instead of hating her husband for an affair, she puts all the blame on Hiromi and her mother.
Could be the case. Still suspicious looking though that a spiteful woman like her can forgive her husband enough to let him totally off the hook and lay all the blame on others. Especially with Hiromi sitting with them during breakfast and dinner everyday to remind her.
Quote:
And while it could have been spur of the moment and caused from hatred, she seems quite adamant about not letting Shin and Hiromi be seen together. She also says it in a way that seems like its not so much about the idea of them dating/some such but more of letting others see them together. Which, I would think, hints at something not right about them being together or seen as an 'item'.
She acted in a similar fashion when she saw Hiromi come home with Jun so it's not specific to just Shin. I think she just wanted to make Hiromi feel bad. It's become such a habit that she does it without having to think. She said "You came back with a boy again, did'nt you? There are people watching. You should be more careful."(episode 6 18:33). Sounds similar to what she told Hiromi in episode 5 when she came back from the beach with Shin. I think she is against the appearance of Hiromi being "easy" and giving a bad impression of the household as she also said as opposed to specifically being against having Shin and Hiromi appear together since she had the same issue when Jun brought her back. Or at least that's her excuse for being mean to Hiromi. Although in episode 7 it appears that she did think about her latest incident and her treatment of Hiromi as her tone was different when speaking with her but she was interrupted when Shin came home (episode 7 12:42).

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 14:44.
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Old 2008-02-22, 14:55   Link #48
Kaoru Chujo
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Shin actually did mention Noe in his interior monologue during the dance. But his frustration/confusion over Hiromi was the main reason he was so angry and could get into the true energy of the dance. The stimulus to a better performance was anger and confusion. They revved up his engine and helped him start to fly, it seems to me. If he dances like that at the festival, Noe is going to be head over heels.

"Flight" is a pretty simple metaphor, as far as I can tell. I think it refers to not remaining a docile character like Jibeta, but being someone with will and aspiration and daring. Of course, Jibeta's docility probably diverted attention away from him so the tanuki got the flying Raigomaru instead.

By the way, so far it appears that Noe nailed Hiromi when she said she couldn't fly. But maybe Hiromi could fly if she was released from her prison at Shin's place. The biggest and most dangerous release would be if she really starts to like and follow Jun.

As for the "true tears," I'm still trying to grasp that. There is the story of her grandma taking away her tears so she wouldn't cry, and Noe on a quest to take someone else's tears -- so she can cry herself, I think. I haven't seen Jun cry, either, so I guess he may need some true tears, too. At least we know that just about everyone will be crying by the time this is over -- from despair and/or from joy.

I see Noe's weird/intuitive/wise side as being just as prominent her childish/natural side, but I do see both. In any case, we're not talking about marriage here, just going out. Despite our rationality, I think we are all seeing things through the lens of which girl we most like. I plead guilty, anyway.

As for Shinmother and her feelings/attitude toward her husband, I think she had 15 years to beat him up over the matter and had probably settled into a normal life. Her intense feelings for her son may be a redirection of her original love for her husband, which has settled into a life partnership rather than a romance.

However it all turns out, I'm loving this show. So many possibilities, more with each passing episode, at least up to now.

If anyone here hasn't seen the same director's Simoun, I highly recommend it for just this sort of complexity and emotion, as well as great music and beautiful animation (of a different style). Although the setting and situations are quite different, and may put some people off, they also involve painful romances (mostly yuri).
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Old 2008-02-22, 16:58   Link #49
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Ep1 was a long time ago, but many first eps offer clues and context for the whole show, if we can figure out what they mean.
I already explored this myself and that is why I have my view on how the show will progress. I think the key is the first two picture book scenes as they are about Hiromi and Noe respectively. As we watch the show we actually see the themes of these two scenes repeat over and over. The first picture book scene with Hiromi represents his motivation and desire that drives Shin throughout the series. The second picture book scene represents the means by which he attains what he wants and the journey he must go on, as well as what Noe's motivation is. Meeting Noe is what causes the chain of events to unfold and I think everything comes back to the themes held by these two scenes again in the end.

Spoiler for contains mention of events up to episode 7 to support theory. I only use events that have happened so far, no outside sources, basically what anyone can see by watching the first 7 episodes. Spoiler tag for the benefit of those who aren't up to date with episodes or don't want to read my theory:
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Old 2008-02-22, 17:39   Link #50
Kaoru Chujo
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To give credit where credit is due, cloudninja, when I posted about ep1 I was thinking of your previous post on the relationship between it and the rest of the show. Excellent summary of a logical theory. I'm still looking for alternatives, but this is a great basis to go on.

