Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The 3 blocs HAD been feeling the damage being caused by the gundams. That's why they set out that military exercise putting forth everything they had into it and thus lost a lot in the end. What was it? 85 suits damaged, 200 dead. That's quite heavy casualties for all sides to take in. Losing just 20 MS is considered heavy in this universe.

By that point it was a do or die with the gundams. The fact that new fresh gundams have appeared just made things even worse. They could barely handle 4 gundams and now it's 7. The Thrones were just the tipping point.

The sad thing is that the power blocs had never treated Celestial Being as a serious opponent. If they had, the goal of their attacks would have been to destroy the Gundams, not to capture them. To my mind, it isn't acceptable to go from such a lackadaisical attitude to one of abject defeat.

The only reason that a couple dozen Mobile Suit losses are considered significant is because the power blocs hadn't seen any heavy fighting in a long time. However, the fact that even two-bit terrorist organizations could field decent numbers of mobile suits precludes them from being overly expensive. In the real world, terrorists can't even afford to purchase or maintain tanks or aircraft, so their expense should be at best comparable to much older designs.

For a total war comparison: during World War II, the Soviet Union built around 25,000 AFVs and over 40,000 aircraft in 1944 alone. In this comparison, the loss of 85 mobile suits is equivalent to just half a day's worth of production.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Except for one thing. A Tieren could be equilavent to an entire battalion of Type 69 Tanks(Which the Chinese field) and a Flag equal to an entire wing of F-22's. The only thing those terrorists field were Anfs (Which are cannon fodder), and those Hellions but we rarely see a full regiment deployed by the terrorists. Even Graham said he would be under fire for losing a Flag gun. True that they aren't in any heavy war but in respect these are still heavy casualties

And I believe it's a total loss of 285 suits if the dead are in the 200s since the only guys fighting were in the mobile suits(So 1 suit = 1 pilot) so those suits HAD to be destroyed or something. That Union pilot Kinue talked to would've fallen into the 85 damaged(wounded) category.

The sad thing is that the power blocs had never treated Celestial Being as a serious opponent. If they had, the goal of their attacks would have been to destroy the Gundams, not to capture them. To my mind, it isn't acceptable to go from such a lackadaisical attitude to one of abject defeat.

Probably because of their whole "Eradicate war without personal gain thingy with force"

[highvision]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The sad thing is that the power blocs had never treated Celestial Being as a serious opponent. If they had, the goal of their attacks would have been to destroy the Gundams, not to capture them. To my mind, it isn't acceptable to go from such a lackadaisical attitude to one of abject defeat.

The Gundams were new technology which the blocs had never seen before and remember the blocs don't have that great of a working relationship. Even though they're neutral towards each other, each one would want to achieve technological advantage over each other (kinda like the Soviets use of German rocket scientists captured during WW2 to gain an edge over the west).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Except for one thing. A Tieren could be equilavent to an entire battalion of Type 69 Tanks(Which the Chinese field) and a Flag equal to an entire wing of F-22's. The only thing those terrorists field were Anfs (Which are cannon fodder), and those Hellions but we rarely see a full regiment deployed by the terrorists. Even Graham said he would be under fire for losing a Flag gun. True that they aren't in any heavy war but in respect these are still heavy casualties

Why would you make a single mobile suit to be equivalent to so many other craft?

If you really want to crunch the numbers... If a small bunch of fanatics can build four Gundams; then, resouce-wise, it would be reasonable to assume that a nation with a million times the population and tens of thousands of times the resources would be able to produce at least a hundred times that number. Obviously, the power blocs don't have the technology to produce any Gundams, but since a single one is at least as expensive to build as a few dozen Tierens or Flags. That would give us tens of thousands of mobile suits a bloc; of which a fraction of 85 would be little more than a pinprick.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

And I believe it's a total loss of 285 suits if the dead are in the 200s since the only guys fighting were in the mobile suits(So 1 suit = 1 pilot) so those suits HAD to be destroyed or something. That Union pilot Kinue talked to would've fallen into the 85 damaged(wounded) category.

