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Old 2008-02-07, 12:33   Link #21
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
I'm under the impression from Doctor Eifman that the Gundams are way too advanced to catch-up to without reverse engineering
Actually, the very opposite is true. Eifman didn't have any physical Gundam parts to study, but he still managed to figure out the general principle behind the solar furnaces and that their relationship to Jupiter; and he managed to do this after studying the problem (largely on his own) for a few months. If a power bloc were to devote a significant portion of their scientific and engineering resources toward the same problem, it'll be quite possible for them to replicate the same technology. Sure it might take a few years, but it's not as if the blocs are going anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
the new variable of the introduction of the Thrones, who demonstrated that not only will CB go out of its way to attack a non-agressive post (invalidating the purported non-action), but that they would also target "dangerous" individuals
Conversely, this actually strengthens the blocs' hands. Launching aggressive attacks against non-threatening targets brings about three main consequences:

1. Celestial Being exposes themselves as hypocrites; ensuring a reduction of public support.
2. It gives the power blocs a very good excuse for taking extreme measures when they become convenient.
3. It drives a wedge between Celestial Being's idealists and hawks.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
And, of course, there are the non-government interventions, such as against drug trade, terrorists, and the whatnot, and routinely not defending against those would be a politically difficult thing.
It's quite convenient that Celestial Being has demonstrated that they'll do it themselves, so there's no need for the blocs to expend the effort themselves.
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Old 2008-02-07, 14:09   Link #22
allenephilim88
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Not really. Not enough mass, most of it would burn up, and all debree would fall in a pretty straight line east. Wikipedia has a decent explanation of it, but if you were to cut a space elevator teather and watch it fall, it would hit the earth's surface with the force of a light sheet of paper because of the air resistance. 00 towers wouldn't be that soft, but they are hardly continent-killers.
I didnīt expected to find that info on wikipedia (hail wikipedia, jajaja). Its pretty interesting that a giant pilar can do no damage to earth. Aparently with carbon nanotubes it is posible to do a space elevator. But still, in gundam 00 universe, I think the 3 elevators are conected to each other, so destroying one of them would cause the others to fail, or are they independent from one another and ring conecting them serves other purposes???

Oh I forgot. To asume CBs strategies is kind of difficult because we still donīt know the goal they really wish to achieve, but in the case of the first gundam group, I think I would continue to invervene as always but definitely make better strategies to aviod the gundams being capture (although with the appereance of the thrones capturing a gundam is know more difficult). First I would do something about Alleluyah and that headache an change of personality of his. It would be smarter than taking the chance that the Kyrios gets captured by the HRL just because Hallelujah gets bored. Also, the gundam meisters need some training. They would be totally owned if the other aces and some grunts had weapons that at least did some damage to the gundams. Thats another thing I dont understand. Supposedly, the flags, realdos, etc... are made from E-carbon and so do the gundams. Its understandable that the gundams do some serious damage to those units because they have beam weapons, but in the case of the grunt units and even the aces units, the only weapon that seems to be able do damage a gundam are just plasma daggers and carbon blades. The strange thing is that range weapons such as rifles, missile launchers and so are only able to do some scratches to the gundams. I think this is just strange unless the gundams are shielded with more e-carbon than any of the superpowers mobile suits.
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Old 2008-02-07, 15:11   Link #23
Terra
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Originally Posted by allenephilim88 View Post
I didnīt expected to find that info on wikipedia (hail wikipedia, jajaja). Its pretty interesting that a giant pilar can do no damage to earth. Aparently with carbon nanotubes it is posible to do a space elevator. But still, in gundam 00 universe, I think the 3 elevators are conected to each other, so destroying one of them would cause the others to fail, or are they independent from one another and ring conecting them serves other purposes???

