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Old 2004-01-30, 09:40   Link #21
Briareos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
Anime never shows up on American TV either, unless if you think Dragonball Z is an anime...
What are you talking about? It's an anime. It's highly edited and rearranged, but it's anime. What about Cowboy Bebop, Gundam 0080, 08th MS Team. There have been plenty of only mildly edited anime on CN lately.

What are you really trying to say, that dubbing and mild editing means that a show isn't anime anymore?

P.S. I agree that OP/EDs should NOT be cut, and that fansubbers should never put themselves above the original artists (by putting their names on top of the actual credits).
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Old 2004-01-30, 09:48   Link #22
mirichan
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavalyn
Not to mention that credits have nice music and stuff that people want to watch, but...

give credit to the actual animators and artists! Those credits are there for a reason when broadcasting, not only to introduce any
THANK YOU!!!

I could not believe, reading this whole thread, that nobody had mentioned that. The anime you are watching was thought by someone, drawn by someone, voiced by someone, etc....

Sure I also like watching the OP/END themes because often, they are very catchy... but the credits are important! Okay, so I stay in the theater while the movie credits roll at the end while most people just throw themselves at the exit doors.

I just wish that the fansubbers understood that CREDITS for the creators are more important than giving themselves pats in the back and that they should take the time to translate the credits too...

Very annoying having to try to track a voice actor's name when both his character AND his name are in Japanese! [end fangirl rant ]
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Old 2004-01-30, 11:49   Link #23
Ballz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
Ads in the middle would be cool. They actually did that with the Sailor Moon liveaction; the parody subs were hilarious.

Anime never shows up on American TV either, unless if you think Dragonball Z is an anime...
We're getting a fair amount, actually. Nothing near the quantity of Japan, of course, but certainly a good deal more than just DBZ.

Shucks there's even a channel devoted to this stuff nowadays.
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Old 2004-01-30, 12:07   Link #24
lavalyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirichan
I just wish that the fansubbers understood that CREDITS for the creators are more important than giving themselves pats in the back and that they should take the time to translate the credits too...

Very annoying having to try to track a voice actor's name when both his character AND his name are in Japanese! [end fangirl rant ]
A few groups do this; We Suck at the very least does.
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Old 2004-01-30, 13:56   Link #25
zalas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavalyn
A few groups do this; We Suck at the very least does.
I wonder what the reason for this is... (that groups don't often do this)
Is it:
1) too much extra time to do?
2) maybe it won't be correct?
3) they don't care about the creators of the show?
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Old 2004-01-30, 14:28   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
I wonder what the reason for this is... (that groups don't often do this)
Is it:
1) too much extra time to do?
2) maybe it won't be correct?
3) they don't care about the creators of the show?
1) too much extra time/too much work (lots of translators can do spoken word but not written word, and especially not names, because there's a big difference between speaking japanese and reading kanji).
2) obtrusive - changing 4 character kanji names into 15 character romanizations of their names will block more of the video unless the names are overlaid on top of the original (ugly) and in a font so small it'll be difficult to read (also ugly).
3) difficult - a lot of translators don't know enough kanji to do that stuff, because of the huge disparity between understanding the written language and understanding the spoken language. Many translators have mostly complete spoken vocabularies but only recognize about a third of the kanji they see.

though I agree that (if done properly) the whole completely translated credits can look nice, there's far more ways to screw it up than to do it right. While I'd personally like to see it, it's not something you can convince many translators and typesetters to spend an extra couple hours each on doing every episode.
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Old 2004-01-31, 14:58   Link #27
zalas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
1) too much extra time/too much work (lots of translators can do spoken word but not written word, and especially not names, because there's a big difference between speaking japanese and reading kanji).
2) obtrusive - changing 4 character kanji names into 15 character romanizations of their names will block more of the video unless the names are overlaid on top of the original (ugly) and in a font so small it'll be difficult to read (also ugly).
3) difficult - a lot of translators don't know enough kanji to do that stuff, because of the huge disparity between understanding the written language and understanding the spoken language. Many translators have mostly complete spoken vocabularies but only recognize about a third of the kanji they see.

