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Old 2004-12-22, 12:41   Link #41
Mr_Paper
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I must say, if you didn't understand the last few episodes of Evangelion, then you've really missed the point of the entire series.

The last few episodes serve to examplify and highlight the deep psychological and philosophical undertones of the entire series. The difference between them and the rest of the series is that in those episodes the facade of the 'robot adventure/action' show was dropped and the series proceeded to smack an unsuspecting audience with concepts that were (and still are), frankly, too complex for them to understand. Not to say the viewers were dumb, but your average viewer of Evangelion, those who watch it for the robot fights, aren't the most mentally suited for comtemplating the nature of existance or the concept and impact of the 'self.' All the characters fit textbook examples of psychological models, which, unless one's familar with the models, is completely uncomprehensible. This is the reason for the confusion resulting from the series' end, it wasn't due to budget or time but general complexity.

Similarly, this is why so many people prefer RahXephon for it's dumbed down and overly simplified version of the same elements of the Evangelion plot. It didn't attempt to take the introspective and analytical route of Evangelion, which resulted in far less confusion amoung fans.

As for the movies, well, they are Anno's way of telling the whining fanboys to "STFU!" When the people who couldn't understand the ending started complaining left and right, it made major headaches for Anno and everyone associated with the show. At conventions and panels when people asked/complained about it he told them "Too bad!" or "Deal with it!" The movies were made to shut them up, an end to which they served quite well. They provided the action filled, flashy and dumbed down ending that most people wanted when the original ending proved too much for them.

Now, for the three questions:

1) I'll give the simplified explaination; the last episodes are used to illustrate the concept of the 'self.' They depict the Shinji recognizing his current self, his dissillusion with his current self, his abandonment of his self and his mental journey (as it were) towards discovering the ties between the concept of the 'self' and nature and limitations of material existance. It then concludes with his acceptance of his self and the conclusion that he wishes to be himself in a material world with others.

2) They're appluading him for his acceptance of his 'self' and his decision to exist in a world with others.

3) Not really, they're most action fanservice. The movies serve to compress more than an hour of introspective analysis into a 5 minute span and wrap that in an hour of action sequences.
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Old 2004-12-22, 13:07   Link #42
7thMethuselah
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Well spoken Mr.Paper (+rep),

Indeed the original episode 25/26 show us what EVA is all about : Shinji and his struggle with himself. Shinji doubts himself all the time. In essence he's afraid of what others think of him, how they view, what they feel towards him. He tries to run away from these by hiding (he hides in several ways in the anime, by physically running away, by mindlessly following orders, etc...). EVA is more or less trying to show the consequences of individuality, and this confronted with one common 'Self'

I always understood AT Fields in EVA to be the boundaries of the 'self'. In that way the battles between EVA and the angels are actually battles of Shinji (and others) against his own 'Self' and others' 'Self'.

The choice which Shinji faces at the end is actually if he wants to keep individuality or wants to submerge in one common 'individuality' (in essence the whole humanity having but a single individuality.
Shinji has to choose if the good sides of individuality are worth the bad sides. By becoming an induvidual you gain something but you lose the other's thoughts. It's not always an easy path. Basically in many episodes of the anime, Shinji is following the easier path of conformity, in essence fitting in, being what everyone wants him to, avoiding confrontation.

I think I didn't make alot of sense in this post, I more or less get the point on EVA but is is rather hard to explain.
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Old 2004-12-22, 19:19   Link #43
pyu
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Mr Paper, the criticism for Rahxephon was a tad harsh.

I personally thought Rahxephon turned out to be a much more balanced anime series while exploring the some of the same issues that Evangelion brought to the table (Questions of self, existensionalism, reality, etc).

Of course, even it required a movie and some director's notes to bring a close to everything.

Perhaps the only thing it says about these directors is that they should strive to explore these issues in a manner using more familiar symbols and themes. You might call it dumbing it down, but unfortunately, most people are not philosophers. Taking these old philosophical issues and smacking people in the face using giant Reis isn't going to earn you points.

I thought the Matrix (snigger all you want.. ) managed to touch on these philosophical issues pretty well without alienating viewers immediately.

It's all about balance...
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Old 2004-12-22, 19:51   Link #44
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I have to say, it's really easy to read too deeply into Eva. There are plenty of places where you can say "oh, this is an allegory for this" or "they were trying to introduce this concept", and yes, there's certainly references to this and that and the other, but frankly I'm left with a conviction that these were not necessarily things that the series intended. There's -obviously- a lot of stuff that was referenced on the grounds of atmospherics only.

