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Old 2008-02-05, 17:35   Link #1
Realist_Classic
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The Gundam 00 Armchair Generals' Thread

Part of Gundam00's popularity is its rich fictional setting and the many parallels that are drawn between that world and contemporary world affairs. If you were in a position to make strategic decisions for any one of the warring groups (AEU, Human Reform League, Union, Celestial Being), what kinds of strategies would you pursue in order to reach your desired outcome for world order?

Your faction has had to endure numerous setbacks in recent months against Celestial Being. Your missions to counter or capture the super weapons have been fruitless, with heavy losses in life and equipment. CB's interventions have made a mockery of your military force's ability to respond and to provide security. Election year's approaching or your political enemies are breathing down your back. What are you going to do now to regain the initiative?

Option 1: Cooperate with other factions. For example, a formal military alliance could be effective in stopping CB. Only with real cooperation could the factions provide public goods, such as a global network of sensors that can provide early warning of an impending CB intervention. Through scientific cooperation, you can together develop anti-Gundam weapons that would tip the scales against Celestial Being.

On the downside, cooperation would mean having to share scientific knowledge, intelligence and military resources with other factions. Your allies could cheat (and attack you when you're off-guard) or free-ride (by getting whatever they want but not contribute). There are security implications as your allies would learn and adapt to any military or technological advantage your faction has.

Option 2: Go it alone. Keep the status quo and come up with your own solutions. On the plus side, you won't need to compromise on your security or expending resources associated with building an alliance. On the downside, you'll have no recourse to any resources the other factions have and you can't count on backup.

Option 3: Renounce war altogether as per CB's demands (surrender)? This could be interesting to speculate on. Who would the factions surrender to? How is Celestial Being going to monitor compliance?

...you get the idea.

Possible discussions could revolve around politics, diplomacy, military strategies, economics and technology (everything and anything that a master strategist needs in his/her toolkit).

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Old 2008-02-06, 08:20   Link #2
Dean_the_Young
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Well, considering how Taribia and the HRL Gundam capture attempt in space demonstrated that the Gundams could not be overcome by any single power, any one who tries to go it alone will keep getting a bloody nose. On the other hand, loose-cooperation as seen in episode 15 can defeat the original four Gundams, though the new Gundams throw that out into confusion. So the only way to beat them is through cooperation of two or more powers.

However, in game theory, what generally happens is that in a three way zero-sum struggle, two groups will team up and shunt the third out. In the 00 landscape, that would be the HRL (who has assumed the role of leading against Celestial Being) and one other power, most likely the Union (who appears to have better relations with both other powers than they do with eachother, plus less territory conflicts). Since loose cooperation does not work, I predict that the next notable attempt will be a closer cooperation of the Union and HRL, with a deal to split the difference and relegate the already-faltering AEU to the dustbin of relevance. Both powers have a history of putting forth effort, and the risk of war should they not share will temper the inclination to cheat. The Union has various drug smuggling operations that could get a MS near their tower, while the HRL tower is within spitting distance of Australia.
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Old 2008-02-06, 09:20   Link #3
ReddyRedWolf
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Since normal field spooks are turning up zero if I was of the directors of the intelligence of a faction.

I figure out thinking out of the box.

Namely getting scientists and academics into analyzing CB. Civvies so to speak.

Remember Prof Eifman?

He figured out CB just when he was vaporized.

An organization like can't be so secret without leaving a trail.

Data analysis by geniuses is required.

Since most of the technological achievements of the day is thanks to CB's founder's theories, that is one avenue of investigation.

Not to mention the money trail.

Also even if GN particles can block transmissions I'd assume there is a particular frequency that is unaffected used by CB.

I'd leave that to cryptology and signals analysis.

Most of all if I was very avid in watching the Azadistan incident I'd pay real money to have the princess monitored 24/7.

I'd be suspicious that the princess was yelling at the pilot of the Gundam.
Perhaps also as a double duty protect the girl from terrorists till a Gundam payoff.
Can't let her till results.

If I was in the HRL intelligence and I've been reading Sergei's reports I'd get hold of the chief scientist of super human development for interrogation.

Also I'd read any incident where a Gundam may be involved.
Especially those with mobile suit massaceres before CB declared themselves. (e.g. Kurdistan)
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Old 2008-02-06, 10:31   Link #4
musicalcroc
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Hmm, my fav faction is the HRL (I like Sergei and Soma you know). Since our two elaborate and straightforward attempts to capture the Gundams, one solo and one cooperation, both fail, I agree with ReddyRedWolf about stepping out of the box and his measures.

I would suggest listening to gossiping mouths (every neighbourhood has one or two) if there is a boy whose name sounds Japanese but his appearance is not Japanese in the least.

