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Old 2009-11-27, 13:45   Link #161
HegemonKhan
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ryus,

you forgot one other big moment in the Clare and Raki relationship... which is one of my favorites...

right before Clare leaves to go with Miria, Deneve, and Helen to (unknowingly end up) fighting the male awakened being:

Raki (now knowing about ranks and Clare being rank 47 from helen) tells Clare to this effect (it actually has to do with only taking enough money to last a week) that SHE WILL COME BACK TO HIM ALIVE, because he is worried about her.

Clare felt all warm and melty inside, that Raki would care so much for her, but Clare has to re-learn how humans show thanks.....

Clare (gently) punches Raki in the forehead !!!!

This is one of my favorite scenes !!! Better then all the others (lol), when Clare punches Raki in the head !!!!

actually this whole part-section of the manga/anime is great...

i just love helen teasing Clare and Raki about being "more intimate" with each other, or rather, Raki being Clare's "toy" (i'd love being Clare's "toy" !!!!, lol), and Clare getting uber pised at helen and "attacking her" (well drawing her sword out) !!!!
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Old 2009-11-27, 14:00   Link #162
Weird D
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There are two other moments I enjoy greatly :

Helen attempting to pull rank over Jean, only to learn she's a single digit. Cue to the first WTF face we ever saw on a Claymore.

Another one is Renee's introduction chapter and her interactions with Raki. First she starts as the typical aloof Claymore, only to be thrown off several times by a mere human, culminating with another WTF face. This is another great moment for Raki, in a different way, as he is the only human to have ever caused so many different reactions from a Claymore : Renee show more emotions on this single chapter than most others do in ten
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Old 2009-11-27, 14:23   Link #163
Vantek
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Quote:
Clare felt all warm and melty inside, that Raki would care so much for her, but Clare has to re-learn how humans show thanks.....

Clare (gently) punches Raki in the forehead !!!!
Hehe, I felt it was very appropriate. Sort of, "look, it's already established we care about each other, now stop repeating all the time how much you care about me and man up a bit because our life won't be easy!"

On a similar note, I enjoyed the scene in the manga where Clare smiled when Raki made that silly joke about taking care of food being his responsibility since he's the cook. It was a very small gesture but felt very rewarding. Very nice and subtle. I wonder why that didn't make it into the anime.

Quote:
i'd love being Clare's "toy" !!!!, lol
Say that after you've seen the scar :P
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Old 2009-11-27, 15:42   Link #164
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Actually the whole gross belly thing doesn't add up very well. Some Claymores can regrow limbs with perfect skin. Everyone can regenerate some pretty bad wounds going right through the stomach. So it's weird that they're unable to fix a merely superficial feature, say by growing regular skin over it. Unless they just don't bother.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:11   Link #165
Weird D
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IMO, I'm not sure whatever the Claymores have is that spread out on their torso. We've had a fair amount of fanservice from Deneve, but we never saw anything through the torn parts of her uniform (see chapter 61). Also, we know it does not bulge out considering they wear skin tight clothes.

Anyway, shouldn't this be moved to the biology thread?
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:12   Link #166
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I mean if they can regrow limbs, they should at least be able to grow nice-looking skin over the ugly bits without actually changing them...
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Old 2009-11-28, 02:09   Link #167
Ryus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
Yes, I feel Claymore is one of the very few stories where the main charachter(s) constantly escape huge danger, but yet you feel the danger is real every time, and it's the charachters' insurmountable persistence despite overwhelming odds that gives them the victory, not mere author's whim.

EDIT: Umm, Ryus, it seems you've been thinking I was talking about Ophelia scene all this time? LOL, sorry I should have been more clear >< I assumed everyone considered the cathedral scene as the most important between Raki and Clare, didn't realise it's possible to take it in another way...
Oooh!

Now your making more since to me. I couldn't figure out why you where arguing that Raki taking on Clare was more important than the Cathedral scene. I believe you said something along the lines of Raki risking his life to save Clare, so I thought you meant him taking on Ophelia since in the Cathedral he chose to die with her. You later said I misunderstood and said he wanted to die with her but I didn't want to pry too deep into your reasoning for Raki wanting to die with Clare in the Ophelia fight, since a favorite scene thread is bound to have some strong opinions and you seemed kinda vocal about are lack of picking the Cathedral scene. All I wanted to do was stress why I thought the Teresa/Clare bonding was so important and deserving of a top spot if not the top spot.