The ending of Eva, from any kind of narrative standpoint, is flawed. It goes way beyond "oh, well, there remain many unanswered questions." Hell, I expect unanswered questions. But even if, intellectually, I can appreciate the examination of the concept of the self, the method they used to explore it was not merely poorly explained; it just WASN'T explained. It's like watching an episode of Frazier and then coming back from a commercial break and being thrust into a psychological drama with reality itself in abeyance. Not that the latter isn't interesting, but what the hell? It's NOT what you were watching and the writers didn't even have the respect for the viewer to hand-wave an explanation. I mean, -I- can come up with one, sure, but that's not my job! (Well, okay, I suppose that it IS my job nowadays, but you know what I mean.)

So why, in a show that certainly had a decent amount of eye-popping visuals, did they neglect the all-important transition from reality to self-examination? Well, because they were broke. ;p It's nice to say "well, the final episodes could be depicted the way they were because the philosophical point was more important than the visuals," but that's also a way of saying "well, we couldn't do anything but stills, so we had to cook up something that let us get away with nothing but stills."

Even so, if you cut it some slack, it's still a good show. They had something to say, and they said it, and it could have been done more gracefully (and, in fact, has been done more gracefully since), but it still want to places where most anime didn't go back then. I appreciate that it was a major step in blazing a trail for anime with some intellectual content. I -love- science-fiction anime, and the more serious, the better (not that I don't see the appeal of the old school of mecha anime, but it speaks to a different part of me.) Because of Eva's commercial success, there's been a tremendous quantity of good SF anime released in the last few years, which keeps me muy happy.
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Old 2004-12-22, 23:09   Link #45
ChoBaka
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Well said, MrPaper and AvatarADV. While the ending of Evangelion definitely was more complex and philosophical than the average anime fan could understand, it's also true that the crappiness with which it was presented was due to budgetary constraints.
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Old 2004-12-22, 23:16   Link #46
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Nah....EVA is no more difficult than most other "thinker's anime" out there. I think most people with average intelligence or above can understand EVA. (Come on now, it's not like it's a PHI dissertaion; no matter how many allusions they try to pull, the "conflict" for Shinji has been explored in other media and disciplines countless times.) Some viewers may disagree with some other viewers, and some viewers may not have the time or choose not to take out 5 hours of their productive life to ponder what EVA really is about, and that's just natural.

Personally, I feel the TV ending (ep. 25-26) lacks the punch that the End of Eva delivered. A story that begins with mass carnage should end with mass carnage, brings a little closure, IMO.
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Old 2004-12-22, 23:40   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
As for the movies, well, they are Anno's way of telling the whining fanboys to "STFU!" When the people who couldn't understand the ending started complaining left and right, it made major headaches for Anno and everyone associated with the show. At conventions and panels when people asked/complained about it he told them "Too bad!" or "Deal with it!" The movies were made to shut them up, an end to which they served quite well. They provided the action filled, flashy and dumbed down ending that most people wanted when the original ending proved too much for them.
Oh come on now, the situation was more complex than that. Despite spiteful remarks he had made eariler, it was never made clear that Anno was outright opposed to the theatrical version, and I see nothing in EoE that gives that impression.

Anno didn't half-ass the film by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I thought he did a better job of exploring the psychological status of each character and bringing to them a sense of finality in the film than he ever did in the series. The most notable reason being that the film actually focused on all of the characters, unlike the TV ending which basically ignored every cast member apart from Shinji.

The "reunion" with her mother in the film highlighted Asuka's self-inflicted isolation better than the endless repetition of the TV ending did, Rei's reluctant sense of liberation was clearer and more significant, and more was said about the entire psychological basis of Gendo's character in about three lines of the film than was ever said in the entire series, let alone the ending where he was barely given an objective analysis from the perspectives of Rei and Shinji. Not to mention that Shinji's character arc is brought to a much more believeable "acceptance of life" in the film rather than the totally uncharacteristic "big, happy change" he experiences in the TV ending. In fact, I think Misato was the only character that benefitted more from the TV ending than the movie ending, but I'm from the camp that thinks you need to watch both versions to get the most out of it, and would rather enjoy both endings than get wound up in petty elitist squabbles about which one is better based on how few people are able to appreciate or understand it.

