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Old 2008-02-23, 15:47   Link #61
cloudninja
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
While your point is solid, I can't help but counter it by saying that Ai's story hadn't really started until episode 7. While the other two named have been on the forefront since the begining. And I would agree prior to the last two episodes, she was a third wheel but with her ability to break free from Nobuse and openly state her feelings, made her a primary character.

As for her standing in Shin's love, that too is much like her role in the story. He never looked at her romanticallu nor knew of her romantic feelings. This, however, is not bound to change whether he likes it or not. So while it is true that she is not in Shin's love that has been portrayed prior to Ep.8, like the other two, she may or may not make her way into it now. I find it interesting that she had been a third wheel for both Shin and the story (to the viewers) but now she will be seen in a different light by both Shin and the viewers. Which I find interesting in how it came about, especially with the significance of her last words in 7 that tie right into this. It could, of course, all be there for other reasons...

Golthin made a point before that if Shin does start to avoid Ai, he will come to notice just how much she supported him through his tribulation of emotions. Which can be a significant boon to her character and chances, and would be something that no one else has (we already know of this fact, but Shin does not/has not realized it

I'm going to take what you said about her not getting much attention/episodes of her own and turn it around. To truly resolve their 'relationship' they would need to devote an episode to do it justice, this however is not happening in 8 as it seems more Hiromi based. If they are going to break this possible relationship they'll need to do it relatively soon, especially if they want to do anything with Nobuse.

I also have to partially disagree or more, change how you worded something. I think that Ai already knows what her chances are and that is why she acted. In seven she saw that the one oppurtunity she had so long waited for disappeared in a flash, forcing her to take a new approach. (This is really one reason I like her, she changes in a very interesting/realistic way unlike the other characters. She is more dynamic I suppose.) I do not see her simply resigning to be just a friend. Bottled up love, just like rage, does not simply poof into thin air. Especially seeing as how far she has gone in one episode (7).
From what I have seen and identified, Aiko falls into the supporting major character category. In shows of this genre you see one or more girls that fall into that category in almost every series. They do add to the overall story and add an extra dimension to it but they usually have a lot going against them and/or too much in favor of one or more other girls. Of course the writers don't want to write off such a character too soon so they keep hope alive up to a certain point before having to focus on the main theme. Good writing keeps things interesting and that's what we're seeing with Aiko's struggle to get into the mix with the other girls.

The writers have used the 'destiny' card in this show and from past viewing history I think when a show uses it, it almost always trumps anything that gets in the way. Especially since the main theme keeps getting reinforced and repeated on a regular basis. I guess you could see this as Aiko's 'struggle against destiny'. Could be an interesting little theme of its own if you want to look at it that way I think Aiko may even have a sense of this since she has known for some time that Shin has liked Hiromi for probably a number of years.

What Aiko did was a bold but desperate act. While it served as a good cliffhanger and raised expectations, I don't think it will accomplish what Aiko wanted or change anything long term. We'll have to wait and see. She has her own little story arc with Shin that's separate from the main one of Shin-Noe-Hiromi.

They will need to resolve this but I don't see her getting that much additional screen time at the expense of the other girls when they have important developments coming. I would think that her potential for cliffhangers has dropped now that both Shin and Nobuse know her feelings but the writers may surprise me.

Plot twists, interesting developments and drama all serve to entertain and draw us into the show. If a viewer watches without looking at the overall direction or theme of the show then it's easy to get pulled in different directions by the actions of the characters. It's why a lot of viewers change their opinions of the characters on a weekly basis and suddenly think one girl's chances rose or dropped based on what she or someone else did in that episode, or think one girl's chances has plummeted because of a plot device (hint: Shin's mother).

If I missed out on this show until after all the episodes aired I would just watch and get tugged in all sorts of directions while watching it. Since I'm watching it week by week I can't help but try to decipher what will go on by analyzing clues. I'm impatient that way about a good show that really catches my interest.