Well... in my top 5 list here I stated my top 5 change all the time, based on my mood. I feel that though the whole Cathedral Clare/Raki moment was great it was the saving grace of the slowest paced chapter in the manga. There's great character development in the chapter but I also felt that yoma were getting old and seemed kinda weak by this point, plus lets not mention the whole "who's the yoma" now that Clare can't sense yoki plot was lame. The moment Raki mentioned the mummies I knew who the yoma was and spent the next 30+ minutes waiting for Clare to figure it out (I watched the anime first, then read the manga). At that point I was worried about if I would keep watching after this arc, however the ending of the arc was great... just like you are arguing .

As much as I liked Raki for saving Clare, I really wanted to know more about Clare. She was so interesting to me and I wanted to discover as much as I could about her. I got kinda angry that after that the next arc had a new character... I didn't care about this new Claymore... Like this "Teresa" could ever be as interesting as Clare (, I still laugh at myself when looking back at it). Though I quickly realized my mistake .

I almost flipped out when "another" child was saved by a Claymore. For just a moment I wondered if the whole anime was about saving kids from yoma . Though Teresa's reaction to the child was priceless. I couldn't help but think she was the anti-Clare and they would be destined to fight since there swords were crossed in the intro. ( I get a huge kick out of thinking back on myself for that one ). Well, now to my point, at the end of the episode Teresa "named" Clare and that's when everything with Raki and Clare fell into place. So after that realization I just knew they where destined to bond and have some tragedy befall them for Clare to end up as she was in the beginning of the story. So when this cold women dropped her emotional shield and let this helpless child see the real her that needed love too I couldn't help but shed tears too. That followed Teresa attempting to do the right thing for Clare, by giving her up, but by circumstance to be forced into the choice of being hunted by her own to save Clare again or go back to her old ways and let Clare die. Well, it really moved me.

So, to me, when you compare the two scenes one was the saving grace of a weak arc that saved the life of the main character and let her better understand how the child traveling with her truly felt about her (which was hinted at prior to this) and the other was the main event that saved two people emotionally but the eventual death of one of them and the other becoming a monster herself and reverting back to her emotionally stunted ways. Well... it's just not a real challenge to me. One is the what caused Clare to be the way she is and the other being hints and reminders of what she truly desires. Though the later has not quite developed that way... at least yet.

In fact it's lead to far more plot lines about Clare being partially awakened then Clare getting the opportunity to bond with Raki and dropping her emotional guard thus becoming "human" again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
Ophelia scene was just a cool scene, where Raki showed he's not nearly as big of a pussy as people might have thought. Like you, I didn't feel it was very emotional or pivotal in the development of charachters.

But did you feel the cathedral scene was even less important then? I mean if you excluded the possibility that I was talking about that scene, you must have thought even less of it than the Ophelia scene?

And BTW Ophelia scene actually DOES show up on people's favourite scene lists hehe.
Yeah, Raki fighting Ophelia was nice but not a pivotal moment. The Cathedral scene was far more important then Raki risking his life again for Clare, it did show that he would even fight for her but that's about it. The rest had been done before.

I recall there parting kiss being on lists and some of Ophelia's dialog too but not the moment of Raki taking on Ophelia. Need to double check that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
I mean she had no meaning in her life or nothing to live for. If she was on the way of becoming a murderer, then it would have only been a consequence of that.

Clare didn't have anything live for either. Except revenge, but I suspect you'll agree that is a very cold and depressing purpose, not comparable to having a strong bond with another person.

Both charachters in their respective scenes had the love of a child completely turn them around and fill their empty lives with purpose. In Clare's case, this was further escalated by it giving her strength to do something that was considered impossible and come back from awakening. And her scene was first in the story as well. Yet people love Teresa+Clare scene but don't seem to even mention Clare+Raki scene (in the cathedral, that is ><), which I find disturbing, as it seems to stem from some lame medieval social rules that males shouldn't show affection.