Just because EoE was done without the concept of dropping the narrative doesn't mean its nature, psychological or otherwise, was "dumbed down".
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Old 2006-04-11, 00:01   Link #48
toss
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The movies were made to shut them up, an end to which they served quite well. They provided the action filled, flashy and dumbed down ending that most people wanted when the original ending proved too much for them.
I disagree about the movie being a dumbed down version of episodes 25-26. The main complaints I had about the anime ending is that it focuses solely of Shinji's rejection of an artificial world in which he or no one is hurt. His final lines are "I am worth living here!" which I think means he finally learns he can live life in the real world without always fearing hurt. As he exclaims these lines the fake stage around him collapses symbolizing his rejection of his old aloof and self loathing nature. Yes I think its a beautiful ending, but there are so many loose ends left untied! What happens to Asuka? What was Gendo ulterior motive? What happens to everyone else?!?

The movie answers most of these nagging questions left by the anime. Not only that, I also believe that Shinji doesn't reach the same enlightment as he does at the end of the anime nor does he reach it in the same manner. The anime culminates with Shinji realizing that he can learn to love himself, learn to open up to and love others, and complete his long metamorphosis. This very instances is marked with the shattering of the mental stage. In the movie however, Shinji only replies "Maybe its okay to be hurt, I want to live" in reply to his mother's question "Is that really okay? You might be hurt again." And once he utters those words he slowly drifts away from his cognitive mother and emerges from the sea of LCL into reality. Clearly theres a difference from the anime. The anime ends with Shinji making a shattering entry into a bright blue world being congratulated by his friends and family. (Whether this world is still false, reality, or merely symbolic of his enlightment is up to the viewer to decide. I believe its merely symbolic.) The movie ends with Shinji waking up to see and endless red ocean under a dark starry sky. If thats not enough would the Shinji present at the end of the anime roll over and start choking a seemingly lifeless Asuka with an empty stare?
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Old 2006-04-12, 08:27   Link #49
Mr_Paper
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My dislike of people digging up posts made almost 18 months ago, where all subsequent posts and explainations there-of have been lost, is truly greater than words can describe.

However, yes, I still do view the movie as dumbed down especially in regards to Shinji's realization. It lacked any traces of deep and meaningful symbolism or thought (standing in a crowd of people, 'where does reality end and the dream begin?' and suddenly he's a whole person) when compared to the self-realization which the TV ending presented. You can believe what you wish, but I don't view 5 minutes half-baked and poorly thoughtout clips equal to or greater than 50 minutes of carefully planned and executed chracter driven development. I would have rathered 12 more episodes of Instrumentality over the movies, but I've since settled for Komm Suesser Tod.

That is what I was refering to when I said it was dumbed down, that is what was lost in the 'Crash.'

Last edited by Mr_Paper; 2006-04-12 at 19:29.
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Old 2006-04-12, 09:31   Link #50
Jaden
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Topic necromancy FTW...
While I don't think the anime ending was utter nonsense, it was still disappointing, definately unfit to be the pinnacle of such a great series.
It showed Shinji's development, but left most of the other characters and loose ties. It could also have had a real script and story like the movie had. And it could have been more visually pleasing. Instead, it's just a bloody interrogation.
It was like watching a great movie, then have it blackout near the end and have some narrator come spoil the ending for you.
Obviously people, intellectual or not, were disappointed with such an ending...and are glad to have the movie.
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Old 2006-04-12, 19:41   Link #51
NoSanninWa
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Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
but I don't view 5 minutes half-baked and poorly thoughtout clips equal to or greater than 50 minutes of carefully planned and executed chracter driven development. I
But I really loved the tiny clips of a movie theater full of people who are looking like they are thinking, "WTF is going on?!" That is so clearly the audience watching this movie, that I could't help cracking up when I saw it.

Aside from that comedy value, episodes 25-26 were clearly superior in that respect. Truly both the TV ending and the movie have to both be watched in order to appreciate the true ending of Evangelion. The movie cannot be viewed as a replacement and the TV ending is incomplete. Together the form a whole.
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Old 2006-07-11, 02:42   Link #52
Ziv
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I must say I saw episodes 25-26 as a satisfactory and happy ending to the show. The movie, however, made no sense at all. I have no idea how the events that happened relate to anything, or were explained by anything. perhaps I just need to read more =P

Last edited by Ziv; 2006-07-11 at 03:02.
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Old 2006-09-13, 20:48   Link #53
napun_nom39
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Question end of evangelion... what?

ok so, i kinda understand the story of Evangelion but when i saw the movie it threw me off a little... what is Rei exactly, and at the end... y did shinji choke asuka?

i loved the story of the series and 25-26 were "original" peices of work so i respect the creators style in doing it like that.. but its so confusing ...
anyway... i wonder if anyone can explain my question about rei and shinjis choke scene.
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Old 2006-09-14, 23:47   Link #54
mangasuki
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Quote:
i wonder if anyone can explain my question about rei and shinjis choke scene.
(sorry,I'm poor at english. )

[About shinjis choke scene]
It's a metaphor of the world which has a pain of others.
Shinji chose that separated body and heart, in spite of he could choose a fusion world that has a no pain of others.
Maybe director Annno want to say shinji will regret about his choice.

