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Old 2008-02-11, 10:24   Link #61
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Explain why this particular girl is a dangerous role model. Then maybe I can tell you whether I agree with you.
Because, only few in her age are mentally developed enough to perform this role mentally unharmed. (Assuming that the girl in question actually is that developed and not just in a psychological trap that makes her believe it was love).
Besides, she serves not as role model alone, both the 30year old and the 13 year old are role models for that matter. If other adult people start to adopt the role of the 30 year old, because almost no punishment could mean acceptance next time... and start to think of the 13 year old as a role model for her peer group, they will apply her standards on other girls of the same age. Well I think one can develop this idea further for oneself...
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Old 2008-02-11, 10:30   Link #62
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin
Besides, she serves not as role model alone, both the 30year old and the 13 year old are role models for that matter. If other adult people start to adopt the role of the 30 year old, because almost no punishment could mean acceptance next time... and start to think of the 13 year old as a role model for her peer group, they will apply her standards on other girls of the same age. Well I think one can develop this idea further for oneself...
We're surrounded by "bad" role models. The problem with your explanation is that you've made a presumption of what is bad and what is good. 13-year-olds in her society may or may not behave like that. Regardless how they actually behave, do you imply that majority behaviour dictates what is good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight
Well, that's entirely subjective. It's up to her to decide whether, as concepts, "lust" and "love" are any different, and whether that difference is of any importance to her. Each person has his or her own concept of "love" and "lust", as you called them.
I agree it is subjective, but I think it is easy to come to universal agreement on what love is supposed to be. For example, actions taken out of love ought to be constructive in nature rather than destructive.
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Old 2008-02-11, 10:31   Link #63
BritishBearBoy
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Awwwww. Quite an age difference there though.
I thought it was against the law to have sex under the age of 16 anyway...
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Old 2008-02-11, 10:37   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Regardless how they actually behave, do you imply that majority behaviour dictates what is good or bad?
for most part i have to agree with this. besides, the court ruled to the man's favor, and at that time they were the majority. what's left is for everyone else to decide if it was good or bad.
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Old 2008-02-11, 11:25   Link #65
Slice of Life
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I just looked it up: age of consent in Italy seems to be 14. I suppose that judges in Italy are not allowed to pull their judgements out of their asses but have thick books labeled "penal code" telling them the "no less than" and "up to" for any given crime as decided by the legislator. I also suppose that the judge acted within his rights, otherwise the Daily Telegraph would have told us so and somebody would appeal against this decision.

It might be the judge has gone for the shortest possible jail term allowed. So I'm asking you: If not in this case then when?

Asuming that 12 years refers to cases of children being kidnapped, drugged, raped, and dumped in the woods, 16 months look fair enough to me.

Now why there's a general amnesty for anything below 3 years I don't know (if it's true at all, I have my doubts about this kind of journalism), maybe because people think it would rather prevent repeated offences than an actual prison term (not unlikely), or simply because the prisons are full (much more likely). In any case, this would affect every equally severe crime the same way, and not this one in particular.
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Old 2008-02-11, 11:27   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Phantasmagoria View Post
Age =/= Maturity

An equation everyone must know.
That's really only true up to a certain point. Age doesn't equal how mature a person acts, but it certain does affect the level of rational comprehension which, in turn, has it's own effect on maturity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaos View Post
And IF children in this age are NOT FIT for such decisions, than it's because they aren't educated to be it, because the law says they can not be it and everyone believes it, so noone tries to educate their children to be fit (and even if some do, the children aren't allowed to be free anyway) and then there come the scientists and observe, that the children aren't fit, so they affirm the law, which in the first hand is the main reason that they aren't fit. The whole thing is a self-preserving reality system. Just hypothesize the possibility that children ARE fit of deciding for themselves if you teach them good and let them be free.
This argument that the law says they are not fit to make this decision is based on physiology, not just arbitrary decision. The brain is the last major organ of the body to fully mature, usually occurring between the ages of 18-21. Admittedly, for some it is quicker, and for some it is slower however, no 13 year old possesses a fully developed brain. Within the brain, the last portions to fully develop are those that deal with cognition and abstract reasoning principles. One cannot logically argue that a child of 13 could engage in consenting adult behavior, simply because a child of that age does not possess the ability to see through that action to all of the possible ramifications of engaging in it. It's not just because some guy said so, it's because their brain is still developing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaos View Post
And I say, it's totally ok to love each other freely and truly no matter what gender or age. In details every action must be consensual of course, but if there really IS love, than there can be no non-consensual action, because hurting the other one or forcing him to something would not by an option.

