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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 18 Rating
Perfect 10 199 69.58%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 64 22.38%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 5.24%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 1.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.70%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.70%
Voters: 286. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-02-09, 20:09   Link #241
kari-no-sugata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.
At the end of the ep, Setsuna actually gives the standard CB boiler-plate intervention speech - "X is a source of conflict, proceeding to intervene" (sort of thing) where in this case X = Gundam Thrones.


On a side-note, Johan's Gundam is currently missing a hand. That'll help Setsuna slightly - he doesn't know it, but he owes Graham (again).

It will be interesting to see how well the melee optimised Exia and seemingly very motivated Setsuna does against the Thrones (I wonder how much run-time they have left?). In the preview, Lockon is pointing a gun at Setsuna - I had thought initially that that could be a flashback to before Setsuna leaves to attack the thrones but since they're *both* in suits, I guess not.
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:13   Link #242
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.
One; Celestial Being meets the criteria for a Terrorist Organization. There's no ifs and or buts about it. They don't wear a uniform (bikinis don't count). They don't have the official support of a government(s). They don't actively engage in diplomacy to a non-violent end (Orange Suit working at the UN doesn't count).

You have to consider that if Al Queda could fight evenly with and defeat the American military, they would. If they could pick and choose their targets like Celestial Being, they would. Al Queda attacks civilians to make governments compliant to their demands. Celestial Being does the same, regardless of the nature of their targets.

Though I would say that Al Queda is far more legitimate as an oraganization than Celestial Being could ever hope to be.

And what Nena did or didn't do is beside the point. We're talking about Setsuna upholding his so-called "ideals" by effectively destroying the Organization that sponsors them with his rash behavior.
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:16   Link #243
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.
I agree entirely with this statement here. In fact, I'd say that Nena's actions make her worse than terrorists. At least most terrorists kill innocent people thinking what they're doing is right. (however mistaken they may be) Nena blew up the wedding because they were having fun while she was "working". What kind of reasoning is that?
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:17   Link #244
Tkpenalty
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
It seems that when people say CB they're referring to Setsuna's group, but I highly doubt they're the original CB or the only. Only reason we consider them THE CB is becuase they're the group that we began the series with. I think there are several CB groups out there with there own way to doing things (humane or not), but they all seem to have just one common goal: destroy the destroyer to stop the destruction. Their ordeal is nothing ideal, Setsuna's group have commited acts that would fall into the realm of terrorism as well, just because they haven't lately and the new Meisters are doesn't mean that they haven't. Basically the CB's are just a group of people with individuals who share the same goal, so if any individual felt their goal is threaten by those around them all hell breaks loose. The CB's may plan strategies professionally, but these guys aren't professionals, they're just highly skilled warriors with powerful toys.

Nena isn't punished by her group because basically all 3 siblings have somewhat of the same mindset but the way they display it is different. They're just battle hungry murderers. The oldest brother may act cool, but he's most likely the most dangerous of them all because he is so set in his train of thought that such actions are natural and unquestionable to him. Basically he fins it normal, while the other 2 murder out of anger and frustration.
I'd say that yes, the new meisters are part of CB, but they are more like ones who have defected from CB. Why? Their actions don't even correspond with the "Eradication of war".

Moreover something like what Neena did, is something that the real CB, wouldn't take ligtly of, Neena's brother brushed it off. If we compare what the new thrones did, to what the four meisters, you clearly see what's the difference.

The new meisters are also careless, example, neena opening the cockpit hatch (which setsuna did), and Johann letting Graham get away with the beam sabre and beam rifle. And finally, Neena blasting the shit out of the wedding, that just disgusted me, her siblings didn't do jack about it, why? Because they aren't CB. If the rest of CB found out, and if they were actually related, then she would have been severely punished.

Overall its highly unlikely that these guys really are CB, anymore. They may claim to be CB but many of these aspects make them look more like a band of terrorists.
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:21   Link #245
Chase
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.
I agree that
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:26   Link #246
sariss
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Originally Posted by Tkpenalty View Post
The new meisters are also careless, example, neena opening the cockpit hatch (which setsuna did), and Johann letting Graham get away with the beam sabre and beam rifle. And finally, Neena blasting the shit out of the wedding, that just disgusted me, her siblings didn't do jack about it, why? Because they aren't CB. If the rest of CB found out, and if they were actually related, then she would have been severely punished.
Well, Johann didn't let Graham get away with beam saber, it's Johann who run away from the fight for his life so he of course wouldn't care about the beam saber when he got his ass owned ^^.