[About Rei]
Her soul is Lilis's soul, and her body is a clone of Shinji's mam.
(maybe,I can't remember well.)
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Old 2006-09-28, 06:12   Link #55
jtstellar
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"i wonder if anyone can explain my question about rei and shinjis choke scene"

yes Rei's soul = Lilis' and she took the Adam cells from commander Ikari's arm before merging back into her own body (Lilis).. That's why the gay dude (the last angel.. dunno his name in english) is able to make appearence during 3rd impact.. I think that guy posesses adam's soul and a random clone body just like Rei's. Adam's soul was absorbed by Lilis' body when Shinji killed the soul container (the last angel) in the LCL water. That would explain why there is a voice welcoming Rei's return to Lilis' body as Rei is doing so, and the reason that the last angel could easily pilot the EVAs (they were all clones of the original Adam, the last angel himself whose very soul belongs to Adam) while Rei could not. He also thanked Shinji for knocking out EVA02 because there were no other ways for him to get rid of his physical self.

Commander Ikari intended to become the chosen one himself during the 3rd impact so he could get a chance to see his wife Yui, Shinji's mother.. but Rei (Lilis) after spending much time around Shinji decided to side with Shinji during the 3rd impact. The fact that when everyone sees his own acceptable yet fake reality before they turn into LCL, commander Ikari imagines himself being killed by EVA01.. piloted by Shinji and whose inside dwells Yui's soul, seems to reflect on his willing atonement for his selfishness and bad treatment for his own son. Commander Ikari had planned this since the death of Yui.. there are bits and pieces that hint toward his betrayal throughout the series. I remember in this flashback episode his 2nd in command mentions that Ikari went missing after his wife's death and came back to the command center as a different person, and Ikari also brought with him a new plan regarding the EVA project.. a different one from what was given by SEELE.

as for the choking part.. i didn't think much about it cus i didn't really care for asuka.. but mangasuki is probably right.. who knows.. maybe shinji took in all the male souls and asuka took in all the female ones? so the "Yui" inside of her tries to comfort shinji? lol.. probably not. but ya.. I pretty much agree with the opinion that the movie is somewhat "dumbed down".. it's pretty much just a bundle of action scenes with lots of blood. I wish they could add the conflicts of Shinji among his understanding of real "self" and imagined "self" like those from ep 25, 26 in TV into the movie.. when he is up in the sky with hands pierced by the parts of the tree of life and 13 angels around him. It would be great to see him thinking about all his internal conflicts and sorting out his thoughts while the humanity below him suffer.. it'll be such a picture. why the separation? man..
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Old 2006-09-28, 06:39   Link #56
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I would like to ask a question too.. the appearence of Rei on the street during the first episode when Shinji first arrived Nerv and her appearing to be over the red ocean in the OVA.. are there connections between them? I don't really get what that illusion of her means. does she come out when shinji feels particularly set against reality, or what?


btw.. speaking of dumbing down.. the dub TV version edited off just a huge chunk of line depth in their voice acting.. the script's totally edited toward "commonizing" EVA into just another action anime.. it's very disappointing. The dub just does not emit the mysterious psychological "aura" at all. You guys out there who complain about eva's TV ending because it wasn't action oriented enough.. did you watch the dub or what? the voice actors also sound like they have the microphone in their mouth all the time. In japanese version the voice actors would lower their voice and do different sound effects according to the surrounding of the characters they're voice acting for. They would voice the words in different ways say when their characters are in the air ventilator crawling toward the EVA launch room as compared to when the characters are standing in the gigantic command center with all sorts of echoes, the voice actors would always do that correspondingly. But the same quality just isn't in the dub.