It makes me sad how much hate and disgust there is just because there is too little differentiation between people who rape and abuse children and people who honestly love.
Again, I'd agree except that children don't possess the cognitive ability to understand love in all its forms. For them, it is an intrinsic emotion, the same as hate, fear, envy, etc. They can't differentiate between the complex levels that exist within all of these emotions, so they end up being misplaced. I agree that it is sad how much "hate and disgust there is," but I can understand the rationale behind it (despite not agreeing). Children do not possess the mental capacity to love in the most complex sense of the word, it's just a physiological truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The age of consent is certainly not set by rational analysis (i.e. neuroscience or psychological assessment) -- its set by what irrationally horrifies someone who has influence to set the law.
See above. Age of Consent is set in accordance with anatomical knowledge. Despite how mature someone may act, certain age ranges can only achieve a distinct level of physiological maturity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimkill7 View Post
A 13 year old is too young to make this kind of decision? Hilarious. That same 13 year old who was "victimized" because she was "too young" to understand the consequences of her actions, can and will be tried as an adult for murder in a US court of law. She is innocent of all consequence until she picks up that gun right? But hey, society is obviously correct in determining a child's age of sexual consent so it must be correct in determining when a child can rot in a jail cell as well.


P.S. Anyone who is saying "Disgusting", "Ewww", or "That's gross" should keep in mind that they probably would have been saying the same things about homosexuality 20 years ago. Nowadays, that opinion would be in the minority. I look forward to seeing you all 20 years from now.
Premeditated murder and other violent crimes have, I think, a distinct disconnect from the issue at hand here. When children accidentally kill people, they're generally tried as juveniles, and get charged with manslaughter, rather than murder. Children who make the conscious choice to kill, or who engage in violent offenses, generally recognize part way through, that they're doing something wrong. It's like the kid who wants the toys on the top shelf; they climb the shelves to get them. About half way up, they realize it probably wasn't a good idea, but they're already half way there, so why stop now?

The age of consent laws are meant to safeguard children from having to make complex rationalizations until they are old enough, both physiologically and psychologically, to make those decisions on their own. Charging children as adults for violent crimes is meant to punish them for committing acts they inherently knew were wrong, but did anyway. Just because kids don't possess the ability to understand the full repercussions of their actions, doesn't mean they don't have the ability to lash out. Any kid who commits murder has an understanding of what the consequences will be. The same cannot be said for a child who engages in sexual acts.

Lastly, I don't think this is disgusting but, like many people said, I think it is irresponsible. Any 30 year old should be able to recognize that a 13 year old cannot make coherent rational decisions based on complex emotions. What happens if this "love" doesn't last? The guy runs off, free of any guilt or feeling of wrongdoing, and the child is left to wallow in her own misery, because she's still "in love".
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Old 2008-02-11, 11:49   Link #67
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
This argument that the law says they are not fit to make this decision is based on physiology, not just arbitrary decision. The brain is the last major organ of the body to fully mature, usually occurring between the ages of 18-21. Admittedly, for some it is quicker, and for some it is slower however, no 13 year old possesses a fully developed brain. Within the brain, the last portions to fully develop are those that deal with cognition and abstract reasoning principles. One cannot logically argue that a child of 13 could engage in consenting adult behavior, simply because a child of that age does not possess the ability to see through that action to all of the possible ramifications of engaging in it. It's not just because some guy said so, it's because their brain is still developing.
Show me a proper unbiased study that points towards brain changes whose outcome can't be molded or modified by any kind of previous experience and I'll take your opinion as a valid one. If not, then I'll stick to my opinion of "morality" on sexual behavior being more an issue of yuckiness and/or pseudo-religious bigotry in order to safeguard a rather idiotic and baseless concept of "tradition".
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Old 2008-02-11, 11:57   Link #68
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor
This argument that the law says they are not fit to make this decision is based on physiology, not just arbitrary decision. The brain is the last major organ of the body to fully mature, usually occurring between the ages of 18-21.
It's a bit difficult to accept your assertion based on face value, because as far as I know, neuroscience has not yet been able to offer definitive conclusions on what makes an individual mentally mature. Sure, brain development has something to do with it. But apparently, by the age of six, our brains are as big as they will ever be, but six-year-olds are hardly "mature" by general consensus.

The difference apparently lies in how well adults (ie, above 21) are able to retain long-term memories and create linkages between them. In this aspect, they are better than children. In other words, adults are better able to think in context and to learn from experience. I referred to this article.

Be that as it may, there is a danger on relying too much on biological determinism to define mental maturity. After all, it's abundantly clear that adults don't always behave "maturely" even when they ought to know better. So much for having fully-developed brains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor
Just because kids don't possess the ability to understand the full repercussions of their actions, doesn't mean they don't have the ability to lash out. Any kid who commits murder has an understanding of what the consequences will be. The same cannot be said for a child who engages in sexual acts.
I think you just contradicted yourself. How is it that a child who commits murder, ie intentional killing, has an understanding of the consequences, while a child who engages in sexual acts does not? What makes the decision to have sex different any other decision, premeditated or otherwise?
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:36   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
If she were so mature, I would have expected her to think for herself what she wants for herself, not what the society expects of her.
If she were so mature, I would have expected her to think of the implications of living in society, rather than just what she wants for herself.
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:41   Link #70
BritishBearBoy
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Well as she gets older so will he. When she's a matured woman she'll probably leave him because it was either a mistake or that he will be too wrinkly and old.
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:41   Link #71
kitto-chan
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Ok after reading all the post support this man, I have to chime in. The girls is 13 years old. She doesn't know what true love it. Second she is not fit to be a mother if the worst should happen. She was delude by the man enticing words. Many of you at the age of 13 year old, hell even at 15 years old might have only had what you thought was a boyfriend/girlfriend situation. It takes time, may a few months maybe a few years to find someone you truly love. This is not the case here. I mean honesty for a 13 year, does she know what a broken heart feels like, does she know the pain of child born, or worst, does she understand the pain of someone walking out of her life. This is of course is not the child's fault in the least. I place full blame on the child's parent and the man in question. Actually not the man in question, but the man responsible. He should fully understand the implication he is placing on a child of that age.
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:42   Link #72
Nightbat®
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So