And his beam rifle exploded a little while after it got cut off anyway so Graham won't have it for experiment ....too bad
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:26   Link #247
ThoHell
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Originally Posted by Tkpenalty View Post
I'd say that yes, the new meisters are part of CB, but they are more like ones who have defected from CB. Why? Their actions don't even correspond with the "Eradication of war".

Moreover something like what Neena did, is something that the real CB, wouldn't take ligtly of, Neena's brother brushed it off. If we compare what the new thrones did, to what the four meisters, you clearly see what's the difference.

The new meisters are also careless, example, neena opening the cockpit hatch (which setsuna did), and Johann letting Graham get away with the beam sabre and beam rifle. And finally, Neena blasting the shit out of the wedding, that just disgusted me, her siblings didn't do jack about it, why? Because they aren't CB. If the rest of CB found out, and if they were actually related, then she would have been severely punished.

Overall its highly unlikely that these guys really are CB, anymore. They may claim to be CB but many of these aspects make them look more like a band of terrorists.
Just because Setsuna's group chooses to stay within a certain mindset doesn't mean all Cb's are suppose to follow that same mindset. I am far from justifying Neena's action, I'm just trying to say to claim a certain group of the CB to be the real CB or the real CB ideal is questionable. For all we know the original CB's idea could of been destroy all, stay away from all, unite the world together by making us the enemy, etc. We don't know who the original/real CBs are, we don't know their real goal. CB history was rather left in the air.
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:38   Link #248
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
It seems that when people say CB they're referring to Setsuna's group, but I highly doubt they're the original CB or the only. Only reason we consider them THE CB is becuase they're the group that we began the series with. I think there are several CB groups out there with there own way to doing things (humane or not), but they all seem to have just one common goal: destroy the destroyer to stop the destruction. Just because Setsuna's group chooses to stay within a certain mindset doesn't mean all Cb's are suppose to follow that same mindset. Their ordeal is nothing ideal, Setsuna's group have commited acts that would fall into the realm of terrorism as well, just because they haven't lately and the new Meisters are doesn't mean that they haven't. Basically the CB's are just a group of people with individuals who share the same goal, so if any individual felt their goal is threaten by those around them all hell breaks loose. The CB's may plan strategies professionally, but these guys aren't professionals, they're just highly skilled warriors with powerful toys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
One; Celestial Being meets the criteria for a Terrorist Organization. There's no ifs and or buts about it. They don't wear a uniform (bikinis don't count). They don't have the official support of a government(s). They don't actively engage in diplomacy to a non-violent end (Orange Suit working at the UN doesn't count).

You have to consider that if Al Queda could fight evenly with and defeat the American military, they would. If they could pick and choose their targets like Celestial Being, they would. Al Queda attacks civilians to make governments compliant to their demands. Celestial Being does the same, regardless of the nature of their targets.

Though I would say that Al Queda is far more legitimate as an oraganization than Celestial Being could ever hope to be.

And what Nena did or didn't do is beside the point. We're talking about Setsuna upholding his so-called "ideals" by effectively destroying the Organization that sponsors them with his rash behavior.
This isn't really relevant to the point i am arguing. With "CB" i am referring to the "Setsuna's group" because that is as much as we have seen of CB so far, and they have shown a certain mindset and ideology they support regarding their actions and what they pick as their targets. Whatever label an organization like CB would fall under in the eyes of a neutral observes hardly matters to Setsuna (or the rest of them) when choosing a target they have classified as a threat now does it ? Point is: Nena carried out actions that essentially mirror (or are arguably worse) those that CB (or "Setsuna's group") have targeted before as a collective. They might call such pattern terrorism, they might call it conflict, or they might cal it hunt for eastern bunny; since when did the labels start to matter ?