Oh I forgot. To asume CBs strategies is kind of difficult because we still donīt know the goal they really wish to achieve, but in the case of the first gundam group, I think I would continue to invervene as always but definitely make better strategies to aviod the gundams being capture (although with the appereance of the thrones capturing a gundam is know more difficult). First I would do something about Alleluyah and that headache an change of personality of his. It would be smarter than taking the chance that the Kyrios gets captured by the HRL just because Hallelujah gets bored. Also, the gundam meisters need some training. They would be totally owned if the other aces and some grunts had weapons that at least did some damage to the gundams. Thats another thing I dont understand. Supposedly, the flags, realdos, etc... are made from E-carbon and so do the gundams. Its understandable that the gundams do some serious damage to those units because they have beam weapons, but in the case of the grunt units and even the aces units, the only weapon that seems to be able do damage a gundam are just plasma daggers and carbon blades. The strange thing is that range weapons such as rifles, missile launchers and so are only able to do some scratches to the gundams. I think this is just strange unless the gundams are shielded with more e-carbon than any of the superpowers mobile suits.
If they could do something about Allelujah I'm sure they would as I'm sure Allelujah would be happy to not get splitting headaches everytime he's near Soma. CB doesn't have the information about what was done to him unlike the scientist was for Soma.

The meisters have been trained. What they lack is actual experience of real fights. This is what they're getting now. But because of the overwhelming advantage they've had so far, there hasn't been anything to push their skills and increase it. The potential is obviously there, but they don't have the experience yet.

The general thought is the GN particles help strengthen the armour further than what is normal.
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Old 2008-02-07, 18:07   Link #24
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by allenephilim88 View Post
I didnīt expected to find that info on wikipedia (hail wikipedia, jajaja). Its pretty interesting that a giant pilar can do no damage to earth.
Oh, there would be some damage. This a solid construct, not a glorified rope, and so there would be debree at a minimum. But the stuff high up would likely break up/burn in atmosphere, air resistance would stop other parts, and at most it would be like a mass driver hitting the surface. Nice boom, plenty of ruined houses (and cities, possibly), but think "super huricane + craters" rather than "Dinosaur Killer."
Quote:

Aparently with carbon nanotubes it is posible to do a space elevator. But still, in gundam 00 universe, I think the 3 elevators are conected to each other, so destroying one of them would cause the others to fail, or are they independent from one another and ring conecting them serves other purposes???
We don't know, but I doubt it. The AEU still hasn't completed their tower, so the only supports (if the Ring needs support and isn't just one big satelite now) are two towers, and the Union President mentioned that the world economy started to recover after the first tower was built. If I had to guess, the Ring was finished first and put into orbit, and then the elevators were completed to serve as super-efficient energy pipelines to the surface (rather than inefficient radiation transmission). That would make the elevators accessories to the Ring, and not the other way around.

Plus, engineering would make it rather silly to lose the entire system if only one power broke down.
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Old 2008-02-07, 18:17   Link #25
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by allenephilim88 View Post
Thats another thing I dont understand. Supposedly, the flags, realdos, etc... are made from E-carbon and so do the gundams. Its understandable that the gundams do some serious damage to those units because they have beam weapons, but in the case of the grunt units and even the aces units, the only weapon that seems to be able do damage a gundam are just plasma daggers and carbon blades. The strange thing is that range weapons such as rifles, missile launchers and so are only able to do some scratches to the gundams. I think this is just strange unless the gundams are shielded with more e-carbon than any of the superpowers mobile suits.
GN fields act like bulletproof vests. They work against bullets, shrapnel, stuff like that. They most likely dampen the force thrown at them.

But just like bulletproof vests, knives [carbon blades, plasma daggers] work on them because unlike non-melee weapons, they have two forces that work for them: The penetrating force, and the follow-up force.

That is the most likely explanation as to why melee weapons would work on the Gundams. As well as Sergei's version of the Shining Finger. It's a different type of damage delivery.
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Old 2008-02-07, 19:18   Link #26
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If I was in charge of one of the nations in the Gundam 00 universe, I would most likely cease all conflicts and pay lip service to Celestial Being meanwhile developing units to rival a Gundam.

Celestial Beings weakness is their reliance on Ptolmaios, during an armed intervention if a nation attacked Ptolmaios the Gundams would be in trouble.