I felt the reasons were effectively the same on a psychological level and there were minor differences
Sorry I just see those differences as being far more vast then you seem to. Well have to agree to disagree here. Though I will state that I see myself as more analyzing the characters underlying causes for there "coldness" and "loneliness" and why each character was saved by a child. When I seem to be interrupting you as just analyzing there emotions and base desires. For a psychological analysis I view myself as being correct, no offense, but you do need to understand the route of the emotional state for a diagnosable psychological analysis and not just the emotional state. Sorry if I misunderstood you there... I don't mean for this to come off as insulting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
Clare followed Teresa until she was so weak that she was about to collapse, and walked off a cliff. Because she wanted to comfort her. I think that counts as doing quite a bit. Besides, she also attacked a bandit for Teresa, against whom she was completely powerless... And faced the consequences in form of severe beating... Yet even during that she was worried about Teresa, not herself.
First off I said only what Clare told us, she was ashamed of her self for being over come with fear. That is Clare's stated opinion about how she felt. Second I was corrected on this part by the readers of the RAW, now I guess it's my turn to point it out. Clare was raped by her brother. I've been told the VIZ version (aka the official English version, has a slightly modified pic and dialog from the RAW. Plus lets just not even think about all that the yoma did to her when she was there prisoner.) Look at the position of Clare's brother in relation to Clare's legs, then her brothers nakedness, plus how she appears pinned down by him, finally she asks her brother "Why". She knew yoma ate people, so the "why" more likely deals with why he raped her instead of eating her... makes me wonder if there's something unique about Clare (like there seems to be with Raki) or whether her brother just became a freak after being taken over by the yoma... kinda like Duff. Though her brother crying indicates it wasn't that he was like Duff. Plus what are the odds that two groups of yoma decided to torture and rape Clare rather then just feeding on her. The more I think of it the more sense it's starting to make... um, I'll have to ponder this idea more. .
Spoiler for Image size:


So... Clare likely was rushing to save Teresa since of her experience of being raped herself. It's simple really Clare's was able to risk her life against a human and because of her own experience with being raped for the one person she felt any connection to. Yet she coward behind Teresa upon seeing Priscilla's face at ~ 70% power and seemed to be too scared to really move at all for the whole fight. Her shame is likely based off of a "What if I had done something differently" thought but there is some logic behind it and a lot of emotion.

Of course I can't read Japanese so I am taking the word of another on this matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
Seriously I don't understand how you make such a big difference between Teresa+Clare and Clare+Raki! They're VERY similar!
The devil is in the details.

No offense but I see tons of different details between the two groups. Each is unique and important but for different reasons. So each should be treated that way too, each story deserves it.
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Old 2009-11-28, 08:34   Link #168
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
I couldn't help but think she was the anti-Clare and they would be destined to fight since there swords were crossed in the intro.

Lol, I remember thinking that Teresa was the final villain.
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Old 2009-11-28, 09:26   Link #169
Vantek
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Sorry I just see those differences as being far more vast then you seem to. Well have to agree to disagree here.
Fair enough, NP ^^

Quote:
The devil is in the details.
Oh, I don't mind the details being different, but I mean the core issue here. In my mind,

Teresa (as first depicted) = eroded person with nothing valuable in her life --> finds a child who is drawn to her --> rejects at first but gets a little nice with her later --> suddenly in one scene realises just how much she means to her and suddenly her life is filled with meaning and warmth

Clare (as first depicted) = eroded person with nothing valuable in her life --> finds a child who is drawn to her --> rejects at first but gets a little nice with him later --> suddenly in one scene realises just how much she means to him and suddenly her life is filled with meaning and warmth (and additionally her life is saved as a result as well)

The details are just details. And frankly, even the details are similar in many aspects.

