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Old 2008-02-01, 03:54   Link #61
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Of course laws aren't perfect, nor are they end-all answer to everything.
And to add something.. you will never be able to have a decent law for every thing that happens in society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
But they are set in place for a society to function, and if you can't respect it... you should find a way to change it.
You should not change all laws just to make them apply in certain special cases... if so you'ld certainly make them invalid for the broader appliance and allow possibly more misuse, since a law doesn't cover morality, and cannot cover all cases that allow the law to be applied for.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
It's the fundamental rule set in place.
See, thats the point. Such a thing doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Anarchism never works.
A police state neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Criminal activity, the type that's harmful to the society, cannot be justified. PERIOD. That's the end of my argument.
Now excuse me, I have an appointment to go rob a bank.
May, I ask under which moral/humanitarian pretext you are going to justify your act of robbing the bank?

The end of your argument... we will see
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Old 2008-02-01, 03:54   Link #62
Ziv
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I will possibly make a long reply to Ledgem later on. But, first a few small details.Of course not. But, if a group starts with the ideology of cleaning up the world, and ignoring most of the major problems and concentrating on this one, yes, that would look not good.
They didn't start with that ideology. They started with the ideology that they should go out and pull pranks on anything stupid enough to warrant their interest, and then laugh about it. After they got information about Scientology, they started getting serious opinions about it and their mindless pranks evolved to serious protesting. What hasn't changed is that it's still an anarchistic mob directed by the will of the collective. It has nothing to do with an ideology, it has to do with shared views and interests of its individual members.
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Old 2008-02-01, 04:16   Link #63
panzerfan
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I think I should apologize for alleging aohige trying to push a moral onto a group.

By the way, found something really disturbing.
http://www.blogscientology.com/
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Old 2008-02-01, 05:25   Link #64
WanderingKnight
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aohige, if you still believe Anonymous is nothing more than a walking mass of memes composed by 13 year olds, I'd beg you to reconsider. If you really want to criticize them, at least look for some goddamn information. The group known as "Anonymous" is no longer the same as before--they have been joined by a lot of people, many of whom have never even been to 4chan before. You're just basing yourself on what you think Anonymous is and not what they have become in these last days. They are planning peaceful protesting--picketing doesn't mean breaking the laws. Some still want to DDoS the CoS' websites, but they're few--probably the remnants of what Anonymous used to be. You're thinking under the assumption that, no matter what they do, Anonymous will break the law... that is not correct, but you would know it if you had taken the time to visit the Project Chanology website.
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Old 2008-02-01, 10:21   Link #65
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
aohige, if you still believe Anonymous is nothing more than a walking mass of memes composed by 13 year olds, I'd beg you to reconsider. If you really want to criticize them, at least look for some goddamn information. The group known as "Anonymous" is no longer the same as before--they have been joined by a lot of people, many of whom have never even been to 4chan before. You're just basing yourself on what you think Anonymous is and not what they have become in these last days. They are planning peaceful protesting--picketing doesn't mean breaking the laws. Some still want to DDoS the CoS' websites, but they're few--probably the remnants of what Anonymous used to be. You're thinking under the assumption that, no matter what they do, Anonymous will break the law... that is not correct, but you would know it if you had taken the time to visit the Project Chanology website.
Oh? I thought we were not allowed to "put face" on Anonymous?
Which I don't agree, but that seems to be exactly what you're doing here.
You sound like supporters of some actor that got caught with his pants down (and nose stuck in a straw), went to rehab, and matter of days "I'm clean! I'm redeemed!".

Masses of people don't change in matter of few days, especially not ones moved by a mob mentality.
If they do, and get some social advancement, then good for them. But it's way too early to prejudge them.
Doing something bad, then few days later coming to say I'm sorry is one thing. But without even taking punishment, DEMANDING that others change impression of them is absolutely rediculous.

Do I forgive a serial killer because he suddenly broke down and cried a few days later? No. Time is needed, young man. And no, I will not go hang out with your friends to "find out", as I despise them. If they do change, and make the world known in the future, that's another story.
In other words "not good enough, you do not change impression in matter of days, it takes months, years." Cause some changes to redeem yourself, and we will talk about reevaluating your impression later. Otherwise, "WAAAAAAA THEY ARE MEAN TO ME BECAUSE I DID BAD THINGS WAAAAA" is a childish whining. Rome isn't built in a day, and neither is reconstruction of social impression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
See, thats the point. Such a thing doesn't exist.
Sure it does. Otherwise, we would be breaking the law in daily basis, just because we "feel" like it.
That's how a country falls to high crime rate.