It takes more effort to capture than to kill, the nations should focus on destroying the Gundams and then research whatevers left, which reminds me of the Nadleeh battle: with all the discarded parts floating around nobody from HRL had the sense to take a part?

Skillwise the Gundam pilots are weak as they can be matched by others who don't have the luxury of a Gundam such as the custom flags, custom tieren and the custom enact, and as a character said before Setsuna relies on the abilities of the Gundam too much.
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Old 2008-02-07, 19:53   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Blizzer View Post
If I was in charge of one of the nations in the Gundam 00 universe, I would most likely cease all conflicts and pay lip service to Celestial Being meanwhile developing units to rival a Gundam.
For many countries, "sources of conflict" are a part of their existence. The HRL support the Tamil minority because it's the Tamil minority that can threaten the HRL energy pipeline to India. The AEU supports various groups in Africa because if they don't, they could see another power set up shop right next to their elevator. The Union has been intervening for the safety and interests of its citizens for hundreds of years, and runs the constant risk of disafected people in South America threatening the elevator.

There are reasons for conflicts, you know. They aren't just something people do for the heck of it.


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Celestial Beings weakness is their reliance on Ptolmaios, during an armed intervention if a nation attacked Ptolmaios the Gundams would be in trouble.
But as a member of the Three Powers, you don't know this. The Ptolmaios is normally effectively invisible to the three nations, and usually has at least one gundam on board except for the major missions, which there is no guarantee that there will be 4 gundams on any given mission. It took a massive resource investment for Sergei to locate the Ptolmaios even once, and that was when its guard was down.
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It takes more effort to capture than to kill, the nations should focus on destroying the Gundams and then research whatevers left, which reminds me of the Nadleeh battle: with all the discarded parts floating around nobody from HRL had the sense to take a part?
At this point, that really isn't true, not least because so few weapons actually damage the gundams. It's been easier to disable the pilot/immobolize them than to damage them.

As for the Nadleeh, it might have something to do with how Sergei made a hasty retreat after Tieria killed all but three of his force, and that the Ptolemy came by soon after.
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Skillwise the Gundam pilots are weak as they can be matched by others who don't have the luxury of a Gundam such as the custom flags, custom tieren and the custom enact, and as a character said before Setsuna relies on the abilities of the Gundam too much.
Point: There have been a grand total of two pilots who have "matched" a gundam: Graham and Ali. Soma KO's Alelujah by her mere presence, Sergei's been a bystander since his first flight, and Patrick is a joke. And even Graham and Ali have only succeded when the pilots were dead exhausted.

As for Setsuna relying too much on his suit, it's funny to hear that as a dismissal when people like Sergei or Graham are held up as examples of excellence. Sergei's strategy for crushing the Exia's head was ENTIRELY dependent on the Exia not being able to cut off the Tieren's arm (which, if that's not relying on the machine I don't know what is), while Graham's entire basis for support has been "give me a super-fast machine with a bigger gun." Graham's survival has more than once been due to the speed and manuverability of the Custom Flag alone, not his "skill." Ali is the only pilot who can credibly claim to rely on skill more than machine AND skill.
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Old 2008-02-07, 23:33   Link #28
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
As for Setsuna relying too much on his suit, it's funny to hear that as a dismissal when people like Sergei or Graham are held up as examples of excellence. Sergei's strategy for crushing the Exia's head was ENTIRELY dependent on the Exia not being able to cut off the Tieren's arm (which, if that's not relying on the machine I don't know what is), while Graham's entire basis for support has been "give me a super-fast machine with a bigger gun." Graham's survival has more than once been due to the speed and manuverability of the Custom Flag alone, not his "skill." Ali is the only pilot who can credibly claim to rely on skill more than machine AND skill.
With Sergei, the fact is that he can use an inferior machine and use strategy to outmaneuver Setsuna's Exia and overwhelm it even for a few moments with again, an inferior machine.