...most of the people are willing to hang the guy


...while you guys are at it, take a peak in the middle east where children as young as 9 years old
are wedded off to an unknown 50 year old geezer for 3 goats and a camel


Where are your ethics there?
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:47   Link #73
BritishBearBoy
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Indeed. Children at that age have no Idea about what love actually is. Its just what they 'think' love is. Believe me I have a younger brother who has, so to speak,' "Fallen in Love" and the day after they had broke up! -_-
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:50   Link #74
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Quote:
If she were so mature, I would have expected her to think of the implications of living in society, rather than just what she wants for herself.
Umm, right, because her sleeping with an adult affects society in an innumerable amount of levels... right?
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:52   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
So

...most of the people are willing to hang the guy


...while you guys are at it, taka peak in the middle east where children as young as 9 years old
are wedded off to an unknown 50 year old geezers for 3 goats and a camel


Where are your ethics there?
From what I've gathered, people are more inclined to believe that whether or not their own morality is against it, the legality of the situation in itself is the primary issue. However, I still think that, although the act itself is considered pedophilia in Italy (as well as many other countries), whether or not it is, in a universal sense, improper is entirely subjective. Furthermore, one can only generalize as far as law is concerned. It would distort things a great deal if a court took the time to get to know everyone who walked in just so they could adjust the law to suit that particular individual.

I think what's really getting people is the fact that the sentence was cut because of "true love" -- assuming, of course, that people still care about the OP.

Now, I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I don't particularly care who fucks who at what age or where they do it if it's consensual, whether or not the person has a sense of judgment. However, as has been pointed out, it is illegal. While it has nothing to do with what I personally believe, it's still against the law.
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Old 2008-02-11, 12:53   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
So

...most of the people are willing to hang the guy


...while you guys are at it, take a peak in the middle east where children as young as 9 years old
are wedded off to an unknown 50 year old geezer for 3 goats and a camel


Where are your ethics there?
What you are taking about there is more along the line of arranged marriage. Marriage that is setup before the child is born. It the parents fault in this case, I don't support it, but it happens.

The main reason for me resent the guy in Italy is because he lives in a democratic world, not a world where marriage is controlled by parents. The guy made his decision let him rot for it. Same with the parents in the Middle East.

Edit: I should since you brought this up. Let's take a look at royal families in the EU. Its not a marriage of love but necessities. Prince Charles and Princess Dianna wed for political reasons and to ensure that the line of heries are of royal decent. They are doing this for the public good, not for themselve. This man was indulging himself, that's the difference. Same goes for parent with arranged marriage. Once again I don't agree with the above completely but there is a difference.
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Old 2008-02-11, 13:05   Link #77
BritishBearBoy
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A world where age wouldn't matter would be much easier. XD
I mean did you see Van and Wendy from Gun X Sword? Thats a good example, in their world age didn't matter, signs of that popped up a couple of times over the Anime.
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Old 2008-02-11, 13:19   Link #78
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
We're surrounded by "bad" role models. The problem with your explanation is that you've made a presumption of what is bad and what is good. 13-year-olds in her society may or may not behave like that. Regardless how they actually behave, do you imply that majority behaviour dictates what is good or bad?
But some "bad" role models are more accepted since they do not influence the freedom of society too much. Since human education, is heavily influnced by copying role models, it is necessary to prevent role models that will greatly reduce freedom in the society if applied to many. Massively abusing children I consider as bad for the overal freedom of a society. So in order to prevent copying from a role model that can only apply for few and mustn't apply for many, one need to make it a less desirable one. Because a bad role model is only then good if many individuums decline it.
(for the sake of objectivity this sounds rather technical than emotional)

Last edited by Jinto; 2008-02-11 at 13:32.
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Old 2008-02-11, 13:21   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Heh.... we should form an act.
Form a government and make 13 the legal age.
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Old 2008-02-11, 14:49   Link #80
MihawkXGP
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If its consensual, then i really couldn't give a dam, what the age difference is. The only thing that matters is those 2, and not the view of everyone else.

If you're in love, you really couldn't care less what anyone else thought of your relationship. Then again, in this case, it is causing alotta trouble for a whole lot of people so....i dunno...
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