Point is: As the executive part of CB we have seen up until now (thus representing the currently known ideals of CB, but even those don't really matter if we talk about the mindset of Ptolemaus crew) , "Setsuna's group" has responded to actions as such as Nena's with brute force. Whether this is hypocrisy and what is irrelevant; fact is they have found such actions inexcusable and targeted them before. Would forming an attack on Nena at least go against any of the principles they have shown up until now ? On the contrary: i would say it would be exactly in line with their currently upheld ideology.
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:42   Link #249
Deathkillz
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Nena isn't punished by her group because basically all 3 siblings have somewhat of the same mindset but the way they display it is different. They're just battle hungry murderers. The oldest brother may act cool, but he's most likely the most dangerous of them all because he is so set in his train of thought that such actions are natural and unquestionable to him. Basically he fins it normal, while the other 2 murder out of anger and frustration.
That's usually the case with silent ones

All three of them are psychos and they are just using the name of CB to do whatever they want. The fact that they aren't even registered in vader is suspicious...

Someone is out there using CB's name for some dark purpose...
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:43   Link #250
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Would saying "You're my sister, but you're evil and I have to kill you" have been inappropiate considering what happened?
Or even a Bright-slap, really.

(After she gets out of the giant WMD, of course.)
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I agree. Saji's not going to fight. He's a good enough guy to know he has to be there for Lousie now. Not running off on some mad quest for revenge.
Thumbs up! Saji =/= sterotypical gundam protagonist.

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They'll go at eachother like an old married couple with nerfbats.
Actually, I'd bet that the fighting goes on for no more than two minutes, but that's the price you pay for high quality animated fights.
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:46   Link #251
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Thrones will probably build new GN drives the real one blueprint.
Exia attacked the thrones after they attacked the base, it give him a slight advantage because their GN drives are probably going in its limits

Exia F88k them up good!
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Old 2008-02-09, 20:48   Link #252
Wesley84
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That's usually the case with silent ones

All three of them are psychos and they are just using the name of CB to do whatever they want. The fact that they aren't even registered in vader is suspicious...

Someone is out there using CB's name for some dark purpose...
I really don't see the Thrones using Celestial Being's name or in their name or whatever. It's not like there's any benefits from being a member other than Gundams.

Really, what they should have done with the Thrones was try to get in the B-Team's good graces and then steal their Gundams for their Solar Furnaces. Throne Gundams are...inferior afterall. It would have made sense at any rate.

Nothing about this series makes sense though, so I suppose it's expecting too much.
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Old 2008-02-09, 21:03   Link #253
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I don't see any indication that they are inferior

In fact, they're sporting quite a lot of high tech equipment that the previous 4 Gundams did not have

As for affiliation. We know that they answer to Laguna instead of Veda. We know they are coordinating their actions with an overseer who seems to know just about anything that is going on. We know that Halo knows Dark Halo from somewhere else.

It's possible that they are splinter group of the original team that founded Celestial Being.

Last edited by Key Board; 2008-02-09 at 21:14.
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Old 2008-02-09, 21:19   Link #254
Wesley84
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I don't see any indication that they are inferior

In fact, they're sporting quite a lot of high tech equipment that the previous 4 Gundams did not have

As for affiliation. We know that they answer to Laguna instead of Veda. We know they are coordinating their actions with an overseer who seems to know just about anything that is going on. We know that Halo knows Dark Halo from somewhere else.

It's possible that they are splinter group of the original team that founded Celestial Being.
The Thrones don't have batteries included. Hence they are inferior.

Oh, so is the idea that there was an original point to this series unfounded? It seems to me like they pulled the Thrones out of their ass. "Quick, we need a badguy since our "heroes" suck so much!"

So much for new age Gundam. All style and no substance. Just like the Matrix.
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Old 2008-02-09, 21:22   Link #255
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The Thrones don't have batteries included. Hence they are inferior.

Oh, so is the idea that there was an original point to this series unfounded? It seems to me like they pulled the Thrones out of their ass. "Quick, we need a badguy since our "heroes" suck so much!"

So much for new age Gundam. All style and no substance. Just like the Matrix.
Oh shut the fuck up Wesley. No one wants to listen to you bitch about 00 all the time...though that seems to be all your capable of.

I didn't like listening to you on seed-forums, and I sure as hell don't want to listen to you here.
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Old 2008-02-09, 21:43   Link #256
mechalord
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I can see Louise becoming an antagonist in season 2 .
Saji not so much , he is probably going to try to take revenge for louise and will get killed .
Both Louise and Saji are engineering students. We know her parents are filthy rich.