With Graham, I can sort of agree, since Gundams are in some ways weak against fast and maneuverable machines, but even then, these machines are still inferior overall to the Gundams.

With Ali, he can read ahead on Setsuna's movements which makes him a bad matchup against Setsuna from the beginning. And again, the Enact is a fast unit, which Gundams are also sort of weak against.

The logic that comes with this (claiming their excellence) is if these pilots were given comparable units to the Gundams, they would outmaneuver the Meisters much more easily, given that they train in them.

Sergei, Graham, and Ali can owe their piloting skills to their vast battle experiences. They will not lose their experience and the skills that they've acquired. That is their one-up on the Meisters.

Hell, Sergei avoided the GN Fangs in a Tieren and lasted for some time before being downed. And a Tieren doesn't have anywhere near the ability of either the Taozi or the Custom Flag and Enacts.
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Old 2008-02-08, 00:08   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
With Sergei, the fact is that he can use an inferior machine and use strategy to outmaneuver Setsuna's Exia and overwhelm it even for a few moments with again, an inferior machine.
By that reasoning, Setsuna simply used strategy in a superior machine to outmanuver and decimate Sergei. In that encounter, both blatantly relied on the natural talents of their machines. Sergei gambled EVERYTHING on the assumption that the armor on his Tieren's arm would be too much for the blade. Setsuna simply used the weapon he had been equiped with from the start in a manuver that any pilot in any universe with beamsabers would do; take out the beamsaber and chop of the arm of anyone foolish enough to grapple like that. It doesn't require skill to do that.


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With Graham, I can sort of agree, since Gundams are in some ways weak against fast and maneuverable machines, but even then, these machines are still inferior overall to the Gundams.
The Gundams have never been "weak" against anything up to this point, unless you consider "aces surviving" to be "weak." Virtue, the slowest of them all, blew an entire squadron of Enacts from the sky in one blow; Lockon has routinely sniped airborn MS going at jet-speed from the sky; Kyrios has been death for flying suits; Setsuna ran down two Realdos that were already in jet mode.
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With Ali, he can read ahead on Setsuna's movements which makes him a bad matchup against Setsuna from the beginning. And again, the Enact is a fast unit, which Gundams are also sort of weak against.
See my points above about being "weak against." Fast suits allow ace pilots to survive, not fast suits themselves are especially effective.
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The logic that comes with this (claiming their excellence) is if these pilots were given comparable units to the Gundams, they would outmaneuver the Meisters much more easily, given that they train in them.
Depends on who, really. No one can likely beat Lockon in a Dynames match, and Hallelujah has been the most dangerous pilot in the series so far. The Thrones haven't been shown to be anything but good so far, and it's hard to see how anyone could pilot the Virtue better that leaves Setsuna, but even it wouldn't be clean-cut.
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Sergei, Graham, and Ali can owe their piloting skills to their vast battle experiences. They will not lose their experience and the skills that they've acquired. That is their one-up on the Meisters.
Agree, but a nitpick. Two thirds true: there's been no real indication that Graham has seen combat. Closest we've seen is Joshua's implication that Graham shot down a commander, which could have been during a training fiasco.
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Hell, Sergei avoided the GN Fangs in a Tieren and lasted for some time before being downed. And a Tieren doesn't have anywhere near the ability of either the Taozi or the Custom Flag and Enacts.
Hm? I have trouble finding a reliable copy of the episode, but I thought that Sergei didn't so much evade the GN fangs as constantly get hit glancing blows before when one hit the backpack.
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Old 2008-02-08, 00:36   Link #30
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
By that reasoning, Setsuna simply used strategy in a superior machine to outmanuver and decimate Sergei. In that encounter, both blatantly relied on the natural talents of their machines. Sergei gambled EVERYTHING on the assumption that the armor on his Tieren's arm would be too much for the blade. Setsuna simply used the weapon he had been equiped with from the start in a manuver that any pilot in any universe with beamsabers would do; take out the beamsaber and chop of the arm of anyone foolish enough to grapple like that. It doesn't require skill to do that.
Sergei's Tieren had armor that he knew carbon blades like the Exia's weapon would block. He did not expect or know that the Exia had a beam saber. Not in his calculations.