I do think that Noe now being in love with Shin complicates her simple mission of selflessly helping him fly. But she is certainly more like the figure of an elf or an angel than like a normal girlfriend. Maybe that's why I prefer her. One problem with the scheme is that grandma said you can only take tears from someone very dear to you, and Hiromi does not qualify for Noe.

And there's a question in my mind when Shin says "That's going too far," (doko made katte no koto.... "How far are you going to go with your selfishness/unilateral decisions?") whether he is thinking of Jun depriving Hiromi or just of the mechanical "deal" that he doesn't like in the first place.

I like your point about wrong reasons being a theme. Not that I actually agree with it in real life, since things keep changing inside us as life goes on.

Another theme I have thought about is indeed the danger of the normal white lie. Don't agree with that IRL, either, except when things go too far, as they are going here. This kind of cautious social deception seems even more common in the Far East than in Europe, Britain, or America, so it makes sense to me for the authors to make it a theme.
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Old 2008-02-22, 17:51   Link #51
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One problem with the scheme is that grandma said you can only take tears from someone very dear to you, and Hiromi does not qualify for Noe.
Spoiler for above:

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 18:08.
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Old 2008-02-22, 19:11   Link #52
Var
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Could be the case. Still suspicious looking though that a spiteful woman like her can forgive her husband enough to let him totally off the hook and lay all the blame on others. Especially with Hiromi sitting with them during breakfast and dinner everyday to remind her.
You're overlooking just how cold/lonely their meals are together. Everytime I see the family eating together, I can't help but think there's alot of tension, for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
Spoiler for above:
I'd have quoted the longer post but this suffices. It was a good post and alot of the points you made were excellent, but, and this is simply what I gathered from it, you are looking at it on only two fronts. Hiromi and Noe. The show, however, is no longer two fronts. It's now three.

If it wasn't for Aiko, I'd have probably agreed completely with what you said, but now I am not so sure that things will develop so simply. Just like a math problem, two dimensions is simple, throw in that third and shit hits the fan.
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Old 2008-02-22, 19:31   Link #53
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I wish I could offer an alternative theory for you, Kaoru Chujo, but I'm afraid that I (for the most part) concur with cloudninja here. The first episode, and the events that follow, do lay out the theme pretty clearly and unambiguously. The show has a lot of plot twists, but the theme has remained constant. So that's why I've been a bit surprised to see (in general) people's opinions of the show and where its going change so dramatically with every episode. This is the sort of tunnel vision that it seems easier to fall victim to when you watch the episodes week-by-week; you sometimes tend to get carried away by the latest twist, and lose sight of the "big picture" and how things connect to each other.

(I find the people who post "odds" after each episode particularly humourous, especially since the odds change so dramatically from week-to-week. The "odds" in anime aren't determined by the week-to-week, they're (almost universally) decided in the first episode. There's only one quasi-exception I can think of, and it is not Canvas 2 (follow the theme/message, not the twists). In this show, I would definitely argue that nothing that's happened so far has changed the odds one bit.)

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Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
Spoiler for contains mention of events up to episode 7 to support theory. I only use events that have happened so far, no outside sources, basically what anyone can see by watching the first 7 episodes. Spoiler tag for the benefit of those who aren't up to date with episodes or don't want to read my theory:
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
Spoiler for above:
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
If it wasn't for Aiko, I'd have probably agreed completely with what you said, but now I am not so sure that things will develop so simply. Just like a math problem, two dimensions is simple, throw in that third and shit hits the fan.
My personal feeling is that that's being a bit too easily swayed by plot twists. Aiko is a perfect illustration of the theme and a very obvious lesson for Shinichirou (don't go out with someone you don't love just because you think it's what the person you do love wants). So I think this will trouble him, but ultimately I assume it'll part of what pushes him to "do the right thing" with Noe. So I think it's an essential plot development, but I see it as reinforcing the theme/message rather than swaying it in any particular direction. Of course, as with all speculation and theories, we can only wait and see to be sure!
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Old 2008-02-22, 20:16   Link #54
Kaoru Chujo
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I'm probably an intellectual convert, but I still prefer the angel, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Once all the truth's finally out, then they can all finally mourn properly (cry their "true tears") and be freed from that bondage.
Nicely put.

For an East Asian society, the theme of "the trouble with lies" is a very important one. Some societies may be too up-front and cause conflict by their brutal honesty. Not Japan or China.

And I'm still hoping for depth in Jun that makes him not the cardboard villain he has been portrayed as. And six episodes is still a long time....