Quote:
While she has no direct interaction with the other female characters, she has interacted with them in a second hand way, e.g. when she gives Shin advice on what to do or what things mean. She is also not portrayed as a character who would 'fight' over someone, at least not directly. As everything prior to Ep.8 has shown she is passive and someone who waits. We really don't know how often Shin sees Ai, but it is notably less than Hiromi and Noe due to simple geography of where everyone is. At the same time, however, she has also managed to have a bit of time with Shin alone (the mall scene and I suppose the kiss as well).
That passive, waiting nature has hurt her chances greatly. First she accepted Nobuse's confession and started dating him, instantly creating a big barrier in Shin's mind against thinking about her romantically. She also waited too long. She should have made her move before Shin met Noe. Shin is now traveling down the path set forth by the main theme. The times that she was alone with Shin was in the context of being a friend. With the kiss and confession, Shin won't feel comfortable around her until they get past this.
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I agree that her chances are small but that is no reason to count her out nor her effects on the story (or to assume they will be short). She has been the main character of nearly every single cliff hanger and quite a few plot twists. I don't see that part of her role changing be it for her benefit or against it.
I'm not totally counting her out, it's just the odds are very much against her. As for her effect on the story, she will probably only have a limited effect on the other character arcs. She might influence Shin a little about Noe and Hiromi but probably not to a large extent. Her main contribution to the story is from the Shin-Aiko-Nobuse side of things. I actually think that her potential for cliffhangers has dropped now that both Shin and Nobuse know her feelings although the writers may have a surprise or two left for us. I think her situation built up to the cliffhanger in episode 7 but that may have been the high point. We'll have to wait and see how the writers handle this.

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Neither of them deserve the other, to be honest. They are different spectrums and I really cannot see Ai going to Nobuse if she is heart broken by Shin (not other than a secondary prize). She spent quite a bit of time with him and has no developed any feelings for him (We see this through her facial expressions, she honestly seems bother/annoyed more than charmed by Nobuse's antics).

I'd say that Nobuse's relationship (a serious one) with Aiko is done, unless they pull off some miracle but I don't see the time to make it anything more than 'you win because you came in second'. This may actually help Nobuse open his eyes, this show has gone on the point that obsession/inertia is not a good thing. Nobuse is inert and obsessive, he's not very different from Noe but on the opposite spectrum.
She may not actually get back together with Nobuse by the end of the show but I have a feeling that they might at least hint at it happening sometime afterwards. They might even show them taking a little step or two towards that outcome. Aiko will have to move on at some point and I think Nobuse could show some more personal development to make the idea more palatable to the viewers.
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Old 2008-02-23, 20:56   Link #62
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Spoiler for Ep 8 #1:


Spoiler for Ep 8 #2:


Compare!
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Old 2008-02-23, 21:01   Link #63
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Originally Posted by apropervillain View Post
Compare!
But what's your alternate theory, then? Who else would Hiromi undress herself for at this point in the story and why? And with that look on her face? It's nice to say that doesn't look like his shirt, but if not, then what is it? The shirt wars continue...
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Old 2008-02-23, 21:02   Link #64
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Originally Posted by apropervillain View Post
Spoiler for Ep 8 #1:


Spoiler for Ep 8 #2:


Compare!
Well, his shirt always had some element of purple in it before despite whatever lighting level (high, low) there was.

That red shirt on the bottom pic has no hint of purple. In fact it's a lighter than average shade of red. Plus no seam lines and it's looser-fitting.

Was'nt that first pic when Jun was thinking about his sister Noe after Hiromi called him out as a siscon? What was he thinking at that moment?

Does anyone recognize the wall or the floor from the preview clip? That would help because if it's at Shin's house then that is definitely not Jun in the red shirt.
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Old 2008-02-23, 21:56   Link #65
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Wasn't Shin's mother wearing a sweater that colour (#2) back in episode 6 (I think..) ?
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:03   Link #66
cloudninja
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Wasn't Shin's mother wearing a sweater that colour (#2) back in episode 6 (I think..) ?
You're right. In Hiromi's flashback we see Shin's mother wearing that red shirt that does look like the one in the episode 8 preview clip. It's in episode 6 at 11:53

I also identified the room as either Hiromi's room or the dining room. If you look at episode 5 at 16:22 and 16:25 you will see the green floor with the black line and then the wall that looks like the one in the preview clip. That's from Hiromi's room. You can't see the smaller green lines in the clip from Hiromi's room at episode 5 16:22 but the dining also has the same carpeting and you can see it looks very similar at episode 2 12:46, this time with smaller green lines because the view is closer. The dining room also has some of the same paneling as Hiromi's room.