Exia, a machine with greater maneuverability than the Tieren, was outmaneuvered by said machine and overwhelmed until the secret trump card, the beam saber.

Sergei had NO knowledge of the Exia's abilities. Setsuna had knowledge of Tierens. Looking at this, Sergei calculated everything on the spot through reaction. Setsuna was forced to react with something Sergei did not expect. That is more brute force than what Sergei did.

Basic principle, Sergei outmaneuvered an advanced machine with an inferior one. Setsuna didn't outmaneuver, he bruteforced his way out with what was basically a trump card.

Had Setsuna been in a Tieren, WITHOUT the advantages of a Gundam, or if Sergei was in a Gundam Exia himself, Sergei would STILL outmaneuver Setsuna. He just has too much battle wit not to.

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The Gundams have never been "weak" against anything up to this point, unless you consider "aces surviving" to be "weak." Virtue, the slowest of them all, blew an entire squadron of Enacts from the sky in one blow; Lockon has routinely sniped airborn MS going at jet-speed from the sky; Kyrios has been death for flying suits; Setsuna ran down two Realdos that were already in jet mode.
See my points above about being "weak against." Fast suits allow ace pilots to survive, not fast suits themselves are especially effective.
I only said "are in some ways weak".

Look at the battles. Virtue only blew up the Enacts because the AEU didn't have enough data on the Virtue. Look at what happened to Virtue against the Space Tierens when Sergei knew about the Virtue's weakness. It got messed up.

Lockon hasn't shot down a Custom Flag that is moving at fast speeds. Downed by kamikaze Hellions.

Setsuna has been outmaneuvered by Hellions in ep 1 and was needed to have him be saved by Lockon from nowhere.

Kyrios was downed by kamikaze Hellions. Not fast enough to evade them when they get in range.

They've only been death against said units from afar, but when these high-speed units get in close, they are far more a hassle to fight.

Against Exia, they only need to stay away. Setsuna has bad aim.

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Depends on who, really. No one can likely beat Lockon in a Dynames match, and Hallelujah has been the most dangerous pilot in the series so far. The Thrones haven't been shown to be anything but good so far, and it's hard to see how anyone could pilot the Virtue better that leaves Setsuna, but even it wouldn't be clean-cut.
Comparable units do not mean the same unit. Comparable units mean MS that can MATCH the Gundams.

And Hal, while dangerous, has only shown bloodlust and has h4xx on Soma because he can read her moves ahead, not because of any actual ability on his own. Lockon's skill for sniping is unparalleled, but in no ways almighty.

Quote:
Agree, but a nitpick. Two thirds true: there's been no real indication that Graham has seen combat. Closest we've seen is Joshua's implication that Graham shot down a commander, which could have been during a training fiasco.
I'd agree, but seeing as Graham has been sent to intervene in Azadistan, there is a great chance that he's been sent to other areas before.

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Hm? I have trouble finding a reliable copy of the episode, but I thought that Sergei didn't so much evade the GN fangs as constantly get hit glancing blows before when one hit the backpack.
That was in Round 2. Round 1, Sergei evaded the GN Fangs with his Tieren well enough to get away scot free for Round 2, where Soma was also hit, but most likely because of her guard being let down by concern for Sergei.
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Old 2008-02-08, 01:35   Link #31
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sorry to butt in on the discussion, but I was under the impression that the reason Sergei managed to block Setsuna's carbon blade with his arm was because it got jammed in between the joints of the arm? Which is kind of ridiculous really, in terms of the amount of skill that would be needed to pull off something like that on purpose.

Just like melee weapons seem to have been portrayed as the only weapons that might damage a gundam, I see no reason to assume that a mere tieren could tank a hit from a melee weapon either. So my impression of that battle was that not only was Sergei not relying on his machine for victory, he actually improvised an extremely unlikely and situational defense on the spot.
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Old 2008-02-08, 02:51   Link #32
Nanaya
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sorry to butt in on the discussion, but I was under the impression that the reason Sergei managed to block Setsuna's carbon blade with his arm was because it got jammed in between the joints of the arm? Which is kind of ridiculous really, in terms of the amount of skill that would be needed to pull off something like that on purpose.