This is neither necessary nor is it likely. Any military unit will have many support personnel per war machine, so it's easy to have many more casualties in personnel than losses in vehicles. Also, as per military classification, losses of vehicles would be the total of all losses in a particular operation unless otherwise specified. Likewise, personnel losses are the total losses in said operation. One does not add one figure to the other to get a true total.

Originally Posted by highvision

The Gundams were new technology which the blocs had never seen before and remember the blocs don't have that great of a working relationship. Even though they're neutral towards each other, each one would want to achieve technological advantage over each other (kinda like the Soviets use of German rocket scientists captured during WW2 to gain an edge over the west).

My point is that they're going from not even trying to destroying the Gundams to talking about surrendering to them. One would think that they'd at least try the intermediate step. The problem is that such a step would interfere with the flow of the story the creators want to tell...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

This is neither necessary nor is it likely. Any military unit will have many support personnel per war machine, so it's easy to have many more casualties in personnel than losses in vehicles. Also, as per military classification, losses of vehicles would be the total of all losses in a particular operation unless otherwise specified. Likewise, personnel losses are the total losses in said operation. One does not add one figure to the other to get a true total.

I dunno I didn't see tanks, planes, or infantry fighting alongside the mobile suits (or was it even necessary?). None of the bases were attacked and the Union Fleet was left unscathed (All 3 carriers returned). I mean aren't destroyed and damaged two different things?

In CB's first operation, 185 soldiers were killed but we know it wasn't 185 suits since the HRL base and its carrier was destroyed.

Why would you make a single mobile suit to be equivalent to so many other craft?

Because their firepower and capabilites match that?

If you really want to crunch the numbers... If a small bunch of fanatics can build four Gundams; then, resouce-wise, it would be reasonable to assume that a nation with a million times the population and tens of thousands of times the resources would be able to produce at least a hundred times that number. Obviously, the power blocs don't have the technology to produce any Gundams, but since a single one is at least as expensive to build as a few dozen Tierens or Flags. That would give us tens of thousands of mobile suits a bloc; of which a fraction of 85 would be little more than a pinprick.

Perhaps, though the AEU stated that if they continue anymore fighting they'll end up bankrupt, guess even they can't replace their suits.

Even before the military operation one of the leaders noted that his country had difficulty in lending troops which obviously are the MS.

[Marsala]

One wonders whatever happened to nuclear weapons; certainly nuking the Gundams ought to destroy them, and given how willing Celestial Being is to walk into traps, it shouldn't be too hard to get them within range of nukes.

[Morgun]

You'd think at least one of the powers would consider going nuclear rather than surrendering. Preferably on someone else's land.


Doh, beaten to it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I dunno I didn't see tanks, planes, or infantry fighting alongside the mobile suits (or was it even necessary?). None of the bases were attacked and the Union Fleet was left unscathed (All 3 carriers returned).

We hardly saw all of the fighting and we certainly didn't see 85 mobile suits get destroyed - it's safe to assume that most this dying happened off-screen.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

In CB's first operation, 185 soldiers were killed but we know it wasn't 185 suits since the HRL base and its carrier was destroyed.

To what are you referring to?

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Because their firepower and capabilites match that?

That comparison doesn't fly unless you can demonstrate that the aggregate industrial capacity of the HRL matches that of China circa 2007 and that the Union's capacity matches that of the USA circa 2007.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Perhaps, though the AEU stated that if they continue anymore fighting they'll end up bankrupt, guess even they can't replace their suits.

Even before the military operation one of the leaders noted that his country had difficulty in lending troops which obviously are the MS.

Since we still know next to nothing about the power blocs, these could be in reference to all sorts of things. Alternatively, it's just a case of over-minimalism.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

To what are you referring to?

Whoops my bad, it was 148 soldiers.

The Battle of Ceylon Island. Kyrios bombed the HRL base while Tiera blew up that battleship(Why do they call them battleships?)

We hardly saw all of the fighting and we certainly didn't see 85 mobile suits get destroyed - it's safe to assume that most this dying happened off-screen.

Well Tiera's bazooka shot took out that entire column of Union ground suits which gave Kyrios and Dynames an opening. Then you had that huge barrage against the inital wave of Realdos. I'm just having trouble understanding it. I mean the obvious combatants are the suits so if there were any dying they must've been there and not back at the base (But its still the pilot)

Oh well if they lost 85 suits they lost 85 suits with 85 pilots dead and 115 guys doing whatever they were doing on the field died. I mean all the fighting's done by the suits and they obviously don't have space to stick a couple gunners in there.