Bribing the local people, especially some Polynesian (or African?) tribes to monitor the "deserted" islands should prove useful.

A closer cooperation with a certain curious journalist is not bad either.

Is there a certain girl who coincidentally going shopping before the bigger battles with CB on Earth?

Last but not least, how did the video of Aeolia Schenberg reach the press, namely the JNN? Plus, how did the info about the Super Soldier Programme come out to public? There should be some hacker visiting the media's network. In that case, track that damn hacker!
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Old 2008-02-06, 11:10   Link #5
ReddyRedWolf
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Actually JNN didn't play the Schenberg video.

Their signal frequency was pirated.

As for how the media recieved the HRL story.

How else but by e-mail.

But I'm sure CB was wily enough to redundantly proxy where they sent from.
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Old 2008-02-06, 11:58   Link #6
Dean_the_Young
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Since normal field spooks are turning up zero if I was of the directors of the intelligence of a faction.

I figure out thinking out of the box.

Namely getting scientists and academics into analyzing CB. Civvies so to speak.
Already being done. Billy, the man who invented the near-perfect-for-its-time Union Flag, has been working on it from the start.
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Remember Prof Eifman?

He figured out CB just when he was vaporized.
Professor Eifman has also been established as the kind of man who breaks the mold as well as one who understood Shenberg better than anyone else.
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An organization like can't be so secret without leaving a trail.
They can; it was established that it was because they did so 200 years ago when security measures were "lax".
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Data analysis by geniuses is required.
Billy figured that the GN particle light was decaying photons. The Professor hypothesized that the mystery particles were responsible for movement, controls, and weapons. And that's about it.
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Since most of the technological achievements of the day is thanks to CB's founder's theories, that is one avenue of investigation.
Except in so much that Eifman noted that the CB technology was "decades" beyond anyone else, not really. Without a sample to reverse engineer, the powers are having to go through decades of advancement the long way.
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Not to mention the money trail.
Covered up 200 years ago, and CB does its own independent manufacturing while relying on front companies to provide the pocket change.
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Also even if GN particles can block transmissions I'd assume there is a particular frequency that is unaffected used by CB.
No, GN particles when dispersed block ALL frequencies. Otherwise they'd be useless when a radio switched frequencies.
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I'd leave that to cryptology and signals analysis.
The best they've come up with is detection-by-absence method of spreading communication devices and seeing where a Gundam is by where no devices are responding from.
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Most of all if I was very avid in watching the Azadistan incident I'd pay real money to have the princess monitored 24/7.
Setsuna has only seen her once since then, and he effortlessly snuck through her own bodyguards. What good will watching her do? She doesn't know anything (that she will radomly tell).
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I'd be suspicious that the princess was yelling at the pilot of the Gundam.
Perhaps also as a double duty protect the girl from terrorists till a Gundam payoff.
Can't let her till results.
Hate to break it to you, but kidnapping a symbollic head of state is rarely a good idea. And there are any number of reasons to yell at a Gundam pilot in person, so what's suspicious about it? For all the governments know, she was just saying "Thankyou, but why?" It's not like Setsuna even told her anything insightful then.
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If I was in the HRL intelligence and I've been reading Sergei's reports I'd get hold of the chief scientist of super human development for interrogation.
Why? Sergei's reports wouldn't say "he knows the identity of a Gundam pilot." Sergei's report would say "he was unable to find who the pilot was" because that's what the scientist told Sergei right before he deleted the evidence that would have linked him to the SuperSoldier project.
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Also I'd read any incident where a Gundam may be involved.
Especially those with mobile suit massaceres before CB declared themselves. (e.g. Kurdistan)
And that would tell you...?

As far as we know, the ONLY person to come out of the Kurdistan intervention alive was Setsuna, and he's with CB now. Since CB clearly wasn't going around spreading its name before Ep 1, what would rumors and half-rumors tell yoU?

And what makes you think that the powers haven't been doing this? Or trying any of the other things you've said?
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Old 2008-02-06, 12:06   Link #7
allenephilim88
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Well, it depends. In the case of the HRL I would make an alliance with either the AEU or the Union. The reason??? I seriously believe that HRL military technology is behind compared to the other blocks (a normal flag or an realdo is definitely more effective than a Tieren). The gundams can defeat a tieren pretty easy, but not a flag or another mobile suit. The most viable alliance would be with the AEU, because they still haven't finished the orbital elevator and they could strengthen their military with the help of the HRL. Besides, it would be great to see Sergei and colonel Manekin working together (imagine the strategies they would use to capture the gundams).