Just like melee weapons seem to have been portrayed as the only weapons that might damage a gundam, I see no reason to assume that a mere tieren could tank a hit from a melee weapon either. So my impression of that battle was that not only was Sergei not relying on his machine for victory, he actually improvised an extremely unlikely and situational defense on the spot.
Not the joints, the armored part of the forearm. A forearm guard of sorts for the Tieren.

And yes, Sergei did rely on his machine, but said machine is still inferior to the Exia. What Sergei used the most was experience, piloting reaction time and skill to get to that point where he was about to rip of Exia's head.

Even if people say Sergei used his machine to its utmost and relied on it, it doesn't change the fact that it's still way below the level of a Gundam. Specs alone, the Gundam defeats the Tieren way more easily than it would a Flag.
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Old 2008-02-08, 08:14   Link #33
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I think the Factions have managed to do everything reasonably possible against Celestial Being, with one notable exception which I'll get into later.

The problem with an entity like Celestial Being is that they always have the initiative. They don't have a terroritory to defend, they don't have a people to protect, they don't have any diplomatic channels, they don't have an economy or any international interests. They're secretive and space-based, with the apparent ability to know your every move due to being able to subvert our computer security systems and having numerous and unknown accomplices and informants spread throughout the world.

What we know so far is that they've got one ship that we managed to track down only after a number of extremely unlikely occurences took place. Namely choosing the right orbital path on the first try, their chief strategist being a stupid bimbo, and their computer analyst deciding to take an early lunch.

An offensive is essentionally a pipe dream due to the nature of Celestial Being. We can't track them, we can't find them, and we can't destroy them. We're nearly one hundred percent dependent upon Celestial Being making a mistake, which is fortunately one of things they're really good at.

Closing the technological gap is apparently impossible at this point, since the Gundams' technology is derived from a unique property of the planet Jupiter. That being the case, capturing a Gundam would yield no short benefits other than no longer having to worry about that particular unit. It'd take years to reverse engineer the technology and probably another decade to manufacture a working MS.

It is/was possible to bait them into a trap, but the effort was a failure and was 100% dependent upon Celestial Being taking the obvious bait and then proceeding to exhaust the pilots, while keeping the Gundams at arm's length with artillery fire and high altitude bombing. Destroying the Gundams with conventional forces (no matter who is piloting them), regardless of their number, may be impossible, and deploying WMDs into space is something of a can of worms...

Pretty much the one thing that the Factions haven't seemed to consider is the fact that the Gundams have never been observed flying into space, yet they manage to get up there somehow. The fact that it's been close to a year into the storyline and it's never occured to anyone that they might be using the Elevators to get Gundams into space is really, really farfetched.

Pending a traitor/double agent, or an extraordinary stroke of luck, the Factions will never be able to defeat Celestial Being, no matter what they do. The one glimmer of hope they have is the fact that Celestial Being is full of idiots, who are very stupid and arrogant.
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Old 2008-02-08, 09:37   Link #34
Dean_the_Young
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Minor correction: It's not that the Gundams themselves can only be made in Jupiter, but that the Solar Furnaces, the power source and source of GN particles, can only be made in Jupiter. Presumebly, since we now have the mysterious Thrones. Getting a gundam, though, would be decades worth of armor inovation, structural soundess, and a chance to analyze GN particles in-mass.

Similarly, the use of the Towers is something of a story-set limiter. The Powers do have security checks, it's just that those are near-useless with CB's current operation method.