Quote:
Though I will state that I see myself as more analyzing the characters underlying causes for there "coldness" and "loneliness" and why each character was saved by a child. When I seem to be interrupting you as just analyzing there emotions and base desires. For a psychological analysis I view myself as being correct, no offense, but you do need to understand the route of the emotional state for a diagnosable psychological analysis and not just the emotional state. Sorry if I misunderstood you there... I don't mean for this to come off as insulting.
Well I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly what you are trying to say but to me the fact that someone is cold and lonely is clearly primary over the details of how she became cold and lonely. Wether someone is cold and lonely because she lost someone dear to her, or because she never had anyone dear to her, or because she was raped as a child, or because she is crippled, or because her brain chemistry is messed up... It doesn't really matter much, the most important thing is she's cold and lonely and how could she get better.

Besides, how can you claim that Teresa and Clare became cold and lonely for radically different reasons? It is never explained what happened to Teresa, but the most natural assumption to me would be that she also lost her loved ones, like pretty much everyone in the entire series.

Quote:
I couldn't figure out why you where arguing that Raki taking on Clare was more important than the Cathedral scene. I believe you said something along the lines of Raki risking his life to save Clare, so I thought you meant him taking on Ophelia since in the Cathedral he chose to die with her.
Well my original post that you were responding to was this:

Quote:
Wow, what's up with everyone mentioning the scene where Teresa realised Clare was trying to comfort her, but noone says anything about the scene where Raki saved Clare?

Seriously guys, this male child hate is really disturbing. Children are children. Please solve your issues.
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Old 2009-11-28, 11:54   Link #170
Shiek927
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Lol, I remember thinking that Teresa was the final villain.
Roflmao, I wish I could give you rep for that one
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Old 2009-11-28, 13:49   Link #171
HegemonKhan
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that would actually be way cool.....

poor Clare has to face off against her beloved Teresa.....

soooo cool..... love the idea.....

(too bad Clare took Teresa's head inside her...err this sounds gross...but you know i don't mean it like that, lol)

if Clare hadn't taken Teresa's head inside her, then the Organization could maybe have somehow brought Teresa back to life as their "final boss" for Clare to fight against, instead of possibly Raki... Teresa would be sooo much cooler then Raki as a "final boss".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just read about the other stuff in previous posts:

Clare:

yomas don't eat her ("brother"-yoma possibly rapes her and the next yoma uses her as its "toy" at least physically abusing her and reasonably probably sexually too, considering her previous yoma encounter of being possibly raped)

*we don't know if the rape already occurred or was about to, which then the claymore (i really wanna know which claymore it was that saved clare) appeared and killed the yoma

*maybe Clare tastes bad (the opposite of Raki, lol). Also, awakened Ophelia really didn't like Clare's flesh when she bite her arm. Maybe this is just because Clare is a Half Awaken (much more yoma then human) or maybe there's something special-different about Clare that makes her uber bad tasting...

*maybe there's something special about Clare, like she is able to reproduce with them.....

Raki:

yomas find him delicious. I'm not sure if this means anything extra special or not about raki that causes him to be delicious.

*we know that humans are yummy for yomas. the less human (more yoma) the less yummy. So maybe Raki is just a really pure human which is why he tastes so good... or he's special in some kind of way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can anyone or does anyone know or can tell what claymore or symbol the one has that saves Clare from her "brother"-yoma that had just raped her or was about to ?

any chance that:

Clare is the child of Claymores? and the Claymore that saved her was her mother?

I don't think that the Claymore which saved her, was Rafaela, but that be so cool, if Rafaela was Clare's mother. So that's what the connection is between Rafaela and Clare.... lol.... unfortunately, this probably ain't so... lol

Last edited by HegemonKhan; 2009-11-28 at 14:18.
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Old 2009-11-28, 15:58   Link #172
Vantek
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Quote:
any chance that:

Clare is the child of Claymores? and the Claymore that saved her was her mother?
Not a chance IMO. AFAIK, Claymores are "infected" at a young age, and I highly assume they become sterile as a result. And I really feel this would go against everything Claymores are depicted as.
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Old 2009-11-28, 19:43   Link #173
irvinethearcher
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My favourite scene:
If i was only faster, faster, F-A-S-T-E-R!

