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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10 28 35.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 32.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 23.75%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 5.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.25%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-02-08, 12:57   Link #101
Darklightz
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That episode was surprisingly deep.

I think a lot of people missed the metaphors here. Horo represents the past, what was. Notice how she always talks about her past and never about her plans for the future.

That's why Horo was so shaken with what Chloe said. It's basically anouncing that her time is over, wich in a way is true, seeing how trade companies and kingdoms are flourishing. Also people now pray to the god of the Church (wich we can assume is the christian god). Wich made me think, what will happen when the wolf god is no longer needed?

Wild Theory below
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-02-08, 13:08   Link #102
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Chloe is being used I bet by Medioh and that Count.
This does make sense since even Lawrence states that she needs more experience before she starts getting involved in risky deals. I simply don't understand why she's involved with the church...or for that matter why she's chasing Horo and Lawrence. I could understand she'd be jealous of Horo, but I wouldn't say it's enough to justify her aggressive actions (e.g. kidnapping etc).
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Old 2008-02-08, 13:34   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklightz View Post

Wild Theory below
Spoiler:
Thats an interesting theory i played around with idea. But Horo is quite difficult to figure out. She would never come out and say she was looking for a mate. But she did talk and cry about how lonely she was before Lawrence came along. Horo has feelings and we all want to be with someone we care about not mention the need produce offspring. Horo has lived for a long time but she has never mentioned a mate of offspring, so it safe to assume she has none. I think Horo intended to really just to return to the north which was her original home and hopefully meet one of her own kind on her travels. I dont think she was expecting an emotional connection to happen between her and Lawrence. They live in same yet two different worlds how would they make it work? I dont know but if they come to love one another im sure they could find away. But for now im expecting a bitter sweet ending. This way i wont be too upset if they dont end up together yet overjoyed if they do.
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Old 2008-02-08, 14:12   Link #104
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklightz View Post
That episode was surprisingly deep.

I think a lot of people missed the metaphors here. Horo represents the past, what was. Notice how she always talks about her past and never about her plans for the future.

That's why Horo was so shaken with what Chloe said. It's basically anouncing that her time is over, wich in a way is true, seeing how trade companies and kingdoms are flourishing. Also people now pray to the god of the Church (wich we can assume is the christian god). Wich made me think, what will happen when the wolf god is no longer needed?

Wild Theory below
Spoiler:
I would *really* love that sort of ending... lets hope the anime at least implies that sort of ending. And I hope the author provides that sort of ending in the novels->manga. One can only stand so much bittersweet or crash'n'burn endings.

I mean, *all* relationships (and the people who have them) are transient glimmers in the Big Picture but its nice when they synchronize for a while.

Rated the episode "10" for tantalizing -- their verbal flirting was shameless, the scheming manipulations and merchantile gamesmanship fun to watch, and the Horo blushed (falls over senseless). Its not clear that Chloe knows Lawrence is involved thought she's smart enough to connect the dots if she remembers Lawrence rambling about "Horo". If so, she's in 'bitter but business' mode -- people like that fall into "if I can't have him, no one can" kind of irrational mindsets.

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-02-08 at 15:59.
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Old 2008-02-08, 18:20   Link #105
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
If so, she's in 'bitter but business' mode -- people like that fall into "if I can't have him, no one can" kind of irrational mindsets.
Exactally what I was thinking

Chloe may just be the drama spark this series needs for horo and lawrence to become even closer. Nothing like some tragic hurdles to strengthen the bond ^^

The ending is hardly predictable...I would like to see a happy end but at the same time the bitter/sweet option is tempting. "horo" disappearing would break hearts and manly tears will follow.
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Old 2008-02-08, 18:38   Link #106
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The bittersweet ending just seems to likely for it to actually happen. I mean, it's been done a million times; it would be great if it strayed from the norm and was a happy (or even a sad, though I prefer happy) ending. Not just the same ol' bittersweet one.
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Old 2008-02-08, 20:24   Link #107
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I'm rather interested in seeing what novel-original fans thought of Chloe's appearance in this episode, since there was so much contention about her being an anime-only character early on in this series. For me, I thought they played it really well. Ultimately, just like Lawrence, she's a merchant, and she'll willingly form alliances of convenience in order to advance her own financial position. I'm not sure why so many people are up in arms about Chloe's treatment of Horo in this episode. Chloe saw Horo as little more than a bargaining chip, but that's because she's a merchant, trying to make a living. I wouldn't have thought it'd be within the nature of her profession to think of Horo as anything more.

Nonetheless, I think the addition of Chloe was a good one, since it adds yet another dimension of complexity. The way this show has been plotted has been outstanding, yet it's never for a moment underestimated the importance of good characters with strong personalities. As a piece of animation, it's very difficult to find anything in this to criticize. I loved how eery they managed to make the sewer scenes in particular. That the atmosphere could change so readily with the setting is a sign of really good cinematography.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyel View Post
I don't like much, something is missing.

The Horo rescue was boring.