Personally, I think you were being too harsh on Sumeragi. She has a proven record of analysis, and she even derived Sergei's entire plan and its implications within moments of it being revealed. It's just that she had no means to recall Tieria or Allelujah. It wasn't even a bad plan she made, just one that Sergei had a pre-planned counter for. Considering how Sumeragi's failed operations are a grand total of three at this point (one in the Union, the Space Capture incident, and the battle in the desert, though that was more of the Meisters being unable to follow the plan and any of its contingencies), calling her a bimbo is a bit overstating things.
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Old 2008-02-08, 09:48   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
The problem with an entity like Celestial Being is that they always have the initiative. They don't have a terroritory to defend, they don't have a people to protect, they don't have any diplomatic channels, they don't have an economy or any international interests. They're secretive and space-based, with the apparent ability to know your every move due to being able to subvert our computer security systems and having numerous and unknown accomplices and informants spread throughout the world.

What we know so far is that they've got one ship that we managed to track down only after a number of extremely unlikely occurences took place. Namely choosing the right orbital path on the first try, their chief strategist being a stupid bimbo, and their computer analyst deciding to take an early lunch.
Still, losing the ptolemy would be a great loss for the first gundam team. They would loose their "hidding spot in space" and be forced to launch from the base they have in the giant rock near a colony or to stay on earth.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
An offensive is essentionally a pipe dream due to the nature of Celestial Being. We can't track them, we can't find them, and we can't destroy them. We're nearly one hundred percent dependent upon Celestial Being making a mistake, which is fortunately one of things they're really good at.
Unfortunately for CB, thats true. They first gundam team was very criticized in ep 16, specially Setsuna, Alleluya (which the observers seem to want him out in the future) and Sumeragi.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Closing the technological gap is apparently impossible at this point, since the Gundams' technology is derived from a unique property of the planet Jupiter. That being the case, capturing a Gundam would yield no short benefits other than no longer having to worry about that particular unit. It'd take years to reverse engineer the technology and probably another decade to manufacture a working MS.
Well, if the nations are able to capture a gundam, even if they cannot replicate the GN-drive, they still can use it. They just need the technical info of it and use the GN-drive to fight the remaining gundams.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Pretty much the one thing that the Factions haven't seemed to consider is the fact that the Gundams have never been observed flying into space, yet they manage to get up there somehow. The fact that it's been close to a year into the storyline and it's never occured to anyone that they might be using the Elevators to get Gundams into space is really, really farfetched.
They indeed use the orbital elevator, hidding the gundams in the colonies construction materials, but like you, I wonder why the nations haven't taken any measures. Maybe they believe the gundams can actually go into space for themselves.


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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Sergei's Tieren had armor that he knew carbon blades like the Exia's weapon would block. He did not expect or know that the Exia had a beam saber. Not in his calculations.

Exia, a machine with greater maneuverability than the Tieren, was outmaneuvered by said machine and overwhelmed until the secret trump card, the beam saber.

Sergei had NO knowledge of the Exia's abilities. Setsuna had knowledge of Tierens. Looking at this, Sergei calculated everything on the spot through reaction. Setsuna was forced to react with something Sergei did not expect. That is more brute force than what Sergei did.

Basic principle, Sergei outmaneuvered an advanced machine with an inferior one. Setsuna didn't outmaneuver, he bruteforced his way out with what was basically a trump card.
I agree. Sergei would have destroyed the head of the Exia if it wasn't for the beam saber. But still, because you don't know about the gundam capabilities you have to take extra care and expect something like that. I wonder what would have happened if Setsuna instead of using the beam sabers shot at Sergei's Tieren with the beam pistol or rifle (I don't know if its a rifle or a pistol)?



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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
I only said "are in some ways weak".

Look at the battles. Virtue only blew up the Enacts because the AEU didn't have enough data on the Virtue. Look at what happened to Virtue against the Space Tierens when Sergei knew about the Virtue's weakness. It got messed up.

Lockon hasn't shot down a Custom Flag that is moving at fast speeds. Downed by kamikaze Hellions.

Setsuna has been outmaneuvered by Hellions in ep 1 and was needed to have him be saved by Lockon from nowhere.

Kyrios was downed by kamikaze Hellions. Not fast enough to evade them when they get in range.