I noticed that it's deeply rooted in modern American culture to show outright disrespect for the authority, and law enforcement.
Even the media and entertainment cashes in on this thinking.
No wonder they have insanly higher crime rate per population than Japan.
Although the majority of people are law-abiding citizen, the number of people who have no regards for the law is outrageously high in US compared to Japan. This is both good and bad, as you should never 100% trust the authority. Especially in a democractic state where changes can be made by the people. However, you should maintain a general respect to follow the laws everyday, and not have total distaste for everything legal. (which, unfortunately, is rampant among youth)

That's why respecting the law is fundamental principal of a society to function.
I mean, how the heck can you deny this? Sure, there are occasional exception to be made, but the basis should be this.
Exceptions are just that, EXCEPTION.

I'm sick and tired of crooks dong social harm, and then turn around and blame the society and everything else but themselves.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not an advocate of media censorship. Those crime-glorifying movies and what not plays in other countries too, but majority of people have a clear cut view of reality and fantasy. Unfortunately, many youth in America does not seem to have this perception, and easily swayed by fiction. I do not believe this is the fault of the media, although they are somewhat responsible, but more in modern day parents educating their child from early ages on how to decide morality for themselves.

Then again, Japan has jerks in Newsoku called VIPPER that does similar things, so this type of mobs can spawn anywhere. Unfortunately.
And just like the Anonymous, VIPPERS sometiems act upon what they believe to be doing something "right" in their mind, but not caring for what means they take to attack. Very sad, indeed.

Quote:
May, I ask under which moral/humanitarian pretext you are going to justify your act of robbing the bank?
Oh, I don't know... because I feel like it, and I don't agree that there should be walls between me and OMGLOTZOFCASH.
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Last edited by aohige; 2008-02-01 at 10:56.
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Old 2008-02-01, 11:09   Link #66
Reckoner
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Don't mind me for not wanting to read every post, but Scientology is cult and I feel sorry for anyone who gets involved. I actually know some scientologists and they are really $%(ed up in the head. Any protest against it I fully back them up.
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Old 2008-02-01, 13:19   Link #67
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
I noticed that it's deeply rooted in modern American culture to show outright disrespect for the authority, and law enforcement.
Even the media and entertainment cashes in on this thinking.
No wonder they have insanly higher crime rate per population than Japan.
Although the majority of people are law-abiding citizen, the number of people who have no regards for the law is outrageously high in US compared to Japan. This is both good and bad, as you should never 100% trust the authority. Especially in a democractic state where changes can be made by the people. However, you should maintain a general respect to follow the laws everyday, and not have total distaste for everything legal. (which, unfortunately, is rampant among youth)
...
Which is also possible when you use morality. Choose your actions in a way as if it could serve as a basis for a law. Or more simplified, do as you would be done by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
That's why respecting the law is fundamental principal of a society to function.
I mean, how the heck can you deny this?
...
I think you want the right thing, but forget that a law is not bound to moral standards. There are laws in every brutal dictatorship, would you advice the citizens in such dictatorships to abide these laws in order to keep the status quo?

Laws depend on the morality of those who made them, since laws are made by humans, they are subject to errors as every other human made thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
... Sure, there are occasional exception to be made, but the basis should be this.
Exceptions are just that, EXCEPTION.
...
Maybe in the democratic Japan you are living today. But you need not generalize and claim this is a universal principle for everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
I'm sick and tired of crooks dong social harm, and then turn around and blame the society and everything else but themselves.
...
I don't know who you mean here, but in general this has nothing to do with higher ethics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
EDIT: BTW, I'm not an advocate of media censorship. Those crime-glorifying movies and what not plays in other countries too, but majority of people have a clear cut view of reality and fantasy. Unfortunately, many youth in America does not seem to have this perception, and easily swayed by fiction. I do not believe this is the fault of the media, although they are somewhat responsible, but more in modern day parents educating their child from early ages on how to decide morality for themselves.
...
Of course, but they usually use a low stage of morality (usually not humanitarian).
If you like to read on this topic I'ld suggest this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlber...al_development


Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
Then again, Japan has jerks in Newsoku called VIPPER that does similar things, so this type of mobs can spawn anywhere. Unfortunately.
And just like the Anonymous, VIPPERS sometiems act upon what they believe to be doing something "right" in their mind, but not caring for what means they take to attack. Very sad, indeed.
...
Well, I cannot give you a statement for that, since I do not know who VIPPERS are and what exactly they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
Oh, I don't know... because I feel like it, and I don't agree that there should be walls between me and OMGLOTZOFCASH.
...
Would you want that everyone robs a bank? That is the question you should ask if you want to apply humanitarian ethics based moral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
Sure it does. Otherwise, we would be breaking the law in daily basis, just because we "feel" like it.
That's how a country falls to high crime rate.
...
Fundamental rules are as unimmunised for errors as any human made thing. There is no such law that applies always and in every situation. If rules were that perfect, there would be no need for judges or lawyers (and in some countries the jury).
Laws are not always just, that is a very important point you need to consider.