What is priority to Lawrence? silver king coins or travel with Horo to North?
Personally, I think that ambiguity is what makes the dynamic between Lawrence and Horo such an interesting one.
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Old 2008-02-08, 20:29   Link #108
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Wolves being pack animals, I guess the village was Horo's substitute pack, no wonder Chole's words hurt Horo so much . Since they treated her well, then badly and now indifferently they don't make a good pack. I surprised she didn't got balmy over the years and do a oyashiro-sama on them.

@SK - If Chole was being a merchant she had no reason to verbally assault her goods... She put the boot in with no reason to.
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Old 2008-02-08, 21:13   Link #109
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lol I love how Horo has got a "knight in shining armor" train of thought,that was just tooo cute beyond words but I guess slaying the dragon and climbing to the highest room in the highest tower in the castle is quite the tall order for oor Lawrence

now on a more serious note first there was the removal of fur and now tears of sadness!!!
*takes up arms with the Flareknight pitch fork squad*
this is deff a crime even gods will not escape!
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Old 2008-02-08, 21:18   Link #110
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It seems that every new episode released I like Horo more and more. She's a breath of fresh air from the other series I'm watch atm. Chloe's showing up was unexpected for me, although it adds for nice tension with the Horo-Lawrence-Chloe triangle. I never expected Chloe to be cold hearted of a character. It was a nice little twist I thought.
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Old 2008-02-08, 23:08   Link #111
Sorrow-K
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
@SK - If Chole was being a merchant she had no reason to verbally assault her goods... She put the boot in with no reason to.
Yeah, but there's no reason for her to put on the courteous lady act for her either. I'm not saying that what she did was necessarily right... or even wrong. I'm just saying that if you look at it from her point of view, in that situation there's no real incentive for her to show restraint and remain courteous and respectful to Horo. So she probably figured, why not let rip. And I really don't see much point in blaming her for it. As far as Chloe is concerned, Horo was, for at least a period in the village's history responsible for several years of low yields and, thus hardship. Chloe is simply ignorant of Horo's reasoning and criteria for choosing good years and bad, as well as Horo's nature and personality apart from her role as a "god". If she better understood Horo and still let loose in the same way, then I'd agree that she's being overly vindictive. As it is, all she was doing was disrespecting an unnecessary god... at least from her point of view.
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Old 2008-02-09, 00:07   Link #112
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Yeah, but there's no reason for her to put on the courteous lady act for her either. I'm not saying that what she did was necessarily right... or even wrong. I'm just saying that if you look at it from her point of view, in that situation there's no real incentive for her to show restraint and remain courteous and respectful to Horo. So she probably figured, why not let rip. And I really don't see much point in blaming her for it. As far as Chloe is concerned, Horo was, for at least a period in the village's history responsible for several years of low yields and, thus hardship. Chloe is simply ignorant of Horo's reasoning and criteria for choosing good years and bad, as well as Horo's nature and personality apart from her role as a "god". If she better understood Horo and still let loose in the same way, then I'd agree that she's being overly vindictive. As it is, all she was doing was disrespecting an unnecessary god... at least from her point of view.
Yah but a merchant hedges their bets. The story has Lawrence doing it well. She now realises that Horo exists, and by putting in the boot she could have just hexed herself. No self respecting merchant would do that. Hell most of them would do the basic celebration of every god just to ensure a good set of sales for the year.
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Old 2008-02-09, 02:38   Link #113
anomono
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Yeah, but there's no reason for her to put on the courteous lady act for her either. I'm not saying that what she did was necessarily right... or even wrong. I'm just saying that if you look at it from her point of view, in that situation there's no real incentive for her to show restraint and remain courteous and respectful to Horo. So she probably figured, why not let rip. And I really don't see much point in blaming her for it. As far as Chloe is concerned, Horo was, for at least a period in the village's history responsible for several years of low yields and, thus hardship. Chloe is simply ignorant of Horo's reasoning and criteria for choosing good years and bad, as well as Horo's nature and personality apart from her role as a "god". If she better understood Horo and still let loose in the same way, then I'd agree that she's being overly vindictive. As it is, all she was doing was disrespecting an unnecessary god... at least from her point of view.
This is simply not a matter of courtesy and respect, at all. Regardless of perspective, condemning someone to certain death for such petty reasons (and with no evidence, at that) is absolutely not forgivable. Nor is using a person/god's life as a tool for bargaining. It is evil, no matter how I view it.