In the case of the Union, I would do something pretty similar to what Celestial Being did. I would contact (not kidnap) the world's greatest scientist and put them to do a research on the gundams (anti-gundam weapons development, research on GN particles, etc...). And to prevent something similar to what happend to prof. Eifman, I would either put them into a high security military base, or create some kind of network for them to work on different places. Taking in consideration that the Union is geographically the biggest block, it would be difficult for the Thrones to target them.
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Old 2008-02-06, 12:10   Link #8
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by musicalcroc View Post
Hmm, my fav faction is the HRL (I like Sergei and Soma you know). Since our two elaborate and straightforward attempts to capture the Gundams, one solo and one cooperation, both fail, I agree with ReddyRedWolf about stepping out of the box and his measures.
How was the HRL attempt "straight forward"? It was tactical brilliance by any measure, and only unknown variables saved CB. How was that "inside the box"?


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I would suggest listening to gossiping mouths (every neighbourhood has one or two) if there is a boy whose name sounds Japanese but his appearance is not Japanese in the least.
Why? No one knows any names of CB, let alone that any of the pilots "sounds like a Japanese name but isn't."

Since, you know, Setsuna has never shown his face or name to any of the powers (and Marina ain't talking).

And it would also help if you could be a bit more specific, considering that the HRL has no real presence in Japan. Or that there's any reason to assume that a CB pilot would have a safehouse in Japan. Or that CB pilots even live in cities (Setsuna is the only one to consistently do this).
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Bribing the local people, especially some Polynesian (or African?) tribes to monitor the "deserted" islands should prove useful.
Sadly, and this might surprise you, the "local people" of South Pacific Isles don't have the ability to scout every half kilometer island in the largest ocean of the world. Or even get to most of them. Nor would it help unless they got out of their boats and combed each island.

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A closer cooperation with a certain curious journalist is not bad either.
Why? It was stated in the anime that she hasn't found anything that the powers didn't already know. The next new thing she finds will be the first.
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Is there a certain girl who coincidentally going shopping before the bigger battles with CB on Earth?
Besides about half of the Earth's population?
And why assume that CB employs a young girl? Why not a mature, experiance woman instead? Or people with ex-military experience? Wouldn't they be better candidates for CB?
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Last but not least, how did the video of Aeolia Schenberg reach the press, namely the JNN?
CB released it, and declared that they had the Gundams.
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Plus, how did the info about the Super Soldier Programme come out to public?
Celestial Being released it anonymously.
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There should be some hacker visiting the media's network. In that case, track that damn hacker!
It wasn't a hacking. It was a release. And it's literally child's play to release things on the Internet, and when you have the resources to upload it from any terminal in the world, "track that damn hacker" becomes a game of "find that terminal" long after the culprit has gotten away, if he was ever there in the first place.


Really, you're making assumptions based on what you, the viewer, know about the situation. Not what characters know or don't know. Stop it; it's (silly).

(silly) was a nicer word for what I really should say.
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Old 2008-02-06, 12:17   Link #9
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by allenephilim88 View Post
Well, it depends. In the case of the HRL I would make an alliance with either the AEU or the Union. The reason??? I seriously believe that HRL military technology is behind compared to the other blocks (a normal flag or an realdo is definitely more effective than a Tieren).
There's been no proof whatsoever that a Tieren is less than a Realdo or even a Flag in 1v1 combat. And since it was te AEU that not only blatantly copied the Union Flag but is also behind on their elevator, while the HRL is leading the field of human enhancement, you might want to rethink that claim that the HRL is technologically behind.

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The gundams can defeat a tieren pretty easy, but not a flag or another mobile suit.
?
CB has been shooting down Enacts, which are near carbon copies of the standard flag, right and left. The only reason fewer Flag CUSTOMS have been shot down is because they are piloted by 'elite' Grunts, same as to why few space tierens have been shot down.
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The most viable alliance would be with the AEU, because they still haven't finished the orbital elevator and they could strengthen their military with the help of the HRL. Besides, it would be great to see Sergei and colonel Manekin working together (imagine the strategies they would use to capture the gundams).
Counterpoint: It would be better to ally with Union, so that the AEU isn't springboarded as a major competitor once Gundam technology is captured. The Union already has good relations with you, while the AEU is right next door.

Also, Manekin hasn't shown any exceptional tactical brilliance to speak of yet.
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In the case of the Union, I would do something pretty similar to what Celestial Being did. I would contact (not kidnap) the world's greatest scientist and put them to do a research on the gundams (anti-gundam weapons development, research on GN particles, etc...). And to prevent something similar to what happend to prof. Eifman, I would either put them into a high security military base, or create some kind of network for them to work on different places. Taking in consideration that the Union is geographically the biggest block, it would be difficult for the Thrones to target them.
Why would a Union scientist work for you?