Wonderful show. I have some confidence they will be able to maintain the emotional depth without getting too doramatic. But endings are the hardest part. By the way, I'm loving this thread, people.
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Old 2008-02-22, 20:49   Link #55
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
And I'm still hoping for depth in Jun that makes him not the cardboard villain he has been portrayed as. And six episodes is still a long time....
Hmm... this is probably re-treading old ground, but I suppose the most common theory about Jun is that he's trying to match Noe with Shinichirou because he's secretly in love with her even though she's his sister (or perhaps quote-unquote "sister", to be revealed). This would be an interesting parallel for both the "lack of truth in relationships" issue (sort of the converse of Shinichirou/Aiko, pushing a relationship to run away from one's own feelings, which is oddly similar to the situation that he's actually forcing Shinichirou and Noe in right now), and also for the "sibling romance" angle that Hiromi and Shinichirou are angsting about.

Basically, all the relationships in this show are triangles that converge and overlap in various ways:
  • Shinichirou's Mom, Shinchirou's Dad, Hiromi's mom
  • Miyokichi, Aiko, Shinichirou
  • Jun, Hiromi, Shinichirou
  • Noe, Shinichirou, Hiromi
  • Hiromi, Jun, Noe (speculation)
If it's not that, though, I might accept the theory that he's just trying to be a "good brother" and look out for his sister, who he sees in pain but can't do anything to help. We really haven't gotten enough insight into Jun's inner thoughts to tell conclusively -- at least as far as I remember.

But yes... I doubt he's going to end up as a "cardboard villain". I imagine they'll clarify his motivations as this charade with Hiromi goes on.
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Old 2008-02-22, 21:02   Link #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
I'd have quoted the longer post but this suffices. It was a good post and alot of the points you made were excellent, but, and this is simply what I gathered from it, you are looking at it on only two fronts. Hiromi and Noe. The show, however, is no longer two fronts. It's now three.

If it wasn't for Aiko, I'd have probably agreed completely with what you said, but now I am not so sure that things will develop so simply. Just like a math problem, two dimensions is simple, throw in that third and shit hits the fan.
I had a few reasons for not talking about Aiko. One is that if you look at the episode titles for the first 8 episodes (episode 8 title was revealed in episode 7 preview clip), Aiko has only 1 episode title dedicated to her while Noe and Hiromi have 3 each. It's a sign to me that Aiko is considered the marginal major character by the writers and I'm not optimistic about expecting an Aiko-centric episode title anytime soon. Definitely more important than the minor characters but she's not being considered in the same league as Noe and Hiromi in Shin's love life.

Also, she only interacts directly with Shin but not with Noe or Hiromi and to me that's another point of separation compared to the other two girls as she is unlikely to get into "fights" over Shin (catfights get points from me ). It would'nt surprise me to see another one as jealousy flares up. Shin only sees her when he goes to her shop or for dance practice which is'nt everyday and I expect the situation to be awkward enough that he'll probably avoid her for a while. Shin sees the other girls everyday(Hiromi) or almost everyday (Noe).

Finally, I think her situation with Shin will be resolved relatively soon as the odds of her being in the endgame will be very low because of the importance of Noe and Hiromi to the story as shown in the first episode. I don't think Aiko will want to prolong this awkward situation and my guess is she will give up within 2-3 episodes if she sees little chance of progress with Shin. Her kiss/confession was cathartic but it won't take long before she realizes what her chances are. She would rather try to get back to being his friend than not be a significant part of his life. She may even counsel Shin on following his heart.

Does she have a chance? I guess she has an outside shot, but I'm not going to worry about longshots. It happens sometimes but not often enough that I'm going to lose any sleep over it.

I actually see a much better chance that after giving up on Shin she can have a fresh new start with Miyokichi. I think Miyokichi will be there for her unconditionally even if she does'nt return his feelings at first. If Aiko cries over Shin it'll probably be Miyokichi who will be there for her instead of Shin since Shin has his hands full with the other girls. I don't think Miyokichi would take advantage of her and he would give her as much time as she needs before moving on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for above:


I'm not expecting my predictions to be right on the money but the general theme and tone was set in the beginning so I would be happy to be mostly correct.

The major themes might be predictable but the show does an amazing job of execution all around so far. A true gem if the show maintains its quality to the end.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 21:16.
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Old 2008-02-22, 21:06   Link #57
Kaoru Chujo
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One statement that makes me think he is not her biological brother is when Shin said he looked like her and he said "not at all."

The chin-strap scene hinted at something, all right. Symbolically, so did Noe's pantsu and embracing him in the first scene at home. Maybe he refuses to take advantage of her, even without the biological bar. And maybe the hints are misleading in some way.