[highvision]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

My point is that they're going from not even trying to destroying the Gundams to talking about surrendering to them. One would think that they'd at least try the intermediate step. The problem is that such a step would interfere with the flow of the story the creators want to tell...

I agree with the fact that the intermediate step should have been implemented and that is bad writing by G00's staff. Maybe the assault on the Gundams should have included a plan which would call for destruction of the Gundams if they could not be captured (essentially killing 2 birds with 1 stone). I feel that would be sufficient enough.

[06294086]

QUOTE :

If you really want to crunch the numbers... If a small bunch of fanatics can build four Gundams; then, resouce-wise, it would be reasonable to assume that a nation with a million times the population and tens of thousands of times the resources would be able to produce at least a hundred times that number. Obviously, the power blocs don't have the technology to produce any Gundams, but since a single one is at least as expensive to build as a few dozen Tierens or Flags. That would give us tens of thousands of mobile suits a bloc; of which a fraction of 85 would be little more than a pinprick.

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I've been wondering about this too...

Each of the power block consists of countries and their resources should be enough to at least build tens of thousands MASS-PRODUCTION type MS.

If production cost can be cut drastically with improvement in MS manufacturing
technology, even hundreds of thousands of MSes won't be a dream anymore !

Not enough metal ? Simply mine the asteroids ot the moon, then !

Too bad that there are no references to how much a gundam was worth in money
term compared to mass-production MS...

Another thing that does't make sense is how come pilots with ace level piloting
capabilities are so rare ? Each country have millions of people, it simply doesn't
make sense. There should be at least hundreds or thousands of them...

Super-aces might be rares, but there should be enough of them to form
quite a number of groups...

Even if their MSes cannot hold against gundams, they surely can at least stay alive !?

No matter how technologically advanced the gundam is, I doubt that each of
them cost thousands or more of mass-productions MS. Tens or hundreds are the max...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Actually I just realized something.

In previous episodes the Union president noted that the economy of the country was just recovering. We know that when fossil fuels dried up all of the economies collapsed with the remaining resources routed to building the solar generators and they were completed about 10 years ago.

So then AD 2306 China wouldn't even have the same economic might as AD 2008 China would have as well as the capability to field such massive armies. They may be tight on budget with the AEU even tighter since they are way behind the development of the towers.

[highvision]

Originally Posted by 06294086

Each of the power block consists of countries and their resources should be enough to at least build tens of thousands MASS-PRODUCTION type MS.

If production cost can be cut drastically with improvement in MS manufacturing
technology, even hundreds of thousands of MSes won't be a dream anymore !

Considering that the number of suits lost against the Gundams are seen as major blows to the 3 blocs, a couple thousand suits would already be pushing the boundary of reality in the 00 universe. The way I see it, MS's are the jet-fighters of the future (but being used as front-line soldiers).

Even with a possibility of hundreds of thousands of MS's, each one would be a major loss if MS's have taken the role of the common soldier.

No matter how technologically advanced the gundam is, I doubt that each of
them cost thousands or more of mass-productions MS. Tens or hundreds are the max...

None of the power blocs on Earth have access to this technology so a Gundam's worth is equal to maybe a couple hundred thousand MS's (probably more). Its like if Person A has a slingshot and Person B has a gun, if the slingshot is the best Person A can come up with then the gun is pretty much priceless. Its not a matter of quantity making up for quality.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

My point is that they're going from not even trying to destroying the Gundams to talking about surrendering to them. One would think that they'd at least try the intermediate step. The problem is that such a step would interfere with the flow of the story the creators want to tell...

Considering how a terrorist group was able to perform seven simaluteous attacks in seven different locations all across the globe, and then have that same group thoroughly defeated less than a week later after apparently one member was caught hastily fleeing the scene of a bombing, I'd say the world would be a fairly demilitarized and complacent place. Spines would probably be reserved for certain flying aces, not politicians who are expected to keep the peace.