Damn, this was one of the best scenes i have ever seen or read!
Awesome!
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Old 2009-11-28, 21:50   Link #174
HegemonKhan
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same scene (Clare awakening her legs and saving Miria from being decapitated by Rigardo, cutting off Rigardo's arm instead) :

Clare: "Why is my body not keeping up with my mind...If only I were faster, Flora and Jean wouldn't be dead. If only I were more. If only i was more. Moreto! Moreto! Moretoooo!!!!!!!"

this is the best example of when a Claymore is realizing the limits of their human body and switch (awaken) to their yoma body which has no limits.
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Old 2009-11-29, 19:10   Link #175
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I love how Clare, Miria , and Deneva break down in piata. I thought it was done well that they all broke down for differnet reasons, but that it was basically the same thing,that people were dead, that they weren't good enough that they were failers. Deneva in particlerly struck me as before she seemed to care the least about others(Helen bieng the exception )
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Old 2009-11-30, 01:55   Link #176
Ryus
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Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
Well I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly what you are trying to say but to me the fact that someone is cold and lonely is clearly primary over the details of how she became cold and lonely. Wether someone is cold and lonely because she lost someone dear to her, or because she never had anyone dear to her, or because she was raped as a child, or because she is crippled, or because her brain chemistry is messed up... It doesn't really matter much, the most important thing is she's cold and lonely and how could she get better.
Uh... let me rephrase so you understand why I believe the details are so important.

If you meet a person that had shut themselves off from the world you won't just be able to get them to open up by being nice to them. You have to demonstrate to them you won't hurt them. However Clare and Teresa both were running from different kinds of pains. Teresa was mainly running from betrayal, when Clare was running from fear of loss and to a lesser degree rejection (Teresa seemed to enjoy it but we all know that was a facade... but Clare seemed to only have accepted the fact the fact that humans rejected her and wanted acceptance).

So if you showed Teresa you'd never leave her, she'd just run away from you... like she did Clare. However if you went up to help Teresa and only showed her acceptance and understanding she'd not necessarily treat you any differently even though that's exactly what Clare did. You see, Clare had other attributes that also caused her to be accepted by Teresa, mainly her being a child. She depended on Teresa and had also shown kinship... which was enough to convince Teresa that Clare wouldn't betray her like she was before. When Raki's youth, to Clare's point of view, seemed more about memories of the past.

Now let's look at Clare. If you convinced her that you'd never betray her she'd tell you to leave her alone (recall Jean ), sure she'd like you but that doesn't mean she'd want you join her party like Raki. However if you instead just told her how you felt about her and why (as long as it's positive enough for her, recall Yuma "I'm thankful... to you... AND MIRIA... for that plan", or something she considers dumb (recall Jean "I won't leave you... at least until I pay you back", and then Clare's response... to Jean's philosophy) she'd likely open up to you. However that still doesn't mean she'd fully open up to you because unlike Teresa she's been emotionally stunted, even Raki she hasn't fully opened up to. Well I should rephrase that... she didn't admit to how much she cared for Raki to herself until they where separated and the young girl asked Clare who Raki was to her.

So to sum up those "minor" difference add up to very different people. With very different reactions to the same situations. Sure they both have a back story that were a looking glass image of the others past but it's not even close to a perfect reflection.

Was that more clear? or less so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
Besides, how can you claim that Teresa and Clare became cold and lonely for radically different reasons? It is never explained what happened to Teresa, but the most natural assumption to me would be that she also lost her loved ones, like pretty much everyone in the entire series.
Teresa's past is listed right here... Sure there's no mention of specifics but this was all that was on Teresa's mind at the time (a.k.a. A big hint of what part of her past troubled her the most, the fact that she didn't mention a loss doesn't imply there was/wasn't one but that what was tormenting her was her current existence and the betray that lead to it).



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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Lol, I remember thinking that Teresa was the final villain.
You too! I don't feel so bad any more...
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Old 2009-11-30, 02:49   Link #177
HegemonKhan
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the only problem is:

we don't know who (what humans) that Teresa was with whom "betrayed" her or "betrayed"-turned her over to the Organization

1. was teresa simply captured-taken by the slave traders (and for whatever reason Teresa believed she could trust them), and they handed her over to the Organization.

or

2. was Teresa actually betrayed by her family or friends? (maybe due to her "cursed" black "evil" eyes?)

or

3. was Teresa actually "betrayed" by a yoma (like clare and many other claymores) in the form-guise-appearance as one of her family members or friends?