They've only been death against said units from afar, but when these high-speed units get in close, they are far more a hassle to fight.

Against Exia, they only need to stay away. Setsuna has bad aim.
In the case of Virtue, true. The virtue's weakness is its relatively lack of mobility. If it was a high speed unit like the Wing Zero it would be a different story. In the case of the Dynames it had to be that way. Lockon HAD to miss against Graham, otherwise everyone would doubt about Grahams capabilities and evading and shooting down multiple Hellions its pretty difficult, even for a gundam. In the case of the Kyrios, when he was downed by the kamikaze, he had the missile launcher pod still attached, meaning a loss in maneuverability and speed. Now you are totally right with the Exia, but the Exia has proved to be a very fast unit. It will get close even if you don't want to.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
And Hal, while dangerous, has only shown bloodlust and has h4xx on Soma because he can read her moves ahead, not because of any actual ability on his own.
True, but isn't reading someones movements (especially a high mobility unit) actually his ability??? I doubt he can read Soma's thoughts.
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Old 2008-02-08, 12:38   Link #36
Terra
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Actually it was shown in ep 10 that he could hear her thoughts.
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Old 2008-02-08, 13:19   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Minor correction: It's not that the Gundams themselves can only be made in Jupiter, but that the Solar Furnaces, the power source and source of GN particles, can only be made in Jupiter. Presumebly, since we now have the mysterious Thrones. Getting a gundam, though, would be decades worth of armor inovation, structural soundess, and a chance to analyze GN particles in-mass.
Gundams use GN particles for everything, weapons, propulsion, communications, and even the armor. If you can't produce GN particles, you can't use Gundam Tech, meaning we won't be seeing any Faction Gundams until Soma's in her mid to late twenties at the earliest, and that's assuming CB doesn't come in and repeatedly blow up the research, something I'm sure they'd do in earnest with no way to stop them.

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Similarly, the use of the Towers is something of a story-set limiter. The Powers do have security checks, it's just that those are near-useless with CB's current operation method.
"Hey! This crate could hold a Gundam! Let's open it up!"

It's simply convinent for the story. No one in real life wouldn't have thought about checking the Elevators, especially after months of seeing the Gundams going back and forth between space. It's one of the story's most glaring plotholes and it can't be explained short of PIS.

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Personally, I think you were being too harsh on Sumeragi. She has a proven record of analysis, and she even derived Sergei's entire plan and its implications within moments of it being revealed. It's just that she had no means to recall Tieria or Allelujah.
Her mistake came from not realizing the operation was going to take place. Even if she didn't have a spie in Sergei's group, the 30,000+ radio recievers should have tipped off something was up. She was drunk and lazy and let it happen because she couldn't be bothered to pay attention.

She takes things for granted. Her job isn't even that hard, yet she's always acting like she's overworked and depressed. She even had the gaul to be relieved when the Meisters weren't defeated in ep. 15.

She's in the wrong line of work and the only thing I like about her character is her body.
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Old 2008-02-08, 13:28   Link #38
Terra
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You make it sound like she knew that the HRL had released hundreds/thousands of communication devices before the Ptolemy picked it up. She didn't, therefore she had no way of knowing they were trying to track them.
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Old 2008-02-08, 13:50   Link #39
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Terra View Post
You make it sound like she knew that the HRL had released hundreds/thousands of communication devices before the Ptolemy picked it up. She didn't, therefore she had no way of knowing they were trying to track them.
All she would have had to do was wonder why the HRL had ordered up tens of thousands of trancievers. That kind of order is very unusual, and as Sergei said, resource intensive. No doubt they have an operative in a position to follow military proporations in the factions. Anything odd like the one Sergei planned was something she should have paid attention to. She was too busy getting drunk to stop and think about it.

The kind of operation Sergei set up, it would have taken weeks to get it all together. Plenty of time for Sumeragi to take notice of it.
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Old 2008-02-08, 14:04   Link #40
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Only if she was given the information to begin with. Which there has been no evidence she was given.
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