More importantly, why would any HRL base be more secure than THE ENTIRE UNION MILITARY CENTER IN SOUTH AMERICA?

And no, the Union isn't the biggest geographic block. That still goes to the HRL, who has everything between India, China, and Siberia.
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Old 2008-02-06, 12:17   Link #10
Terra
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No, GN particles when dispersed block ALL frequencies. Otherwise they'd be useless when a radio switched frequencies.
There must be some way around the communication jamming otherwise the pilots wouldn't be able to communicate with each other.
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Old 2008-02-06, 12:50   Link #11
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post

Except in so much that Eifman noted that the CB technology was "decades" beyond anyone else, not really. Without a sample to reverse engineer, the powers are having to go through decades of advancement the long way.
I have a theory that most of the technology of the day was leaked periodically by CB.

At least the patents of it.

It makes sense since the best scientists were in CB's pocket for 200 years.

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Covered up 200 years ago, and CB does its own independent manufacturing while relying on front companies to provide the pocket change.
If you are reffering to the Krung Thep colony of CB. I don't think colonies are that self sufficient.

Money and resources has to come from somewhere.

As the audience we know of the existence of the observers.

[quote]
No, GN particles when dispersed block ALL frequencies. Otherwise they'd be useless when a radio switched frequencies.The best they've come up with is detection-by-absence method of spreading communication devices and seeing where a Gundam is by where no devices are responding from.
[\quote]

Is that absolute? Then tell me how the Gundams are able to communicate while having GN particle drives.

They must have a frequency range higher than either radio or microwave to be able to communicate.

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Setsuna has only seen her once since then, and he effortlessly snuck through her own bodyguards. What good will watching her do? She doesn't know anything (that she will radomly tell).
How hard is it really to place an agent or bribe a guard or two to spy on her?
Heck this is a the same woman who had a security detail sloppily let a sleeper agent near her.


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Hate to break it to you, but kidnapping a symbollic head of state is rarely a good idea. And there are any number of reasons to yell at a Gundam pilot in person, so what's suspicious about it? For all the governments know, she was just saying "Thankyou, but why?" It's not like Setsuna even told her anything insightful then.
Why? Sergei's reports wouldn't say "he knows the identity of a Gundam pilot."
I never mentioned kidnapping. Spying or monitoring her drabbles slipping a name.
She keeps saying his full codename which is pretty stupid for Setsuna.


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Sergei's report would say "he was unable to find who the pilot was" because that's what the scientist told Sergei right before he deleted the evidence that would have linked him to the SuperSoldier project.
And that would tell you...?
The fact that the pilot reacts to the brain waves of Soma is suspicious.
Another is the same pilot attacking the same secret super human facility.
The good doctor was covering his ass from procecution.
Certainly something illegal even by HRLs standards.

I'm not an advocate of torture. A plea agreement of him staying out prison would suffice for him to spill the beans. (Especially if prison is a gulag in Siberia.)


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As far as we know, the ONLY person to come out of the Kurdistan intervention alive was Setsuna, and he's with CB now. Since CB clearly wasn't going around spreading its name before Ep 1, what would rumors and half-rumors tell yoU?

And what makes you think that the powers haven't been doing this? Or trying any of the other things you've said?
Patterns man. Patterns

One of the noted things about CB are the missing scientists.

Who is to say there are not missing pilots?

Not clean pilots but dirty ones.

CB isn't above recruiting criminals (Marlene Broody) or sociopaths (Fon Spark).


Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a thousand battles without disaster.

That why all military attempts on acquiring the Gundams failed.
The factions are all eager to snatch them recklessly.