So I was right about it not being Jun's shirt. This supports the theory that Hiromi was taken back home by the police and then takes her clothes off, probably in her room instead of the dining room. I think Shin's mother is trying to talk to Hiromi in that preview clip.

Feeling a little tired so it would be nice if someone wants to post a few pics for comparison. If not, I'll do it sometime later.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-23 at 22:17.
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:20   Link #67
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But what's your alternate theory, then? Who else would Hiromi undress herself for at this point in the story and why? And with that look on her face? It's nice to say that doesn't look like his shirt, but if not, then what is it? The shirt wars continue...
Ok, I was shot down about my "chronlogical previews"! Now, for what reason will the police be at Shin's house with the emergency lights on. My theory is that Jun was stopped and they were escorted home. his motorcycle most likely was towed away.

I went back and checked verious previews from the previous episodes and all the events have been chronlogical with the events in the actual episode. Now I know you said that maybe they show the police car and then they show Hiromi undressing in a different place. So just why was the police at the household. Police doesn't send a patrol car for run away kids, it usually takes 24 hours before you can file a missing person case and that is done in the police station.
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:34   Link #68
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Ok, I was shot down about my "chronlogical previews"! Now, for what reason will the police be at Shin's house with the emergency lights on. My theory is that Jun was stopped and they were escorted home. his motorcycle most likely was towed away.

I went back and checked verious previews from the previous episodes and all the events have been chronlogical with the events in the actual episode. Now I know you said that maybe they show the police car and then they show Hiromi undressing in a different place. So just why was the police at the household. Police doesn't send a patrol car for run away kids, it usually takes 24 hours before you can file a missing person case and that is done in the police station.
What I meant was, it's possible that the way they present things in the anime isn't necessarily in order. For example, it's possible that, rather than happening in the present, the undressing scene happens in a flashback. That could either be a flashback to something that happened just prior or, if the theory about this being Shinichirou's mom next to Hiromi are true, maybe it happened months prior? Even if the previews are chronological to the way things are presented in the show, we don't necessarily know that the show itself is presenting the facts in chronological order.

(If the "Shinichirou's mom" theory is true and the timeline is linear, then why is Hiromi wearing the same clothes she was wearing earlier, but the mom got changed in to the shirt she was wearing a year ago? Since we are basing all this on the corner of a shirt and all... Even with the explanations offered, I don't think we can be too quick to dismiss earlier possibilities.)
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:45   Link #69
cloudninja
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why is Hiromi wearing the same clothes she was wearing earlier, but the mom got changed in to the shirt she was wearing a year ago?
Actually, it looks like a red cardigan, something you normally put on top of another shirt. Makes sense that she would add it on since it would probably be a couple hours later into the night and it's cold (it's snowing outside). Hiromi on the other hand is wearing the exact same clothes so the link is strong that this occurs a few hours after the end of episode 8.
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:46   Link #70
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What I meant was, it's possible that the way they present things in the anime isn't necessarily in order. For example, it's possible that, rather than happening in the present, the undressing scene happens in a flashback. That could either be a flashback to something that happened just prior or, if the theory about this being Shinichirou's mom next to Hiromi are true, maybe it happened months prior? Even if the previews are chronological to the way things are presented in the show, we don't necessarily know that the show itself is presenting the facts in chronological order.

(If the "Shinichirou's mom" theory is true and the timeline is linear, then why is Hiromi wearing the same clothes she was wearing earlier, but the mom got changed in to the shirt she was wearing a year ago? Since we are basing all this on the corner of a shirt and all... Even with the explanations offered, I don't think we can be too quick to dismiss earlier possibilities.)
I guess we have to wait and see! I won't be able to change your mind and you won't be able to change mine. Whoever is right when episode 9 broadcast next week, can come here and brag about it.
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:51   Link #71
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Actually, it looks like a red cardigan, something you normally put on top of another shirt. Makes sense that she would add it on since it would probably be a couple hours later into the night and it's cold. Hiromi on the other hand is wearing the exact same clothes so the link is strong that this occurs a few hours after the end of episode 8.
But she was already wearing a similar sweater (cardigan?) in the scene when Hiromi ran off, except it was white. Changed her mind? Perhaps she was out all night and didn't have a change of clothes and this is now the next morning or something? Despite having that big fight/blow-up, why would she be getting changed next to her, and why would they focus on the clothes falling/being taken off in the way they do?

