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Old 2008-03-22, 14:33   Link #221
Theowne
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I think the series has had "Hiromi + Shin" plastered on it since the very beginning, and contrary to what some have said earlier on, it doesn't exactly take much deep understanding or analysis to figure that out. Personally I connect more with Shin+Noe but unless we're really not giving the writers enough credit, I don't know if they could pull it off this late into the game. A shame (for me) because I've found it very charming, one of the highlights of my anime viewing in the past while.
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Last edited by Theowne; 2008-03-22 at 15:15.
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Old 2008-03-22, 16:02   Link #222
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I think the series has had "Hiromi + Shin" plastered on it since the very beginning, and contrary to what some have said earlier on, it doesn't exactly take much deep understanding or analysis to figure that out.
It was apparent from the start and the only thing that might have kept it from happening was if they were siblings. Since they were being too obvious with it the events of episode 6 made me confident of the final pairing while a lot of Hiromi fans were committing suicide and Noe fans were celebrating like they won the Super bowl. Rest is history and next week will seal the deal, I do give the writers some props for having a few nice smokescreens (I mean c'mon some Noe fans actually feel confident right now even after the events of 9 and 10!) but I feel they will just go against everything they did in the show to end it with Noe.

Unless they used it in episode 12 they still haven't used the second half of track #30 from the OST. The first half was played during the festival flashback scene in episode 10, I'm 99% sure the triumphant second half will be played in episode 13.

Quoting myself from AnimeOnDVD forums when the True Tears OST came out the 27th of Feb

Quote:
Fuck it, I'm calling it now, track 30 "Afure Deru, Kimochi" is played when Shin and Hiromi finally get together.
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Old 2008-03-22, 16:45   Link #223
jaisrh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I think the series has had "Hiromi + Shin" plastered on it since the very beginning, and contrary to what some have said earlier on, it doesn't exactly take much deep understanding or analysis to figure that out. Personally I connect more with Shin+Noe but unless we're really not giving the writers enough credit, I don't know if they could pull it off this late into the game. A shame (for me) because I've found it very charming, one of the highlights of my anime viewing in the past while.
I think most of the people who have been unsure who Shin will end up with are the more casual viewers who are more vulnerable to little plot twists by the writers that make them unsure of what's going to happen.

The group that has analyzed the story in greater depth has a much higher percentage of people who are firm in their belief of what will happen. So yes, you don't need any indepth understanding or analysis to know what will happen but there is a strong correlation between having that understanding and whether or not you're either sure or unsure of the ending.

I find it partially a limitation of the show and also the viewer when the bulk of the show shows Hiromi being affected by Shin's mother which limits Hiromi's development and interaction with Shin for 8 episodes. The show strongly implies through words, thoughts, and actions that Shin and Hiromi had years of interaction together as classmates and 'casual' friends but they don't have enough time to show it in more detail while some viewers prefer to not accept what they can't see. I wish the show was longer so that the writers could flesh out their past some more. So that's how we end up with a few episodes of development between Shin and Noe overcoming the much longer history between Shin and Hiromi in the eyes of some viewers. Except that is not true in the eyes of Shin, Hiromi, and the writers who have tried to send that message that some viewers prefer to not see or accept because of their preference for Noe.
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Old 2008-03-22, 17:00   Link #224
Theowne
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The again, many people (and anime characters) have years of interaction or being casual friends, and that doesn't exactly mean a relationship is guaranteed. The creators of this show tell us that there is depth behind the Shin-Hiromi relationship, they imply there is, but in my opinion it's never brought out and re-enforced properly, Hiromi is not developed enough as a sympathetic character. She was under stress from Shin's mother for a good part of the show, but I personally find the isolated incidents, eg, the comments towards Noe in the eight episode, to be more problematic with me as a viewer. The stiffened interaction with Shin wasn't much of an issue as you could see the reason for it as has been mentioned repeatedly. Anyways, prefer Noe doesn't necessarily mean "refuse to see that Hiromi will be the "victor"".
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Old 2008-03-22, 17:09   Link #225
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
She was under stress from Shin's mother for a good part of the show, but I personally find the isolated incidents, eg, the comments towards Noe in the eight episode, to be more problematic with me as a viewer.
I really don't think it was that isolated since she was repeating what Shin's mother said to her with that exchange to Noe, which she realized immediately. Also I find it refreshing that the love rivals in this show dislike each other but hey that's just me! If you want to watch a show that lives in a fantasy land where the rivals do everything they can for each other than try Kimikiss.
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Old 2008-03-22, 17:11   Link #226
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Okay the way the story goes it leads to
Spoiler for speculations that have been accumulated throughout episode 6 onwards:
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Old 2008-03-22, 17:28   Link #227
jaisrh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
She was under stress from Shin's mother for a good part of the show, but I personally find the isolated incidents, eg, the comments towards Noe in the eight episode, to be more problematic with me as a viewer.
Things like that seem isolated if you don't make the connection that Shin's mother has talked to Hiromi that same way, she had partially 'imprinted' her own mannerisms onto Hiromi after a year of cruel verbal attacks on top of her lie. Hiromi realized it right after saying it to Noe and did'nt like that Shin's mother was starting to make her this way. That along with the partially burned picture of her mother caused Hiromi to temporarily break down.