If you cannot get to CB by brute force a more subtle approach is needed.
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Old 2008-02-06, 15:36   Link #12
allenephilim88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
There's been no proof whatsoever that a Tieren is less than a Realdo or even a Flag in 1v1 combat. And since it was te AEU that not only blatantly copied the Union Flag but is also behind on their elevator, while the HRL is leading the field of human enhancement, you might want to rethink that claim that the HRL is technologically behind.
Well, at least it seems that way. Normal tieren (the green ones) move waaay to slow (unless they have special propulsion or something like that). The Realdo and Flags in plane form move way faster and are more versatile.The Tieren that was use against the Kyrios in episode 15 (It was something like a desert type) was definitely better than the green ones and probably as effective as a flag. The space Tieren is the most effective of all, in fact, it is the only mobile suit we have seen fighting in space so far (of the three powerblocks). I´m just making guesses because as you said there´s no proof but it just seems that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
?
CB has been shooting down Enacts, which are near carbon copies of the standard flag, right and left. The only reason fewer Flag CUSTOMS have been shot down is because they are piloted by 'elite' Grunts, same as to why few space tierens have been shot down.
Counterpoint: It would be better to ally with Union, so that the AEU isn't springboarded as a major competitor once Gundam technology is captured. The Union already has good relations with you, while the AEU is right next door.
Thats a good point. But nevertheless, its easier to shot down a slow walking Tieren than a plane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Also, Manekin hasn't shown any exceptional tactical brilliance to speak of yet.
Why would a Union scientist work for you?
Thats right. But doesn´t she look like a female verion of sergei??jajaja. The only like good strategy she used was to send Patrick when the gundam meisters were tired. Also, she has to be a good strategist, otherwise she wouldn´t be in charge of the operation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
More importantly, why would any HRL base be more secure than THE ENTIRE UNION MILITARY CENTER IN SOUTH AMERICA?
I was talking about a Union base. Basically I thought that the Union is strong enough to developed something without making an alliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
And no, the Union isn't the biggest geographic block. That still goes to the HRL, who has everything between India, China, and Siberia.
Jajaja, I miscalculated, sorry. Maybe not the biggest, but big enough
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Old 2008-02-06, 17:33   Link #13
Morgun
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I'd make my own "Gundam" and use it to destroy the other blocs' space elevators or their solar collectors. Sure they don't have the technology to make a real Gundam, but faking one shouldn't be that hard. Some type of FX light show to look like GN drive particles. Generate electromagnetic waves to seem even more like a Gundam. Study pictures of the Gundam to make an outer shell that looks like one. Modify a laser to make it look like a beam shot, and use timed explosives in the elevator to make it seem like the laser caused the explosion. A quick strike and retreat to keep observation to a minimum if done correctly could cripple the other powers and let CB take the blame.
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Old 2008-02-06, 19:38   Link #14
allenephilim88
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Originally Posted by Morgun View Post
I'd make my own "Gundam" and use it to destroy the other blocs' space elevators or their solar collectors. Sure they don't have the technology to make a real Gundam, but faking one shouldn't be that hard. Some type of FX light show to look like GN drive particles. Generate electromagnetic waves to seem even more like a Gundam. Study pictures of the Gundam to make an outer shell that looks like one. Modify a laser to make it look like a beam shot, and use timed explosives in the elevator to make it seem like the laser caused the explosion. A quick strike and retreat to keep observation to a minimum if done correctly could cripple the other powers and let CB take the blame.
You know, if you destroy just one orbital elevator, you would practically kill all life on earth, or at leas a big part. Imagine a colony drop but maybe 3 times worser,jajaja. I saw this on Zone of the Enders: Dolores i, but I think this is the most probable scenario.
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Old 2008-02-06, 19:55   Link #15
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
I have a theory that most of the technology of the day was leaked periodically by CB.

At least the patents of it.

It makes sense since the best scientists were in CB's pocket for 200 years.
Not really. Celestial Being's two sole advantages are (1) secrecy and (2) the overwhelming technological dominance of their gundams. Also add in the fact that the mission to destroy the Enact and the intended mission to destroy the Taozi were in part or directlyintended to disuade/condemn attempts to produce more high-tech weaponry, and the idea that Celestial Being has been removing its own advantage is counterproductive.

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If you are reffering to the Krung Thep colony of CB. I don't think colonies are that self sufficient.
Why not? What makes Krung Thep or possible other outposts not self-sufficient?
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Money and resources has to come from somewhere.
Money comes from the Schenberg fortune which was hidden and could be invested over the past two centuries. Raw materials can easily come from across the solar system.
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As the audience we know of the existence of the observers.
As the head of the HRL Intelligence Agency, you don't. As the head of the HRL Intelligence Agency, all you know is that the money went missing long before the computer security necessary to track it was developed, and that the best efforts of your intelligence sources (and those of your rivals) isn't finding it.

[quote]
No, GN particles when dispersed block ALL frequencies. Otherwise they'd be useless when a radio switched frequencies.The best they've come up with is detection-by-absence method of spreading communication devices and seeing where a Gundam is by where no devices are responding from.
[\quote]
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Is that absolute? Then tell me how the Gundams are able to communicate while having GN particle drives.

They must have a frequency range higher than either radio or microwave to be able to communicate.
This, of course, is based on the assumption that the Gundams can only communicate via radio. There's no indication of this whatsoever. Gundams have been able to communicate for the same reason that they are able to fly; the show told us so without explaining why. What has been told and demonstrated is that the GN particles will block all communications. Otherwise, over six monthes and some weeks after CB started, Graham and Patrick wouldn't still be unable to communicate in the presence of dispersed GN particles.
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How hard is it really to place an agent or bribe a guard or two to spy on her?
Heck this is a the same woman who had a security detail sloppily let a sleeper agent near her.
But, you'll notice, this is the same security detail that stopped said sleeper agent before she could fire, even though they had no reason to suspect her. So the answer could be from "moderately difficult" to "extremely," and there's still no reason to assume that she knows anything about the pilot.