Really, just because Shinichirou's mom was shown once wearing a similar-looking red sweater, I'm not sure that's conclusive evidence... I mean, yes, it's possible, but... I guess I'm still not convinced it's that much more plausible. Maybe.

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I guess we have to wait and see! I won't be able to change your mind and you won't be able to change mine. Whoever is right when episode 9 broadcast next week, can come here and brag about it.
That may be true for you, but it certainly isn't the case for me. I could certainly be convinced, but I'm just not sure that a corner of a shirt is enough evidence. I'm not interested in bragging, though. Right or wrong, the episode itself is more important, and I'm sure its explanation will make perfect sense. I won't feel bad if I "guessed wrong" (since I don't usually spend that much time speculating about such minor scenes/details anyway )
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:56   Link #72
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Despite having that big fight/blow-up, why would she be getting changed next to her, and why would they focus on the clothes falling/being taken off in the way they do?
Remember in the preview that Shin's mom say , "Is it ok if I stay here a while longer?"
Ahhh! this is getting tiresome. I really want episode 9 out so we can move on from this argument!
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Old 2008-02-23, 23:09   Link #73
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Remember in the preview that Shin's mom say , "Is it ok if I stay here a while longer?"
Ahhh! this is getting tiresome. I really want episode 9 out so we can move on from this argument!
Well, if it's getting tiresome, then why do you keep arguing? If you assume that voiceover matches the scene (which is possible, but isn't always the case considering past previews), then what do you suppose is happening? Are you suggesting that this is the scene where Shinichirou's mom says something to Hiromi that subsequently has Shinichirou upset with her? (Again, assuming linear chronology in the preview.)

I don't know... you make it sound like it's so obvious what's happening, so what is it? Why? How does it fit with what's happened so far? Hiromi left with Jun, and then?
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Old 2008-02-23, 23:50   Link #74
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Well, if it's getting tiresome, then why do you keep arguing? If you assume that voiceover matches the scene (which is possible, but isn't always the case considering past previews), then what do you suppose is happening? Are you suggesting that this is the scene where Shinichirou's mom says something to Hiromi that subsequently has Shinichirou upset with her? (Again, assuming linear chronology in the preview.)

I don't know... you make it sound like it's so obvious what's happening, so what is it? Why? How does it fit with what's happened so far? Hiromi left with Jun, and then?
I am going to summarize my theory of what happened and that will be the last of it. I have already said the same in the episode 8 thread but I will repeat it here. I don't think that the person on the left of Hiromi is Jun. I think that is Shin's mother. I think Hiromi was taken home by the poilce after She and Jun were stopped for unsafe driving during dangerous weather conditions.

Shin's mother is talking to her, and It seems Hiromi doesn't care to listen to what she is saying. that is my take on what happens. Now any further argument is pointless, the only thing we can do to disprove my theory is to wait for episode 9. Any argument from anyone is pointless, my theory is as valid as any other theory until disprove by episode 9 itself.
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Old 2008-02-24, 00:18   Link #75
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that is my take on what happens. Now any further argument is pointless, the only thing we can do to disprove my theory is to wait for episode 9. Any argument from anyone is pointless, my theory is as valid as any other theory until disprove by episode 9 itself.
That's quite a statement! Not talking about this theory in particular, but you can't just theorize whatever you want, whether or not it's justified, and say "well, that's my theory, and it's valid because no one can prove anything!" What a crazy assertion! Anime really isn't that random.