"It's okay to change. In fact, you can't not change." Even though he's probably at most two years older than she is, he is like her guardian, her substitute parent, since her father is dead and her mother is off working somewhere. Complex.

As for Ai and Nobuse (I'm using given names for everyone), them getting back together seems too neat and obvious to me, at this point. I guess that befits secondary characters, but in prospect, it seems a bit lame. Maybe my feeling there is because I find him too silly. Here's hoping that his recent disaster continues to deepen his seriousness, to go with the "nice guy" aspect that he's had all along and that became even stronger in the classroom there with Shin in ep7.

But I agree with cloudninja in not expecting Noe's situation with Shin to be prolonged. I am happy to be surprised, however, as long as the emotions make sense.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2008-02-22 at 21:38.
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Old 2008-02-22, 21:56   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
As for Ai and Nobuse (I'm using given names for everyone), them getting back together seems too neat and obvious to me, at this point. I guess that befits secondary characters, but in prospect, it seems a bit lame. Maybe my feeling there is because I find him too silly. Here's hoping that his recent disaster continues to deepen his seriousness, to go with the "nice guy" aspect that he's had all along and that became even stronger in the classroom there with Shin in ep7.
Yeah, I know what you mean... No matter what, it'd be pretty hard to escape the "consolation prize" sense. If he's really there for her, I could see her giving him a chance at least to start over as friends. If they left it sort of open-ended (with a tiny hint), it might work. I guess the problem is really what to do with Miyokichi and Aiko from here on out if they're not moving them towards a potential "reconciliation". When (if -- I should say if...) Shinichirou turns Aiko down, there are only so many ways they can go with that. I don't think they're going to let the issue die, because although it may be a secondary issue, it's still one featured prominently in the story. Miyokichi has been so solely devoted to Aiko, that they haven't really left any other back doors for him. So, anyway, I guess it's hard to say for sure what they might do. I think what cloudninja proposed seems reasonable, but I agree that it has a strong potential of seeming "lame" if not done right (maybe it's more like "artificially happy").
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Old 2008-02-22, 22:15   Link #59
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudninja View Post
I had a few reasons for not talking about Aiko. One is that if you look at the episode titles for the first 8 episodes (episode 8 title was revealed in episode 7 preview clip), Aiko has only 1 episode title dedicated to her while Noe and Hiromi have 3 each. It's a sign to me that Aiko is considered the marginal major character by the writers and I'm not optimistic about expecting an Aiko-centric episode title anytime soon. Definitely more important than the minor characters but she's not being considered in the same league as Noe and Hiromi in Shin's love life.
While your point is solid, I can't help but counter it by saying that Ai's story hadn't really started until episode 7. While the other two named have been on the forefront since the begining. And I would agree prior to the last two episodes, she was a third wheel but with her ability to break free from Nobuse and openly state her feelings, made her a primary character.

As for her standing in Shin's love, that too is much like her role in the story. He never looked at her romanticallu nor knew of her romantic feelings. This, however, is not bound to change whether he likes it or not. So while it is true that she is not in Shin's love that has been portrayed prior to Ep.8, like the other two, she may or may not make her way into it now. I find it interesting that she had been a third wheel for both Shin and the story (to the viewers) but now she will be seen in a different light by both Shin and the viewers. Which I find interesting in how it came about, especially with the significance of her last words in 7 that tie right into this. It could, of course, all be there for other reasons...

Quote:
Also, she only interacts directly with Shin but not with Noe or Hiromi and to me that's another point of separation compared to the other two girls as she is unlikely to get into "fights" over Shin (catfights get points from me ). It would'nt surprise me to see another one as jealousy flares up. Shin only sees her when he goes to her shop or for dance practice which is'nt everyday and I expect the situation to be awkward enough that he'll probably avoid her for a while. Shin sees the other girls everyday(Hiromi) or almost everyday (Noe).
While she has no direct interaction with the other female characters, she has interacted with them in a second hand way, e.g. when she gives Shin advice on what to do or what things mean. She is also not portrayed as a character who would 'fight' over someone, at least not directly. As everything prior to Ep.8 has shown she is passive and someone who waits. We really don't know how often Shin sees Ai, but it is notably less than Hiromi and Noe due to simple geography of where everyone is. At the same time, however, she has also managed to have a bit of time with Shin alone (the mall scene and I suppose the kiss as well).

Golthin made a point before that if Shin does start to avoid Ai, he will come to notice just how much she supported him through his tribulation of emotions. Which can be a significant boon to her character and chances, and would be something that no one else has (we already know of this fact, but Shin does not/has not realized it).