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I never mentioned kidnapping. Spying or monitoring her drabbles slipping a name.
She keeps saying his full codename which is pretty stupid for Setsuna.
She's said it all of... four times? Five? Most of the time to herself?

Even if she did mutter a name out loud, and there's no proof that she does on any regular basis, that's no indication whatsoever that that name is a gundam meister. She likely says her advisor's name often as well.


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The fact that the pilot reacts to the brain waves of Soma is suspicious.
Another is the same pilot attacking the same secret super human facility.
The good doctor was covering his ass from procecution.
Certainly something illegal even by HRLs standards.
We have the report that the Doctor would have sent: that he did not find who the pilot could have been. We have the report Sergei would have sent: the same thing. We have the computer database: which says the same thing. Furthermore, there are non-arrested beurecrats you can use to search the system, which makes the good Doctor unnecessary for checking records. So now you're basing you advice on viewer's knowledge that the Doctor deleted the files.
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I'm not an advocate of torture. A plea agreement of him staying out prison would suffice for him to spill the beans. (Especially if prison is a gulag in Siberia.)
...you don't know what went on in the gulags, do you? Suffice to say, prisoner abuse was regular on a level that makes Gitmo look like a moral paragon.

Quote:

Patterns man. Patterns

One of the noted things about CB are the missing scientists.

Who is to say there are not missing pilots?

Not clean pilots but dirty ones.

CB isn't above recruiting criminals (Marlene Broody) or sociopaths (Fon Spark).


Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a thousand battles without disaster.

That why all military attempts on acquiring the Gundams failed.
The factions are all eager to snatch them recklessly.

If you cannot get to CB by brute force a more subtle approach is needed.
...what the f(e)ck are you talking about? None of that was in any way related to the main thrust of my point, which was that none of what you've suggested is in any way likely to have not been tried by the military intelligences. All you did was throw around a number of vague quotations that make no point and tried to pass it off as wisdom.

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Originally Posted by allenephilim88 View Post
Well, at least it seems that way. Normal tieren (the green ones) move waaay to slow (unless they have special propulsion or something like that). The Realdo and Flags in plane form move way faster and are more versatile.The Tieren that was use against the Kyrios in episode 15 (It was something like a desert type) was definitely better than the green ones and probably as effective as a flag. The space Tieren is the most effective of all, in fact, it is the only mobile suit we have seen fighting in space so far (of the three powerblocks). I´m just making guesses because as you said there´s no proof but it just seems that way.
Counterpoints: CB has had no problem blowing dozens of Realdos and such out of the sky with Kyrios missile packs, the Dynames has never had a problem with any but the utmost aces, the Exia ran down two Realdos who had a head start, and the Virtue blew an entire squadron of Enacts from the sky over Taribia in one shot.

Counterpoint: The Tieren is noted to be a good model because it is reliable and tough, demonstrated when an Amph shot barely phased a Tieren. What the Tierens lack in speed, they make up for in amazing (relative) endurance and heavy firepower.

Note: We say a AEU Hellion try and fight in space back in episode 1. It wasn't pretty.

Conclusion: While the Tieren may not be as advanced as the other models, it is by no means inferior.

Quote:

Thats a good point. But nevertheless, its easier to shot down a slow walking Tieren than a plane.
A walking Tieren that gets hit has a strong chance of either (a) blocking a shot or (b) shrugging it off. A plane that gets hit has neither; merely slicing a single arm sent Hellions falling by the score in episode one, and that was from a close range gundam. After, I might add, the Dynames effectively sniped a half a flight of them from well over a thousand meters.

Quote:

Thats right. But doesn´t she look like a female verion of sergei??jajaja. The only like good strategy she used was to send Patrick when the gundam meisters were tired. Also, she has to be a good strategist, otherwise she wouldn´t be in charge of the operation.
Not really. She may be competant in the same way the Union Admiral has been portrayed as competant. That doesn't make her brilliant on the level of the Wild Bear of Russia, who beat even Sumeragi.


Quote:
I was talking about a Union base. Basically I thought that the Union is strong enough to developed something without making an alliance.
Why? They have at best a marginal lead over either power; they have a solar elevator while the AEU doesn't, and they have a up-to-date MS that the HRL lacks. We'll see more next episode, but the Union is still decades from being able to get what reverse engineering a gundam would give them.
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Jajaja, I miscalculated, sorry. Maybe not the biggest, but big enough
America is never big enough11!!1!11!