And to whomever mentioned the lack of nukes, I think episodes 14 and 15 established that the World's stockpile of Weapons Grade nuclear material was being stored at the facility they Factions used as bait.

That's right. The World has outgrown the concept of MAD, and now uses the new MAR (Mutually Assured Ruination) system to keep the peace.

Kind of makes Celestial Being look petty doesn't it?

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I really wonder what CB's plans are (or whoever is making the plans at the moment).
At first they try to disarm everyone, and just as the 3 powers have given up and want to disarm, they get the most advanced weapons they ever had...

Me too. I hope it's good, but things like "oil banning" "surrender monkey atittudes" and "the most successful and most easily defeated terrorist group in history", doesn't inspire confidence. XD

I'm still kind of hoping it will all to make sense at some point though. It's not bad writing, it's simply an incomplete picture. That's what I'm hoping for.

[Paranoia833]

I guess it's a case of being the wrong target audience. To be honest I just think of the show as "That show where the writers attempt to introduce young Japanese kids to the bare-bones basics of international politics but mostly just tell a boy-meets-robot story" and watch it for the amusement value. Pointing out the creator’s lack of understanding on international relations is something one should do for fun, taken seriously it’s just going to cause headaches.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Paranoia833

I guess it's a case of being the wrong target audience. To be honest I just think of the show as "That show where the writers attempt to introduce young Japanese kids to the bare-bones basics of international politics but mostly just tell a boy-meets-robot story" and watch it for the amusement value. Pointing out the creator’s lack of understanding on international relations is something one should do for fun, taken seriously it’s just going to cause headaches.

Well, some people want the Gundam shows to be "realistic" or "mature" and flawless in this "mature-realistic" depiction, so that's the whole problem I personally just watch it and don't think too much about details. Just the overall impression counts to me

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, some people want the Gundam shows to be "realistic" or "mature" and flawless in this "mature-realistic" depiction, so that's the whole problem I personally just watch it and don't think too much about details. Just the overall impression counts to me

I simply want a show to make sense as is. What exactly is OO trying to be?

[06294086]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06294086

Each of the power block consists of countries and their resources should be enough to at least build tens of thousands MASS-PRODUCTION type MS.

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Originally Posted by highvision

Considering that the number of suits lost against the Gundams are seen as major blows to the 3 blocs, a couple thousand suits would already be pushing the boundary of reality in the 00 universe. The way I see it, MS's are the jet-fighters of the future (but being used as front-line soldiers).

Even with a possibility of hundreds of thousands of MS's, each one would be a major loss if MS's have taken the role of the common soldier.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by 06294086

No matter how technologically advanced the gundam is, I doubt that each of
them cost thousands or more of mass-productions MS. Tens or hundreds are the max...

Originally Posted by highvision

None of the power blocs on Earth have access to this technology so a Gundam's worth is equal to maybe a couple hundred thousand MS's (probably more). Its like if Person A has a slingshot and Person B has a gun, if the slingshot is the best Person A can come up with then the gun is pretty much priceless. Its not a matter of quantity making up for quality.

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Well, I guess that hundreds of thousands of MSes are probably not realistic but
at least thousands are still reasonable.

In the UC gundam series, I read somewhere that the federation and Zeon side each has tens of thousands of MSes...

Speaking about the "E-carbon" material used in manufacturing the gundams, I remembered reading something about "carbon nanotubes" which basically are
materials made from carbon where its molecule configuration is altered , making them much more harder than diamond, stronger than steel, extremely pliable and
weights much less than steel...

I guess this "E-carbon" (Enhanced carbon ?) are some sort of the enhanced version of this material

300 years from now, better version(s) of this kind of material should not be that difficult to get with low price with the advancement in technology, if the current technology already managed to produce such materials eventhough the cost is high...

Eventhough the 3 power blocks didn't have GN drives at that time, why don't
they use such strong material for their MSes ? It will make them much much
more stronger...

Anyhow, Since the 3 power blocks finally got the MS drives, technology won't become a problem anymore...

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I simply want a show to make sense as is. What exactly is OO trying to be?

It is basically as Paranoia833 said. A decent robot show with references to the current political situation that'd boost plastic kit sales.