though I agree that (if done properly) the whole completely translated credits can look nice, there's far more ways to screw it up than to do it right. While I'd personally like to see it, it's not something you can convince many translators and typesetters to spend an extra couple hours each on doing every episode.
I agree with your points there, but if one does only the opening credits, you'd only have to do it once and correct it maybe every few eps when they change something. It's the ending credits that usually change each show. Now I'm curious, is the reason that a lot of anime translators don't do well with kanji because they learned Japanese colloquially? As far as I know, I don't seem to recall any Japanese courses (in Japan or elsewhere) that don't teach kanji. Besides, there's always kanji dictionaries
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Old 2004-01-31, 15:45   Link #28
complich8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
I agree with your points there, but if one does only the opening credits, you'd only have to do it once and correct it maybe every few eps when they change something. It's the ending credits that usually change each show. Now I'm curious, is the reason that a lot of anime translators don't do well with kanji because they learned Japanese colloquially? As far as I know, I don't seem to recall any Japanese courses (in Japan or elsewhere) that don't teach kanji. Besides, there's always kanji dictionaries
most of the translators that I've asked learned japanese because they lived in households that speak nothing but it...

then if they go to english-speaking schools and have english-speaking friends (so are in the US for example) they'll pick up a lot of the spoken and very little of the written language, and have no (or very little) real formal education in it but good fluency. Their formal education is usually in english.

Contrary to popular belief, 4 or 5 years of japanese classes won't make you into a translator. The best tend to be born into a situation that lends itself to knowing both languages, not trained in one then trained in another -- though there are of course exceptions.
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Old 2004-01-31, 16:02   Link #29
Machine-Gunner
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why do they do this to you....to piss you off :|
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Old 2004-01-31, 17:13   Link #30
Shii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
As far as I know, I don't seem to recall any Japanese courses (in Japan or elsewhere) that don't teach kanji. Besides, there's always kanji dictionaries
Dude, you're forgetting that kanji can be read more than one way. Usually when you first write someone's name in kanji, you also write furigana or pronounce it.

Seichi and Suck translate all the credits, and I have great respect for them for that. I could never do that, although I'd like to, as it'd take forever.
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Old 2004-01-31, 17:32   Link #31
Tellu54
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Why not TL Credits?

1.) It takes forever to place and style.
2.) Nobody reads them anyway.
3.) Thanks to the rather weird way japanese has evolved over the years, we can never be all THAT sure if we're even translating the names correctly.
4.) Generally obscures whatever images are on the screen.

Could probably think of a few others, but these just came to me.
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Old 2004-01-31, 20:15   Link #32
Tabiree
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
Why not TL Credits?

1.) It takes forever to place and style.
2.) Nobody reads them anyway.
3.) Thanks to the rather weird way japanese has evolved over the years, we can never be all THAT sure if we're even translating the names correctly.
4.) Generally obscures whatever images are on the screen.

Could probably think of a few others, but these just came to me.
It still doesn't call for a huge row of text reading "SUBBED/TIMED BY -{[:AJ:]}-KILLSHOKLOLLERS-{[:AJ:]}-" and "#ANIMEJUNKIES PRESENT AND PRESENTATION OF #ANIMEJUNKIES PRESENTATION OF A PRESENTATION OF #ANIMEJUNKIES...."



PS before anyone gets on the bandwagon, I am not attacking #animejunkies, just using their name for a bit of fun.
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Old 2004-01-31, 20:40   Link #33
Tellu54
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Credits for voice actors can be found at www.animenfo.com
If you're all that interested look it up there. ^_^
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Old 2004-01-31, 21:17   Link #34
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
Credits for voice actors can be found at www.animenfo.com
If you're all that interested look it up there. ^_^
Translating names accurately is near impossible. When making names in Japanese you can choose just about any kanji you want and give it any reading you choose to

Seriously, not even 100% native japanese people are able to read all the names with nothing more to go on than the kanji.

On a side note, it's not that it's a lot of work for the translator, but it's a royal pain in the butt for the typesetter to have to shift all those credits so they fit each week :P

-Tofu
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Old 2004-01-31, 21:40   Link #35
DekaMaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamago-desu
i dont get why the starting + ending songs must be included in [b]every[b] episode. i dont think it is nessesary because the majority of anime watchters skip it anyways (unless its the first episode). The starting and ending songs take up about 45mb of the dl, quite alot for people who need to conserve dl bandwidth.
so why?... xD..!

Do not use the word majority when you are speaking about opinion. You have no idea what the majority of anime watchings think or do
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Old 2004-01-31, 22:10   Link #36
Yaoi_Pocky
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Some interesting observations on credits T/L, by Tellu54 and Tofusensei...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
1.) It takes forever to place and style.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
On a side note, it's not that it's a lot of work for the translator, but it's a royal pain in the butt for the typesetter to have to shift all those credits so they fit each week :P
It really depends on how complicated the fansubbers want to make their credit styles, as well as how consistent the OP/ED credits among different episodes. Which brings me to this question - what is the approximate percentage of anime whose OP/ED credits change in text positioning and timing between episodes? (Naturally, alternative OP/ED songs also contribute to the complexity of credits T/L...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
2.) Nobody reads them anyway.
I do. /me is a seiyuu fangirl

True, ED credits can get rather massive - but I'd think most people would be interested in knowing which seiyuu did which character.