Of course I am not saying, that just laws should not be followed. If the laws work within the scope of humanitarian ethics, then there is no need to break them, thus one should follow them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
...
Once you break the law, you should be facing the appropriate consequence by legal terms.
That is the basis of any functioning society, amirite?
...
You are free to insistence on your oppinion, after reading this. If more people where not so law abiding, things could have been different.

Last edited by Jinto; 2008-02-01 at 14:53.
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Old 2008-02-01, 14:42   Link #68
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Masses of people don't change in matter of few days, especially not ones moved by a mob mentality.
If they do, and get some social advancement, then good for them. But it's way too early to prejudge them.
Doing something bad, then few days later coming to say I'm sorry is one thing. But without even taking punishment, DEMANDING that others change impression of them is absolutely rediculous.
You don't seem to be understanding... I'm not saying that the original members of Anonymous have changed their mind, I'm saying that the people forming them, in a vast majority, are not the same. People such as myself, who are repulsed by the *chans, but that find the idea of a collective anonymity a useful tool in situations like this. Anonymous, due to their intrinsic characteristics, is not a group which can be delimited properly. And after the huge amount of propaganda they've had in these weeks, lots and lots of people have joined them... I repeat, people such as myself, who aren't part of the *chan mentality.
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Old 2008-02-01, 15:17   Link #69
aohige
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@Jinto Lin
Sorry, I'm not going t respond to your reply in this debate anymore.
You're taking a very simple topic, and needlessly complicating it, to the point of incomprehension.
My point is, as a general principal, a citizen living in a country should abide by the local laws. You keep bringing up morality as a measurement to follow the laws and such, well, that has nothing to do with my point. None.
You wanna throw more Zen junk, go ahead. But don't expect me to reply. I smell bucket full of dungs in which I have no intention of rolling around in.
And the bank robbing thing was a joke. a JOKE. You know what that is? I suppose not.
Its intent was to bring some humor into the topic, to balance out the argument.
So excuse me if I sound aggressive here, I already tried to ease it with humor, but you don't seem to care for it.

Oh, and I don't need your permission to have my own opinion, thank you very much.

@WanderingKnight
Well, of course not. And like I said in the previous post, the anonymousity certainly have its place.
Anonymously speaking out opinions is perfectly fine. Anonymously commiting a crime is a diffrent story.

You're simply bothered because you also post as an Anonymous, yet you don't want to be lumped together with "those other harmful Anonymous", is that what it is? Well, that's certainly understandable, and I don't mean every Anonymous is a sack full of shit. Like I said earlier, I simply don't agree about "not putting face on Anonymous". It's a cheap excuse they use to fall back on, when their members do something bad. Once you involve yourself in a group of people, however random and anonymous it is, you're still associating yourself with that group's actions. Even if it's not every member's actions.
Like I said, it takes time to prove yourself otherwise, so do it.
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Old 2008-02-01, 15:28   Link #70
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
You're simply bothered because you also post as an Anonymous, yet you don't want to be lumped together with "those other harmful Anonymous", is that what it is?
Of course I'm part of them, because they've convinced me, through their actions, that they're not just DDoS attacks... and it has nothing to do with being lumped with them. That's a serious assumption you're making there. It has nothing to do with me, it has to do with you getting your facts not quite right. As I've said, I invite you to go to the Project Chanology website and get a little bit more informed on the matter than what Fox has to say about it.
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Old 2008-02-01, 15:36   Link #71
aohige
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Of course I'm part of them, because they've convinced me, through their actions, that they're not just DDoS attacks... and it has nothing to do with being lumped with them. That's a serious assumption you're making there. It has nothing to do with me, it has to do with you getting your facts not quite right. As I've said, I invite you to go to the Project Chanology website and get a little bit more informed on the matter than what Fox has to say about it.
Oh, please, give me a break.
I don't watch FOX, nor can I. They ARE sack full of shit, worse than pesky Anonymous ever can be.