For all we know they are major shareholders in PMC Trust or own some sort of defense company. Louise may take over this company. Saji may go work for her or end up with the Union military.

Anyhow, since they are both studying to become engineers. . . they may join Billy's weapons program straight out of school. He needs assistants.

We know Kinue will be a target for assassination. Someone attacks Saji's sister and Saji will finally come out of puberty. Odds are vert high he ends up in a giant robot.

Anyhow, he knows Setsuna and may find out Setsuna's secret. Odds are all the meisters and Sumeragi's team may defect. They may need a new benefactor to fight CB.

Saji+Meisters+Sumeragi's team+ Louise's resources = privately funded solo Gundam operation.


As for Neena. She may have fired on the wedding 'cause it could have been part of their schedule. They have already assassinated one guy. For all we know Louise's father or mother were CB observers or major shareholders/owners of a defence company. We still don't know.


As for the next episode. . . Setsuna may get help from unexpected sources. Lockon may show up. Hal may show up. Tieria is pissed with the Trinity since Neena screwed with his baby, Vader. Tieria may want a piece of the trinity. He's pissed. Graham may be around.

Last edited by mechalord; 2008-02-09 at 21:57.
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Old 2008-02-09, 21:50   Link #257
SoldierOfDarkness
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It's kinda ridiculous how these two 'civilians' get their lives tangled up with CB.

I mean what are the chances?

The fact that Neena fired the shot specifically at Louise is quite disturbing. I'll be surprised if Saji or Lousie will be able to maintain their sanity.
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Old 2008-02-09, 21:54   Link #258
Wesley84
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It's kinda ridiculous how these two 'civilians' get their lives tangled up with CB.

I mean what are the chances?

The fact that Neena fired the shot specifically at Louise is quite disturbing. I'll be surprised if Saji or Lousie will be able to maintain their sanity.
Believe it or not, bad things happen to millions of people each day, yet most everyone is fairly normal. I think it'd be inspiring if Saji and Lousie reclaimed their happiness before the series is over, rather than turn it into something ugly and mecha-related. That'd truly make them the "every-man" the series seems to have built them up as.

Go the whole series without knowing who Setsuna is. Just this guy we knew nextdoor who moved out one day.

Hell, make him the best man for all I care. :b
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Old 2008-02-09, 22:03   Link #259
SoldierOfDarkness
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When I meant tangled up I mean the whole thing in general. Despite being simply civilians living out their lives, no matter where they are they always get mixed up with CB. The Neena comment was just another note on her coldness. I mean one shot was one thing, firing another one on her is disgusting.

Saji and Louise get mixed up in that space station incident where they get rescued by CB.

Next up are the terrorists attacks (indirectly)

Then you have Louise going to a wedding out in some remote part of the country where CB (Note I'm talking in general here by his perspective) just so happens to be passing by and opens fire on her.

Saji of course is completely devastated. All Louise has left is Saji and Kinue but we know where that's going with that Union pilot being shot.
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Old 2008-02-09, 22:05   Link #260
Tkpenalty
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Theres a very high chance that the Thrones will come back with proper GN equipment once the originals get taken down. Why? Remember when Nena was in the Veda terminal, after that, Tieria found out that the terminal had been furbared, in which he couldnt access Veda's level 7 security zone, probably the GN Arms plan. Nena probably extracted the data from the original CB.

Now the new throne's equipment doesn't really seem to be "better". The MS are equipped in a way that makes them rather inferior. The Thrones MS are more concentrated on offensive power, rather than defensive.

Anyway, Louises/Saji's situation. Yes, it is indeed similar to the GSD version where Shinn's family gets killed, however there are several differences. First off, Shinn when we saw him was in EP1. We had no emotional feelings for him except "wtf + angsty teen"= However, with Louise, we've seen her in many eps, carefree, and happy. Suddenly BANG. There goes her relatives and her arm, the fact that she is still alive also somewhat makes it more dramatic. I think this is the first ep where I seriously feel sorry for Louise and Saji (another why EP18 is the best).

Sunrise's writers didn't really pull off a cliche, like in older series- without any meaning. They made CB turn against the thrones, something that I wanted to happen after seeing what they were doing to the world.
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