(Note the sarcasm, please.)
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Old 2008-02-06, 19:57   Link #16
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by allenephilim88 View Post
You know, if you destroy just one orbital elevator, you would practically kill all life on earth, or at leas a big part. Imagine a colony drop but maybe 3 times worser,jajaja. I saw this on Zone of the Enders: Dolores i, but I think this is the most probable scenario.
Not really. Not enough mass, most of it would burn up, and all debree would fall in a pretty straight line east. Wikipedia has a decent explanation of it, but if you were to cut a space elevator teather and watch it fall, it would hit the earth's surface with the force of a light sheet of paper because of the air resistance. 00 towers wouldn't be that soft, but they are hardly continent-killers.
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Old 2008-02-06, 23:10   Link #17
4Tran
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As leader of one of the power blocs, the simplest (and perhaps most effective) strategy would be to feign inaction. While Celestial Being seized the initiative with their announcement, they are restricted to reacting to world events. I already control one of the greatest nations in the world, and I'm not actively at war with any other great power, so I don't have any real cause to make any aggressive moves. And as long as I don't make any aggressive moves, Celestial Being won't be able to do anything to me unless they want to expose themselves as massive hypocrites.

Moreover, there isn't any pressing need to steal the technologies behind the Gundams - since someone was able to build them, I would be able to throw far more resources at the same problem, so I'll get those technologies as long as I'm patient. Historically, there aren't all that many cases of powers acquiring enemy technologies through reverse-engineering, and there's no indication that this is necessary in the case of the Gundams either. The only exception to this would be if another faction were likely to seize the technologies; but even then, I'm not at war with them and there aren't any wars pending, so there's no real rush.

While this would be the public stance, my intelligence networks will be working overtime to find out more about Celestial Being, and to root out their strengths and weaknesses. It has to be a very large organization, and very large organizations can't hide themselves very well, so it'll only be a matter of time before enough information is uncovered to neutralize them. As the leader of a massive power bloc, the actions of Celestial Being support the status quo, so it's possible to play the long game with almost no chance of failure.
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Old 2008-02-07, 04:29   Link #18
ReddyRedWolf
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DnY I haven't seen you do any strategizing all you've been doing is holding on to the image that CB is infalible.

In real life conspiracies can be found out if one is persistent enough.

Thing is in Intelligence you are presented with a very volumenous data.

Trick is to differentiate the significant information from the useless. (Data Analysis)

The little things lead to clues of what is happening or what would happen.

Why do you suppose intel orgs recruit or contract academics?

The best experts are not in government pay but in the private sector.

Field agents can only do so much. (Especially if your agency is understaffed)

Truth is breakthroughs in the intel game are often won in a cubicle.

Code breaking, money trails, linking individuals etc.

Besides all warfare is based on deception.

To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
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Old 2008-02-07, 05:48   Link #19
musicalcroc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Really, you're making assumptions based on what you, the viewer, know about the situation. Not what characters know or don't know. Stop it; it's (silly).

(silly) was a nicer word for what I really should say.
Thanks for being lenient to me. I wasn't serious when I post that. Sorry if my failed attempt of a joke annoyed you. And my standard of "outside the box" was loose

However, I feel the need to explain the term "straightforward". With that I mean the HRL unnecessarily and agressively took action against CB. Here is why I think so.

Let's begin with CB's alleged mission "to eradicate all war". And their method is "fight those who fight". That means they can intervene only when the conflict already takes shape, the minimum is two sides facing each other ready to strike in the Taribia case. CB cannot violate that because it is their very reason of existence and once they break their own principles, as the Union president hints, because they will lose their authority and their ground of action (Call me naive but when an organization claims something, it has to justify that).

Coming to the world order before CB appear. There are 3 power blocs and they have reached a quite stable balance (judging from Union's president's speech, there hasn't been a major war for a while). Granted that there are conflicts but the powers are not the chief belligerents (they at most intervene like the HRL with Ceylon and Union with Azardistan). That means the powers can fully avoid a direct confrontation with CB. They can step back, take advantage of the smaller conflicts to know about CB and conduct intelligence research. The Union and to some extent the AEU did that. The Moralia incident is a fight between CB and the PMC, the AEU was not the main actor. But the HRL opposed CB from the start with both speech and action. In a way, that's the most classic reaction of a "great nation" who's challenged and I can hardly call that wise. Sumeragi's team was saved by unknown variables but CB itself is the biggest unknown variable (besides some effects of the GN particles, what else the world know about them. Directly confronting such enemy is dangerous because who knows what may happen, as is proved in ep 10 and 16. We know that the Thrones are a surprise for Sumeragi's team themselves but are they a surprise for CB?