Perhaps if one truly buys into the religious nonsense, they could justify it as righteousness. However, these ideas have yet to take in the remote towns such as Pasroe, so even this is not an excuse. Whatever you may call it, it is sickening to think about the countless atrocities committed in the name of God over the years.
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Old 2008-02-09, 03:31   Link #114
Sorrow-K
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This is simply not a matter of courtesy and respect, at all. Regardless of perspective, condemning someone to certain death for such petty reasons (and with no evidence, at that) is absolutely not forgivable. Nor is using a person/god's life as a tool for bargaining. It is evil, no matter how I view it.
Yeah, but these are the acts of Medioh and the Count and I'm not questioning that these are wrong. Chloe is merely complicit in the whole thing, but she is because it benefits her to go along with her business associates, not because she necessarily cares one way or another what happens to Horo. I'm still convinced that she's motivated entirely by her business interests, not by any desire to see Horo's downfall. Before this, she probably didn't even believe Horo existed. Now that she knows she exists, I would say that her words suggest that she really doesn't care.

grey_moon: Interesting point. I'd say she was probably convinced that that would be the last she'll see of Horo, but that's just a lack of perception more than anything else.
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Old 2008-02-09, 07:09   Link #115
grey_moon
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@SK - But to take it a little further, could she be a great merchant aka Billy Gates style? For example she now realises that Horo is real. From lore she knows that Horo can affect harvests badly, so if she pisses Horo off in the hope that Horo makes sure that there is no harvest for the following year. She would before hand stockpile all the grain and then in time of need make a killing off everyone oO

Now that would be evil but great mechanting
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Old 2008-02-11, 01:38   Link #116
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
@SK - But to take it a little further, could she be a great merchant aka Billy Gates style? For example she now realises that Horo is real. From lore she knows that Horo can affect harvests badly, so if she pisses Horo off in the hope that Horo makes sure that there is no harvest for the following year. She would before hand stockpile all the grain and then in time of need make a killing off everyone oO

Now that would be evil but great mechanting
I think you're following a pretty nice track, here, especially considering that the contemporary view towards the economic system thought of it generally as a "zero-sum" game. By profiting off the "enraged" Horo, Chloe might ultimately benefit from Horo's projected "neglect" of the harvest. Not only that, but since she already has her scheme going on, she's already in a pretty solid position economically. Now that I think of it, Chloe has been playing her cards very well, and if you're right at those ulterior motives, then Chloe pretty much has set herself up in a win-win situation regardless of what happens.

Of course, the only problem here is if they somehow reported the existence of Horo prior to her delivery. The failure to actually deliver her to the Vatican would have probably given her faction some Papal disfavor, which was a really detrimental thing at the time. It might not affect her company directly, but there will definitely be fallout with the Count if the Church was aware that they had Horo in their grasps but lost her again.
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Old 2008-02-11, 02:12   Link #117
Flo
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Makes me think of what happens if they send Horo to the Count BEFORE deliver to the Church.

Chances are the Church won't have a Horo to burn as the Count would make her his personal pet/favored concubine.

Horo's like , one of the kind. If the Count gets Horo, he will have what the others don't, which makes him more powerful(?) than the others and a huge boost in ego.

Bah what am I saying? Ok Church you can start your little war with the nobles.
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Old 2008-02-12, 02:57   Link #118
metronome
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Ok here is how it goes, rumor is spread that a certain coin will raise price so traders will starts collecting them but the rumor turn out to be false while the market trend show that the price may go down. The traders who collected the coin will want to release the coins as soon as possible to cut the loss at a minimum . At this point the mastermind who started the rumor buys out the coins at a lower then market price and the ones who collected them will have to agree. The traders who were swindled out will keep quite about it to maintain their reputation.
The mastermind takes the coin back to the issuer of the coin and the issuer will smelt them down and re-mint 13 coins out of 10 coins, and recirculate the coins back into the market in secrecy to maintain the vaule of the coin as long as possible.
so basically, there is a guy that try to buy all of the coins by spreading rumour that the coin prices will raise (while in fact it is going down).
the reason this guy want to buy the coins is to actually to sell it again to the issuer.
the reason the issuer want these coins is because he want to maintain the value of the coin

it is actually quite weird imo haha.
by just looking at this, we could say the one behind the guy that makes rumour and the issuer's cheats is actually the government itself?

the reason I find it weird is this: why would the issuer do that? I mean, the value of the coins keep going down. melting 13 out 10 is useless if the value is going down either way, right? or am I to stupid to understand this ? hahaha

well, thanks for explanation btw
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Old 2008-02-12, 03:09   Link #119
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I think it's like this: the issuer is the only one who can take ten coins and get thirteen. So, to him, the value of the coins is going to be big. For everyone else, it's a just a currency whose value is about to drop. And he has an urgent need of doing such a thing, or he wouldn't devaluate at all.

So, if you have a lot of those coins, you can extract a good deal from him. Not silver - it's what he needs. But other concessions, based on his political power rather than his coffers directly. It's an investment: you spend silver now, and get it back somehow over time.

As for the false rumors - it's just price manipulation. Once they're found out to be false, the "price" of the coins will plummet, and itll be a good time to buy. But since Milone found out early, they bought the coins even though their price was probably rising, to steal a march on Milone.
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Old 2008-02-12, 05:52   Link #120
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by metronome View Post

the reason I find it weird is this: why would the issuer do that? I mean, the value of the coins keep going down. melting 13 out 10 is useless if the value is going down either way, right? or am I to stupid to understand this ? hahaha

well, thanks for explanation btw
That was actually pointed out by Lawerence within the episode but adds his speculation that the issuer must be in serious debt that will lower the value of their coins in the long run.

By the way, the coin trick is melting down 10 and lower the silver content to create 13.
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