.....But hey, The Simpsons is great!


Btw, what "facts" are you talking about?
That I don't like Anonymous because of their immature activities?
That's not a fact, that's an opinion. That I don't like people who anonymously do stupid crap like DDoS attacks, and hide behind their anonymousity? What fact are you talking about there? "The fact is, I'm an Anonymous but not the same as those guys who were involved in DDoS"? Then you shouldn't care what I think.
Again, just what IS your point? ME WANT LUV FROM AOHIGE? Surely that's not the point here.
You're too old for me to give that anyways... *cough* nothing.
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Old 2008-02-01, 16:19   Link #72
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
That's not a fact, that's an opinion. That I don't like people who anonymously do stupid crap like DDoS attacks, and hide behind their anonymousity? What fact are you talking about there? "The fact is, I'm an Anonymous but not the same as those guys who were involved in DDoS"? Then you shouldn't care what I think.
Again, just what IS your point? ME WANT LUV FROM AOHIGE? Surely that's not the point here.
You're too old for me to give that anyways... *cough* nothing.
Eh... well, I really don't know where you're going with your personal assumptions. Seriously. It doesn't make you look more mature than what you're accusing Anonymous to be. If I go to the bottom of it, of course I don't care about your opinion, since it doesn't directly affect me... but since we're all in this discussion thread (and you posted in it!), we might as well do some actual discussion, don't you think? Debates are not just an interchange of opinions, or they wouldn't matter at all.

The thing is, you are basing your opinion on a fact, which is that, in the beginning of these events, Anonymous did attack the CoS' websites. You're welcome to keep your opinion of Anonymous based on the facts evident in the early stages of these event... but, once more, I'd beg you to look and get a bit of information on what's currently going on, after the DDoS attack have been mostly ruled out by Anonymous.

If you don't want to check what's happening, you're of course welcome to keep your opinion... but I'm forced to help you take notice of how has the situation been developing
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Old 2008-02-01, 16:23   Link #73
aohige
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
but, once more, I'd beg you to look and get a bit of information on what's currently going on, after the DDoS attack have been mostly ruled out by Anonymous.
Yes, you have said that multiple times.
And I have given a clear answer to that, which obviously did not convey.

Oh, and I'm not interested in a debate to begin with.
Discussion =/= debate. I do not wish to "debate" on my personal perception of Anonymous, based on what they have been doing for years.
You accuse me of being "immature" because I didn't change that view due to LAST FEW DAYS of development, seen from your side of view? Right.
You're starting to personally attack people in defence of Anonymous? I made no personal attacks on them, after all, they are "anonymous" no?
Your post #64 started this discussion with a flamebaiterish remark, so I don't think we want to get into "maturrity" issue here.

I'm going to end this discussion here and now.
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Old 2008-02-01, 16:32   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Oh, please, give me a break.
I don't watch FOX, nor can I. They ARE sack full of shit, worse than pesky Anonymous ever can be.
You make a really great point. They, (the owner level and the News division, at the least) are indeed like that...
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Old 2008-02-01, 16:33   Link #75
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Quote:
Discussion =/= debate. I do not wish to "debate" on my personal perception of Anonymous, based on what they have been doing for years.
Quote:
You accuse me of being "immature" because I didn't change that view due to LAST FEW DAYS of development, seen from your side of view? Right.
Well... no. I said your way of making personal assumptions about me looked immature, that's all.

Of course, you never listened to me on the point (see bold) that many, many people have joined them, forming now a majority who has never even gone to a *chan. As I said, you're welcome to keep your opinion of them, BUT, I'd also like you to consider the (slight!) possibility that the people behind this movement aren't exactly the same as the ones who were behind what Anonymous has been doing before. That's it, no more, no less.

PS:
Quote:
You make a really great point. They, (the owner level and the News division, at the least) are indeed like that...
The Fox sentence was a joke. Some time ago, they did a piece on Anonymous, calling them "hackers on steroids" among other sensationalist bullshit (plus they used a video of an exploding van as "footage"!). When saying Fox, I was actually talking about the mainstream media in general.
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Old 2008-02-01, 16:41   Link #76
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well... no. I said your way of making personal assumptions about me looked immature, that's all.
Ah, well, there's a misunderstanding. I thought you meant about making assumptions on Anonymous, which I have every reason to.
Only assumption I have of you (that I can even make) is that you joined Anonymous for the cause of good, and do not want to be viewed the same as those who commited the actions before. The later half of that sentence was a JOKE, not intended to make a real vulgar assumption. I'll apologize if that hurt your feelings.