As 4tran has mentioned, a good course of action will be avoiding fighting with CB outside and conduct extensive intelligence research inside. Military action is the last resort.

One more comment. In a weird way, the powers justify the Thrones' more aggressive intervention (yeah that's an assassination but the official reason is to "disarm" MSWAD) because they "start" a conflict with that elaborate operation, this time against CB itself. But if we need to go really serious about that, CB has to fight CB because it is the cause of the conflict.
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Old 2008-02-07, 08:18   Link #20
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
DnY I haven't seen you do any strategizing all you've been doing is holding on to the image that CB is infalible.
-snip-
Since all of that is elementary intelligence wisdom that has freely been known for the longest time and thus no indication that the powers have NOT been doing that since episode 1, I'm going to put your "changes" down as "continue the practices of the head of the previous head of intelligence.

Because, you know, that's really what your ideas to this point have been. (In fact, I should backtrack and admit that the HRL Scientists was

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicalcroc View Post
Thanks for being lenient to me. I wasn't serious when I post that. Sorry if my failed attempt of a joke annoyed you. And my standard of "outside the box" was loose

-snip-
Oi vei, I was more annoyed at the your jokes because I've recently had to deal with a number of Fools with a capital F irl (fundamentalists, militant feminists, absolute environmentalists, oh my!), and so my 'joke' detector for that sphere has been out. I offer my most sincere apologies for jumping too hard. (Normally, I'm nor bad at the whole sarcasm thing if I do say so myself...)


That said, I (mostly) think 4tran is on the right track, except for two main things: I'm under the impression from Doctor Eifman that the Gundams are way too advanced to catch-up to without reverse engineering, and the new variable of the introduction of the Thrones, who demonstrated that not only will CB go out of its way to attack a non-agressive post (invalidating the purported non-action), but that they would also target "dangerous" individuals (meaning that as your agencies get closer, more individual-oriented attacks will occur). And, of course, there are the non-government interventions, such as against drug trade, terrorists, and the whatnot, and routinely not defending against those would be a politically difficult thing.

Unilateral action is a demonstrated non-starter for dealing with the gundams, while even very loose multilateral has its limits. Non-action with a research emphasis, which is what the Union has done except for two notable occasions (Azadistan and in the Battle of the Big Three), has also shown at best significantly marginal products (Custom Flag, new production-level Linear Rifle, growth in plasma sabers(maybe?)), but it also saw the targetted assassination of Eifman, who I doubt was publicly telling the world "I know about CB!"

There is no good action, especially with the Thrones involved. Right now Time is the most important tool for the powers; time to adjust, reorganize, and replan. And, this is my view, but getting a Gundam is still the best way to defeat Celestial Being, and would be worth splitting the gain with one other power. The new Thrones would terrify me as a government analyst. I've made hints as to now, but now for my own (more detailed) suggestions as of ep 17.

-A two-power alliance between the Union and HRL. The two have the most resources, the fewest problems sending troops where needed (unlike the AEU, who is the smallest, doesn't have a completed trouble, and faces notable domestic disfavor of foreign troop deployments). The details would be hammered out as varied, but mostly split the cost, split the reward, and in the spirit of zero-sum games leave the AEU to lose. This alliance would include military, intelligence, AND scientific cooperation. Note: This is really the only power-exclusive suggestion. The rest are universal.

-Keep the money rolling for intelligence. Don't expect anything new from it, mind you (which is where I differ from most), but keep looking for that one-in-a-million chance that will give you something to yank. If I can reach the late Eifman's conclusion (which would be hard with the doctor dead and his personal notes destroyed, and the fact I never knew he had that revelation in the first place), I'll be up a new step. Getting there is nowhere near a guarantee, though.

-Don't put my eggs in one basket. After the events of MSWAD, spread my scientists out as much as possible. Keep my assets protected, even if it means putting them in a secret bunker for awhile.

-Try and grab a Gundam accessory. Whether it be a blade, a rifle, or a shield, have a standing order be to grab and scoot. Especially with a beam-weapon, to help crack the GN code.

-It's likely already been done, but make anti-Gundam training more intense for all pilots, new and established. Teamwork is key; half of the Union aces who have fallen to a Gundam did so when they broke out of formation.

-Cross train with my ally's anti-gundam taskforce.

Something I'd like to stress is that none of these are anything close to a guaranteed winner. CB's intelligence network is impressive, and may very well know what my scientists are eating for lunch, let alone where they are. Grabbing a gundam equipment might be impossible or useless if, say, they self destruct. Or have a tracking device that will lead CB to one of my research teams. Anti-gundam training won't matter if a rookie pilot is scarred, or simply makes a single fatal mistake. Continuing intelligence research may give only the faintest of outlines to keep looking for.
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