Did you not make the connection? Because it sounds like you think that was Hiromi's own character showing and not because it was a result of the strain that Shin's mother was putting her through. Connections like that can really add up and affect your view of the show.
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Old 2008-03-22, 17:30   Link #228
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Quote:
Also I find it refreshing that the love rivals in this show dislike each other but hey that's just me!
I've never seen any indication that Noe dislikes Hiromi that much. The first real interaction between them was when Hiromi wanted to be Noe's friend, where Noe immediately recognized it was a lie and I assume that didn't help Noe's perception of Hiromi. Regardless, later on, such as the scene I mentioned earlier (ep 8), she was friendly towards her and at the end of episode 11, though she knows she will probably lose Shin to her, still doesn't show much resentment towards her as a person.

Quote:
If you want to watch a show that lives in a fantasy land where the rivals do everything they can for each other than try Kimikiss.
Actually, I never said I dislike the fact that the show is this way. I merely said that it is the prime reason for some viewers, or me at least, not liking Hiromi's character that much. But I'm not sure why that would mean I want the extreme in the other direction that you claim.

@jaisrh

I do not believe that this connection excuses Hiromi's choice to use those words. Stress does not necessarily give a person free reign in terms of how I will react to their actions. Ever since early on, when Hiromi tries to basically use the rumours about Noe to slyly persuade Shin, or trying to befriend Noe for not-so-honest reasons, until that scene, it's just a general imprint that I dislike in a character. Perhaps you're too lenient, or perhaps I'm too strict in terms of sympathizing with a character. Maybe it's a combination of both.
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Old 2008-03-22, 18:12   Link #229
jaisrh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
@jaisrh

I do not believe that this connection excuses Hiromi's choice to use those words. Stress does not necessarily give a person free reign in terms of how I will react to their actions. Perhaps you're too lenient, or perhaps I'm too strict in terms of sympathizing with a character. Maybe it's a combination of both.
The thing is, did she consciously come up with those words herself when she said them to Noe in episode 8 or did they come out before she realized it because of her experience with Shin's mother? That is the real key. It's the latter because Hiromi quickly realized afterwards that they were the words that Shin's mother had recently spoken to her. And she did'nt like it. It was not her choice of words as you put it because she did'nt consciously choose them herself.

Seriously, how many people can really relate to losing both your parents at a young age, then going to the house of the person you like only to have the mother tell you a cruel lie and verbally attack you for over a year. I can only relate to and understand part of it yet I can understand a lot of the pain involved. It's easy to judge without being to relate at least partially.

In real life most people have found it very difficult to deal with having lost both parents while they're still only a teenager, even if they have siblings or close relatives to share the pain with. Hiromi has no siblings, and no close relatives that she would have preferred living with. She's had to deal with her grief herself, then you add Shin's mother telling her that lie and unfairly putting her down verbally on a consistent basis. It's very easy to say she should act a certain way when the majority of us haven't been through even a part of what Hiromi has. This is what the writers themselves have set up but unfortunately the ability to empathize varies widely among people.

Last edited by jaisrh; 2008-03-22 at 18:25.
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Old 2008-03-22, 19:11   Link #230
Theowne
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Before I continue, I do enjoy having discussions and indeed, my opinions have been affected throughout my conversations here but I wish you'd not add the condescending jabs at the end, it's not quite necessary. It's an anime, and different people have different reactions to it.

Quote:
The thing is, did she consciously come up with those words herself when she said them to Noe in episode 8 or did they come out before she realized it because of her experience with Shin's mother?
I believe that Hiromi was resentful at Noe because she was with Shin and seemed happy, so her impulse was to verbally hurt her and she followed that impulse. Her actions and specific words were obviously influenced by previous events, and she did realize what she did was wrong, but my judgment is affected by previous scenes as well as subsequent scenes (such as the indifference to Noe later on, as I mentioned in the ep11 thread). I didn't have the same reaction immediately after episode 8. I never said it wasn't realistic or that it wasn't understandable in her case, just that I personally did not like it.