In any case, as for the theory itself, I'm not going to argue with you obviously (you've made it pretty damn clear you won't listen anyway). My only comment is that having them be brought home by the police for that reason sort of seems to negate the impact of her decision to run off. If there's some sort of accident, or if the police are asked to find them since she didn't return home, or something like that, then that'd seem to make more sense to me from where we stand right now. Otherwise, it seems too simple an "undo" of Hiromi's decision. Who knows, though...
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Old 2008-02-24, 00:24   Link #76
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That's quite a statement! Not talking about this theory in particular, but you can't just theorize whatever you want, whether or not it's justified, and say "well, that's my theory, and it's valid because no one can prove anything!" What a crazy assertion! Anime really isn't that random.

The only thing I said was that mytheory is as valid as any other theory until we watch episode 9 and see who the person next to Hiromi is.
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Old 2008-02-24, 00:59   Link #77
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The only thing I said was that mytheory is as valid as any other theory until we watch episode 9 and see who the person next to Hiromi is.
Yes, I know that's what you said... and, in reply, I just told you that, in fact, not all theories are equally valid/believable even though they can't be absolutely proven false (though I don't necessarily see any glaring problem with your specific proposed theory). If one's going to propose a theory, I think they should be prepared to defend it against critiques, concerns, and complications. That's all...
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Old 2008-02-24, 01:21   Link #78
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The Shin's mom cardigan theory stands at the top right now. Shame really, Hiromi being exposed as an easy slut would have made Shin's upcoming decision a lot easier.
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Old 2008-02-24, 02:04   Link #79
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The Shin's mom cardigan theory stands at the top right now. Shame really, Hiromi being exposed as an easy slut would have made Shin's upcoming decision a lot easier.
Yeah; that would be so low of her is she did offer herself to Jun. I'd be more acceptable if they were a bit older like 20 or something having/treating sex as a way to forget things but damn; But there is still a possibility that preview is wrong and I hope so it is if any or else I'll be dropping this show already. I've been reading/watching far too many angsty animes and manga's I'm starting to become Emo.
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Old 2008-02-24, 02:05   Link #80
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Ok, here are the pics to prove that the red shirt in the episode 9 preview belongs to Shin's mother. The location of the episode 9 preview pic is either Hiromi's room or the dining room as they both have the same green carpet with black lines and they both have one wall that look the same. It's more likely to be Hiromi's room.

Spoiler for Hiromi episode 9 preview pic 1 showing green carpet, note the black line:


Spoiler for Hiromi episode 9 preview pic 2 showing red shirt and wall:

Here is Shin's mother wearing her cardigan. This scene is outside and during Hiromi's flashback so the color is little bit lighter. Actually the reason is that her entire flashback scene is slightly washed out compared to the rest of the episode as you can see by watching the clip in episode 6 at 11:53 compared to the rest of the episode. Even washed out, the color is very close. The shape and style of shirt matching exactly. Also, you can see she is wearing the cardigan over her usual shirt/light sweater whatever.
Spoiler for Shin's mother from Hiromi's flashback in episode 6. Note that it matches closely with the red shirt in the episode 9 preview pic:

Spoiler for Hiromi's room - shows that the carpet is green and there are large black lines like the one in the episode 9 preview pic:


Spoiler for Hiromi's room - shows one of her walls, note that it matches the wall pattern from the episode 9 preview pic. :

Dining room shares the same carpet as Hiromi's room, green with black stripes. Up close, you can see the green line striations of the carpet just like the up close carpet pic from episode 9 previews although the viewpoint is a little higher so it's not as defined.
Spoiler for Dining room of Shin's house - up close view:


So I have established that the location is either Hiromi's room or the dining room because they both have the same carpeting and one section of the wall that matches the episode 9 preview pics. It's more likely to be Hiromi's room. There is also the match of the red cardigan. Shin's mother does'nt have to change clothing, she just puts the cardigan over her regular shirt when it's colder.

Now it's possible that the scene where she is taking off her clothes might be a flashback, but that possibility is lower than having the scene take place in the current time. At any rate, this scene happens in Shin's house and the red cardigan belongs to Shin's mother.

Let's get along boys and girls. Everyone is entitled to their opinions even though some have more basis for their theories. No one is right all the time. Some things you can predict with a very high level of probability, some only a moderate level.
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