I can still make immature jokes right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Your post #64 started this discussion with a flamebaiterish remark, so I don't think we want to get into "maturrity" issue here.
I posted rather aggressively because of that remark, and I should really hold off doing so. Let's not escalate this anymore, both me and you.

I'm ending discussion, since I think I've made my stance clear.
You say I should change my views of them because you claim there are better people in Anonymous doing better activities.
I say fine, but it will take time to prove yourselves. Don't demand immediate compliment or change of impression.

The key here is, if you think you're doing something good... your activities will eventually prove themselves.
Don't demand others to change their views, do it through actions and results. be patient.
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Old 2008-02-01, 19:04   Link #77
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eeech, the ammount of ignorance on this subject so far is just sad. No offence, but do a bit of reading before you start preaching.
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Old 2008-02-01, 19:56   Link #78
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I agree with aohige to a certain extent, and I also share his view of what Anonymous has been used for in the past. Disrupting people's lives even slightly and hiding behind anonymity is cowardly, and if it isn't criminal by the law, it's criminal by moral and ethical standards. I've spent most of my time in this thread attempting to correct views of what Anonymous is in the Anonymous vs. CoS arena, but aohige's points can only be agreed with. The people who participate in Anonymous for their own amusement, shutting down websites and such - many of those people have become bored and stopped participating. Or, if they are still participating, I'm fairly certain that they're just waiting for this all to be over. For them, what Anonymous does next will probably be more or less the same as they've been doing before.

Anonymous as a collective has currently changed by quite a bit. The people participating within the group are different, and the group as a whole has very different goals and functions than it did previously. It's more mature now, but the immature elements that aohige despises (and admittedly, I despise as well) are still there. Every now and then I see an IP or webpage posted, and the intent to harass or take it down is made clear. They're not that common, and frequently other voices respond to the request saying to just ignore it and stay focused on the activities with CoS.

However, the fact that people (some more than others) derive pleasure from being able to take advantage of others or play tricks without consequence is nothing new. In my father's time, it was children climbing up trees, hiding in the foliage, and shooting peas at people passing by. Now it's sitting behind a computer screen and pulling a prank on someone hundreds of miles away. It's immature behavior, and it can cause more harm than people realize, especially in such large numbers. It's also not right. It's all fun and games until you're the one being picked on.

Despite that, I support what the collective currently calling itself Anonymous is striving toward now. I'd hope that this current wave would purify the collective and prevent people from using their numbers and anonymity to harass others, but history shows that it's not a new behavior - just a new means of going about the same business.
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Old 2008-02-01, 20:53   Link #79
aohige
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@Ledgem
And I hope so too.
If that does happen, then the impression they give will change in time.
But image doesn't change that fast. It's like the proverb... first impression are the most lasting.
And in this case, it's the first, second, and third impression. Probably more.
Damage is quite deep.
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Old 2008-02-01, 21:57   Link #80
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
@Jinto Lin
Sorry, I'm not going t respond to your reply in this debate anymore.
Your choice, but you actually have no counter argument, therefore you are using polemic speach now. Your use of discussion stoppers is really impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You're taking a very simple topic, and needlessly complicating it, to the point of incomprehension.
If the world could easily be divided in right or wrong, I would accept that. But the world is complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
My point is, as a general principal, a citizen living in a country should abide by the local laws. You keep bringing up morality as a measurement to follow the laws and such, well, that has nothing to do with my point. None.
From that statement I can conclude you are acting based on the 4th stage morality, which is fine. But if you read the wikipedia articles I posted, you'ld know that this is not the highest stage of morality (and why).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You wanna throw more Zen junk, go ahead. But don't expect me to reply. I smell bucket full of dungs in which I have no intention of rolling around in.
polemics again... this argument proves nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
And the bank robbing thing was a joke. a JOKE. You know what that is? I suppose not.
Of course it was a joke, but a completely stupid and unrelated one, that is what I wanted to show you. Since it was exactly what I did not intend to say. But I assume you like polemics like this straw man argument that was meant as a joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Its intent was to bring some humor into the topic, to balance out the argument.
So excuse me if I sound aggressive here, I already tried to ease it with humor, but you don't seem to care for it.
Of course and coincidently it is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Oh, and I don't need your permission to have my own opinion, thank you very much.
Well I knew that without you telling me. Did I ever ordered you to adopt my POV, or is this just another excercise of polemic?

If I want to oppose your generalizations, I do it.
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