Quote:
Finally, I think her situation with Shin will be resolved relatively soon as the odds of her being in the endgame will be very low because of the importance of Noe and Hiromi to the story as shown in the first episode. I don't think Aiko will want to prolong this awkward situation and my guess is she will give up within 2-3 episodes if she sees little chance of progress with Shin. Her kiss/confession was cathartic but it won't take long before she realizes what her chances are. She would rather try to get back to being his friend than not be a significant part of his life. She may even counsel Shin on following his heart.
I'm going to take what you said about her not getting much attention/episodes of her own and turn it around. To truly resolve their 'relationship' they would need to devote an episode to do it justice, this however is not happening in 8 as it seems more Hiromi based. If they are going to break this possible relationship they'll need to do it relatively soon, especially if they want to do anything with Nobuse.

I also have to partially disagree or more, change how you worded something. I think that Ai already knows what her chances are and that is why she acted. In seven she saw that the one oppurtunity she had so long waited for disappeared in a flash, forcing her to take a new approach. (This is really one reason I like her, she changes in a very interesting/realistic way unlike the other characters. She is more dynamic I suppose.) I do not see her simply resigning to be just a friend. Bottled up love, just like rage, does not simply poof into thin air. Especially seeing as how far she has gone in one episode (7).

Quote:
Does she have a chance? I guess she has an outside shot, but I'm not going to worry about longshots. It happens sometimes but not often enough that I'm going to lose any sleep over it.
I agree that her chances are small but that is no reason to count her out nor her effects on the story (or to assume they will be short). She has been the main character of nearly every single cliff hanger and quite a few plot twists. I don't see that part of her role changing be it for her benefit or against it.

Quote:
I actually see a much better chance that after giving up on Shin she can have a fresh new start with Miyokichi. I think Miyokichi will be there for her unconditionally even if she does'nt return his feelings at first. If Aiko cries over Shin it'll probably be Miyokichi who will be there for her instead of Shin since Shin has his hands full with the other girls. I don't think Miyokichi would take advantage of her and he would give her as much time as she needs before moving on.
Neither of them deserve the other, to be honest. They are different spectrums and I really cannot see Ai going to Nobuse if she is heart broken by Shin (not other than a secondary prize). She spent quite a bit of time with him and has no developed any feelings for him (We see this through her facial expressions, she honestly seems bother/annoyed more than charmed by Nobuse's antics).

Phew, lot of typing.

EDIT:

I'd say that Nobuse's relationship (a serious one) with Aiko is done, unless they pull off some miracle but I don't see the time to make it anything more than 'you win because you came in second'. This may actually help Nobuse open his eyes, this show has gone on the point that obsession/inertia is not a good thing. Nobuse is inert and obsessive, he's not very different from Noe but on the opposite spectrum.
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Old 2008-02-23, 01:22   Link #60
greyhawk
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I agree with you as there's hardly any way they can pull it off without making it look manipulative. Ai being in her situation right now is all because she was foolish enough to agree to go out with Nobuse in the first place. Very manly though he may have handled it, he should stop building up false hope and accept the harsh cold truth that he and Ai together just don't click and don't work, unless they insist on lying to each other, and by doing so, lying to themselves. Nobuse is a strong person so he'll learn to forget about her in time, and then be able to move on. Though I'd love the writer to prove me wrong and let them end up together , especially after seeing he say "You're the only one for me" so earnestly (that were I Aiko, I'd feel so guilty)
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Hmm... this is probably re-treading old ground, but I suppose the most common theory about Jun is that he's trying to match Noe with Shinichirou because he's secretly in love with her even though she's his sister (or perhaps quote-unquote "sister", to be revealed). This would be an interesting parallel for both the "lack of truth in relationships" issue (sort of the converse of Shinichirou/Aiko, pushing a relationship to run away from one's own feelings, which is oddly similar to the situation that he's actually forcing Shinichirou and Noe in right now), and also for the "sibling romance" angle that Hiromi and Shinichirou are angsting about.
Spoiler for It could be that Jun is actually a:

Sweet, now we have double incest Just kidding.
Much as I hope for Jun and Hiromi's relationship to work out, I want Jun to maintain his image as a composed and mysterious number 4 rather than some interior monologues just to satisfy some viewers' curiosity
BTW, I'm having considerable difficulty fully understanding the concept of "A takes B's tears away, B takes C's tears away, A helps B take C's tears away, A gains her own tears and becomes able to cry..." Why? Because of an idea that abstract & metaphorical being used in way that's really, really, not meaningful at all. Or perhaps it's just me being silly.
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