There is now a live action movie coming out for EVA.. i just hope these western producers were smart enough to pass up the dub.. which makes eva look like just another action anime merely with a different take on the "robots" and the "background" where the "fights" take place. I keep hearing words like "future world".. "cool looking robots that aren't gundam like but has flesh".. "nice looking futuristic city".. things like that along the line being mentioned in that chudd interview video. Those things are nice but they are merely used to soothe the process while audiences are pulled in as the series begins to step into the psychological territory. I've heard no comments on the psychological part of the anime. I'm sure the 3D stuff based on just a small corner of creativity of these wonderfully gifted japanese artists is enough to fascinate the audience.. but The last thing I want to see is them using eva just as another dumb@#$ PG-13 action movie that everyone could SO replace with some stupid disney shit, all because they fail to present the essence of this masterpice. and no it's not about the balance.. creativity is never about balance, and those who appreciate creativity therefore do not worry about balance. Or you can go watch those billionaire celebs and their movies.. their works are usually very "balanced".. they make you so happy you'd forget you had even been to the theather while having your fatass in food coma during a dinner

Last edited by jtstellar; 2006-09-28 at 06:54.
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Old 2006-09-28, 07:27   Link #57
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Just to throw something into the mix...

Quote:
The last few episodes serve to examplify and highlight the deep psychological and philosophical undertones of the entire series. The difference between them and the rest of the series is that in those episodes the facade of the 'robot adventure/action' show was dropped and the series proceeded to smack an unsuspecting audience with concepts that were (and still are), frankly, too complex for them to understand. Not to say the viewers were dumb, but your average viewer of Evangelion, those who watch it for the robot fights, aren't the most mentally suited for comtemplating the nature of existance or the concept and impact of the 'self.' All the characters fit textbook examples of psychological models, which, unless one's familar with the models, is completely uncomprehensible. This is the reason for the confusion resulting from the series' end, it wasn't due to budget or time but general complexity.
I hate to disagree with one of the major Moderators of this forum, especially one whom I respect.

But being someone who possess scans of the original script of Evangelion (reproduced in its entirety within one of the EVA art books), I have to point out that the EVA movie was the intended EVA ending.

There was meant to be a raid on NERV by an army, a lot of bad things happened. EVa mass production models, everything.

This can't be denied. The EVA movie was NOT put together as an inferior product. It was the intended product.

However, just like the Noir Anime, where the fact that they couldn't show bleeding on the TV timeslot meant the director made the assassin series more stylish than it was otherwise, Gainax turned a restriction into an opportunity.

Having their budget cut as punishment for showing a sound-only sex scene without informing the censors, Anno wasn't able to properly animate the spectacular final stand of humans killing each other in Nerv headquarters. But instead of churning out an inferior version of the original script, Anno took all the action scenes out instead, and keep the original theme intact.

I agree with almost everything you said, Mr Paper, except that bit about how Anno intended to end 25-26 of EVA the way it did. It couldn't be true, because I have the physical evidence to prove otherwise.

What did happen, is Anno did what great director do at times of diversity. He thinks outside the box. A flash of brilliance means he created something that completed the series in terms of its true theme, with no sugarcoating of mecha action. It forced everyone to either take the entire series seriously or walk away, because there was no cheesy ending, no world being saved, no explosions.

But the TV ending was still an accident, not planned. Full credit to Anno for making the right choice, of course; it must not have been easy.

I have no complaints concerning the movie; it was the other half of the ending. As good as it was to see that Shinji resolved his feelings in the TV ending, I still care about the fate of the other characters.
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Old 2006-09-28, 23:28   Link #58
jtstellar
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"What did happen, is Anno did what great director do at times of diversity. He thinks outside the box. A flash of brilliance means he created something that completed the series in terms of its true theme, with no sugarcoating of mecha action. It forced everyone to either take the entire series seriously or walk away, because there was no cheesy ending, no world being saved, no explosions.

But the TV ending was still an accident, not planned. Full credit to Anno for making the right choice, of course; it must not have been easy."


That's really unfortunate. I can only imagine how great it'll look to have the two combined into one. So the last scene in ep 26 when everyone shows up to congradulate him, it is after everyone has transormed into LCL liquid? I wish the two could be combined into one.. the movie is just too "red" for me. A temporary break inside Shinji's head from all the physical stuff would've been nice.. and then to see the impact of his decisions to earth and the rest of humanity.. instead of just seeing a round applause :\
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Old 2007-01-23, 01:06   Link #59
blahdida
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Anno was under depression while he was making the anime and the movies, seriously for a comedy anime lover the serie was cool and all but "The end of evangelian" creeped the s*** out of me. Also the whole thing is so confusing even after i read the wikipedia explanations
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Old 2007-01-25, 09:55   Link #60
Tomislav
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Originally Posted by blahdida View Post
Anno was under depression while he was making the anime and the movies, seriously for a comedy anime lover the serie was cool and all but "The end of evangelian" creeped the s*** out of me. Also the whole thing is so confusing even after i read the wikipedia explanations
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So cool to talk about Eva after so long time, thank you

I loved Eva - I must admit it promptly, with no shame - but I am not going to force you to love it as well... So:

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