I don't mean to downplay the effect of certain tragedy or stress on Hiromi, but at the same time, I don't think that it is incorrect for me to hold certain standards for certain things, and that obviously comes from my own personal experiences and not just some intangible concept of "ability to empathize". I think it is not as rewarding as a viewer to take the writers at their blunt word and give characters with tragic pasts an "all flaws excused" approach. I suppose that someone who does not like Noe too much would not have the same issue I have, since it's Hiromi's interaction towards Noe that is the root of the issue for me.
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Old 2008-03-22, 20:47   Link #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
It was apparent from the start and the only thing that might have kept it from happening was if they were siblings.
I'm still trying to figure out why they even started that sub plot in the first place.... I mean it seems kind of silly now.
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Old 2008-03-22, 22:16   Link #232
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I know everyone is going to jump on me for this, but the presence of that subplot is actually key, particularly if it ends up being a Shin/Noe ending. Without that subplot, a Shin/Noe relationship would have never developed. Shin would have been with Hiromi from the very beginning, and there would have been no story. The writers had to come up with a reason for Hiromi acting so distant from Shin. This subplot was key in keeping Shin and Hiromi apart, but it also bought time for someone like Noe to enter Shin's life and potentially his heart.

In any case, I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next week.
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Old 2008-03-22, 22:41   Link #233
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Originally Posted by lea View Post
I know everyone is going to jump on me for this, but the presence of that subplot is actually key, particularly if it ends up being a Shin/Noe ending. Without that subplot, a Shin/Noe relationship would have never developed. Shin would have been with Hiromi from the very beginning, and there would have been no story. The writers had to come up with a reason for Hiromi acting so distant from Shin. This subplot was key in keeping Shin and Hiromi apart, but it also bought time for someone like Noe to enter Shin's life and potentially his heart.

In any case, I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next week.
I agree the plot was necessary to keep Shin and Hiromi apart. That was the only thing that kept them distant. Notice that Hiromi started to show interest on Shin when Noe showed up, If Noe had not showed up, the sibling thing will still be unresolved and Shin and Hiromi will be further apart. Everything that has happened has been for the purpose of those two getting together. Even the cliffhanger in episode 12 is necessary. Just look at Shin's determined face when he came out from the closet!
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Old 2008-03-22, 22:49   Link #234
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I agree. But I think the question was why the subplot was even started in the first place. The subplot was there so we could have a story - It explained why Hiromi was not with Shin, and this, in essence, opened the door for Noe.

Noe indirectly helped bring about a resolution to that subplot, which is fine. Obviously, she is the one that moves the plot along. From the very beginning, Noe has been the plot driver that has caused others to take action. She is meant to cause some sort of change in Shin's situation. I've always thought that either she was going to help bring Shin and Hiromi together or cause some sort of change in Shin's feelings toward Hiromi. What this final change is is still not clear to me. The writers still hint at both possibilities, so I'm waiting for the last episode to see how everything gets resolved.

Everything could very well be for bringing Shin/Hiromi together, but I also think the opposite can be true. It is easy to argue any plot device/subplot for both sides. I think that's part of what makes this series so good and keeps a lot of us guessing.

Last edited by lea; 2008-03-22 at 23:28.
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Old 2008-03-23, 01:22   Link #235
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My jap sucks, but did I hear this right?

Spoiler for ep 13 title:


Kinda different from the title we were expecting. :P
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Old 2008-03-23, 01:34   Link #236
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The original title was only a tentative one anyway. Whether that line still exists or not in the script is uncertain.

To possibly nail the coffin shut, anyone with song lyric translating skills care to take a stab at this? (2nd song on ED cd track)

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-23, 01:39   Link #237
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Oooooh~Noooooo
Hiromi's weeping all the time and Noe...(suicide?..)
waiting for Episode 13...the finale...
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Old 2008-03-23, 04:32   Link #238
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Originally Posted by roan View Post
The original title was only a tentative one anyway. Whether that line still exists or not in the script is uncertain.

To possibly nail the coffin shut, anyone with song lyric translating skills care to take a stab at this? (2nd song on ED cd track)

Spoiler:
Spoiler for translation:
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Old 2008-03-23, 07:25   Link #239
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What makes you think they will use the second song on the ED cd? For instance the insert song by eufonius in episode 10 was a brand new song and wasn't the B side for Reflectia. If they use an insert song next episode it will more than likely be the episode 10 one again or a brand new one that will be on the "Insert & Image Song" Album coming out on April 16th.

If you want a musicical hint for what will happen next episode track #30 on the OST is the obvious one since it's a Hiromi X Shin song and as I said in post #222 in this thread the more triumphant half hasn't be used to this stage.
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Old 2008-03-24, 08:00   Link #240
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man, ep12 was really a awesome(unbelieveable) turning >.<", i don't understand more...

And now Noe suicide in ep12(jump fall from tree, should be ok), and Hiromi leave behind, damn hard to judge. Winning will be who? By now for me who also nevermind, i want the ending.

wait for next week for the answer.
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