I do admit that translating the minor animation staff in the ED credits is overkill, though. (Currently We Suck only does translations for the seiyuu in their ED credits - no translations for the key grips, etc. I don't know about Seichi, though.)
(Edited to say: I'm not a member of We Suck, just a fan...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
3.) Thanks to the rather weird way japanese has evolved over the years, we can never be all THAT sure if we're even translating the names correctly.
Well, if the translator knows the kanji for a person's name (and s/he's lucky enough to own IME Pad for Windows XP), s/he can write the the name and search for it on the Internet for proper readings. Or visit the official Web site of the anime that s/he's translating for, cut-and-paste the name, and likewise do a search for the readings.

Of course, having no IME Pad or official Web site to help you kind of screws you up ^^;; as well as people whose names are spelled using unconventional/obscure kanji. (There exists 2 sets of kanji in Japan - the conventional set that can be used for names and words, and a set that is used exclusively for names.)

For the record, Animenfo's readings for people's names are not very reliable - for instance, they claim that BPS's real name is 'Shirase Satoshi' when it obviously ought to be 'Shirase Akira'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
4.) Generally obscures whatever images are on the screen.
The text occupied by OP credits is pretty small in general (at least for most anime that I've seen...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). As for ED, if only seiyuu names (as well as names of important creators of the anime) are translated, the obscuring-text factor is minimized. Of course, that depends on if the fansubber likes to put the seiyuu name translations in real-time (i.e. at the same time as they appear in Japanese in the credits), or if they like to spread the translations across different screens.

Last edited by Yaoi_Pocky; 2004-01-31 at 22:19. Reason: clarification
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Old 2004-02-01, 15:24   Link #37
zalas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaoi_Pocky
It really depends on how complicated the fansubbers want to make their credit styles, as well as how consistent the OP/ED credits among different episodes. Which brings me to this question - what is the approximate percentage of anime whose OP/ED credits change in text positioning and timing between episodes? (Naturally, alternative OP/ED songs also contribute to the complexity of credits T/L...)
Timing varies slightly as raws have varied timing between episodes
Quote:
True, ED credits can get rather massive - but I'd think most people would be interested in knowing which seiyuu did which character.

I do admit that translating the minor animation staff in the ED credits is overkill, though. (Currently We Suck only does translations for the seiyuu in their ED credits - no translations for the key grips, etc. I don't know about Seichi, though.)
(Edited to say: I'm not a member of We Suck, just a fan...)
We (seichi) translate the cast credits for Tsukihime and the ending song credits for the ending animation. (and yeah, we sneak our group credits in there >.>) With the way the credits are placed, it would be way too much clutter to put in more translations than that. And resyncing for every episode takes at most 5 minutes. (Takes about maybe 30 minutes or so to double check some of the new names)
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Old 2004-02-01, 15:33   Link #38
SirCanealot
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I'm not overly fond of hardsubbing MORE subs onto the opening by sugging the original credits. I like giving respect to the original Japanese authors, but it just obscures to much of the video. Especially when the original credits are huge and chunky, and you have to much that :/
I've seen it done quite nicely when the Japanese credits are nice and small though.

Heh, since we're using .mkv and softsubs I'm currently trying to poke our translator into doing the op/ed credits. Shove another .ssa into the .mkv, one with the credits, one without. This'd mean people can choose. It might be a nice little extra... if I can be bothered to time it -_-
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Old 2004-02-02, 08:34   Link #39
Briareos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellu54
2.) Nobody reads them anyway.
Like the original post in the thread (ie "the majority of fans...", this is your opinion. There are people who read translated credits, or stay until the credit roll stops at the end of films (like myself).

I'd like to thank all the groups who take the time to do it, and especially AonE on their Narutaru DVD version.

If obstruction worries you, then perhaps release a separated OP/ED with translations (which would only be feasible if they don't change much) and keep the RAW OP/ED on the eps with non obscuring karaoke(sp?) and title translation.
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Old 2004-02-02, 16:48   Link #40
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I only watch the OP and ED of the first episode usually then not watch them again for the rest of the series unless the OP and ED change, like in Da Capo.


But I must say that I strongly agree with leaving the OP and ED in. In case there's an OP I really like, I can just load up any episode and watch it with the OP and ED.
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