Last edited by HegemonKhan; 2009-11-30 at 03:01.
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Old 2009-11-30, 03:00   Link #178
Ryus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
the only problem is:

we don't know who (what humans) that Teresa was with whom "betrayed" her or "betrayed"-turned her over to the Organization

1. was teresa simply captured-taken by the slave traders (and for whatever reason Teresa believed she could trust them), and they handed her over to the Organization.

or

2. was Teresa actually betrayed by her family or friends? (maybe due to her "cursed" black "evil" eyes?)

or

3. was Teresa actually "betrayed" by a yoma (like clare and many other claymores) in the form-guise-appearance as one of her family members or friends?


Where did you come up with those ideas?

Slave traders and the word trust just don't go together, so we can cross #1 off your list... same goes for Yoma and the word trust (from a human girls point of view any way, unless she trusting them to eat her guts). Plus why would the yoma sell Teresa to the org and not just eat her, what the yoma gets a pardon if he brings the org a new girl . It's clearly family/friends that sold her to the org and as a human. Though I don't think it was due to her eye/hair color that they sold her to them. My bet for the motivation for them SELLING her... is financial benefit (especially after spending all the money to contract a Claymore to kill the yoma) but I could be wrong there.

Thanks! I, so, needed a laugh.

Last edited by Ryus; 2009-11-30 at 03:25. Reason: typo
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Old 2009-11-30, 03:14   Link #179
HegemonKhan
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err. i didn't ready the translated page pic you put up carefully, so ignore #3, but i'll adress it anyways...

1. well, in real life, orphaned or whatever "misfortuned" children-teens sadly often think-see their pedo sex trade pimp/rapist as a "parent" or "family" as they is all the poor child-teen has, and thus relies on them. So Teresa could have trusted the slave traders if they were the indeed the ones teresa is talking about.

though, i'd admit as Teresa is an adult remembering back to this.... if they were indeed slave traders... Claymore Teresa would kind have slaughtered them long before she ever met clare and slaughtered the bandits as we know so well.

so, they were probably family or friends. someone(s) she knew well.

2. it's possible if by "black" eyes if she means totally black eyes (SCARY!! I'd get rid of her!! SCARE THE BEEP OUTA ME!!!), but not if black as in normal human eyes with the black center-pupil.

3. i meant "Betrayal" as in: she didn't know that her "parent or sibling" is really already dead and a yoma has taken their form.

though, this goes against my fan story fic idea of Teresa having yoma (their yoki) detection powers as a human baby/child, lol.

4. you're welcome for the laugh. anytime you need another let me know, i'm sure i can cause another one, (laughs myself, see even made myself laugh, lol).
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Old 2009-11-30, 03:25   Link #180
Vantek
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Quote:
So to sum up those "minor" difference add up to very different people. With very different reactions to the same situations. Sure they both have a back story that were a looking glass image of the others past but it's not even close to a perfect reflection.

Was that more clear? or less so?
Yes, thanks! OK, I now understand what you mean. In the end, I don't agree with you, I think there is far less difference between the two than you make it out to be.

Quote:
If you convinced her that you'd never betray her she'd tell you to leave her alone, sure she'd like you but that doesn't mean she'd want you join her party like Raki. However if you instead just told her how you felt about her and why she'd likely open up to you.
To be certain that someone wouldn't betray you is the same as to be certain you mean the world to them. It's one and the same.

Quote:
unlike Teresa she's been emotionally stunted
Teresa was emotionally stunted as well.

However, I think we both now understand and recognise each other's position, so there's been progress even if we didn't change each other's mind. Thanks for the discussion!

Quote:
Teresa's past is listed right here... Sure there's no mention of specifics but this was all that was on Teresa's mind at the time (a.k.a. A big hint of what part of her past troubled her the most, the fact that she didn't mention a loss doesn't imply there was/wasn't one but that what was tormenting her was her current existence and the betray that lead to it).
Haha, sorry! I thought I had read Teresa arc in manga form but guess I must have skipped some of it... Yes, in that case there is some difference here, but in my opinion not nearly as much as you make it out to be. Maybe 10-15% :P
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