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Old 2008-02-24, 14:33   Link #81
Uran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
By 90%, you mean 1%.
I meant to quote the author of the thread. He stated 90% of Anime go to the US. While i'm not sure in the first place, but assuming it's like he says, you'd reply to him

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Many shows get an international market before they get a US one or have failed in the US but are still running internationally. The US has proven a horrible predictor of overseas. This statement is slightly more true for DVD releases where the US is more of an accurate predictor for other english companies.
Ok, you owe me here. That wasn't completely true after all. Local companies indeed act on their own and buy stuff that are new to american market. But say American market is always a reference for all, isn't talking nonsense...

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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
....so it's to avoid something that doesn't exist?
well... how can i reply to who's so blind? Do dream well your happy life and be happy with it

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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Price is the reason. As they say, "You can't compete with free". And this is just too off topic for me to type a proper respose.
yeah yeah you can. With quality and affordable prices. And please don't try to put fansubber and piracy on the same level
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Old 2008-02-24, 14:35   Link #82
False Dawn
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Perhaps what companies should be doing, then, is picking a show early enough to get in touch with Japanese anime studios so that they can do simultaneous releases. Of course, there'd have to be some quality issues brought in, but if an English version was available (say, on a subscription site) at the same time as the Japanese version airs, then that takes out all the competition from fansubbers immediately.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uran View Post
I meant to quote the author of the thread. He stated 90% of Anime go to the US. While i'm not sure in the first place, but assuming it's like he says, you'd reply to him
I never said anything about 90% of anime, because I don't think that's true (there's too much crap released in Japan for 90% to be exported).
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Old 2008-02-24, 14:55   Link #83
Uran
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Uhm... ok sorry maybe i've had a squint XD ... let's cut it and reply to that "most" in place of "90%" and the substance doesn't change. k?

Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Perhaps what companies should be doing, then, is picking a show early enough to get in touch with Japanese anime studios so that they can do simultaneous releases. Of course, there'd have to be some quality issues brought in, but if an English version was available (say, on a subscription site) at the same time as the Japanese version airs, then that takes out all the competition from fansubbers immediately.
If Japanese companies would produce an english sub on their own (or willilgly dub), fansub would be cut off already. But nothin could be done with piracy. That plague exist beside fansub and it's not because of fansub.

Last edited by Uran; 2008-02-24 at 15:22.
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Old 2008-02-24, 15:59   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Perhaps what companies should be doing, then, is picking a show early enough to get in touch with Japanese anime studios so that they can do simultaneous releases. Of course, there'd have to be some quality issues brought in, but if an English version was available (say, on a subscription site) at the same time as the Japanese version airs, then that takes out all the competition from fansubbers immediately.
Yes, while that would probably have an effect on the situation, it would never happen. Companies tend to wait till after a series has been running for awhile in order to see how successful it is before moving in. Arguably they also seem to use the hype and interest which is shown by people watching subbed versions of this show to get an idea of how their market will react to it being imported. Maybe originally, when sales were still good, something like this might have been done for some of the series which already had that potential. But now a days, companies don't want to take a risk. Even in cases like we're about to be entering, where a number of well recieved shows are now entering a second season, companies wouldn't want to take the risk of picking up the second season like you suggest because there is still that mystery factor about what will be shown in the series. And, as far as long running series go, they're simply too far behind to be able to catch up.

This is of course still assuming that each company had the translation staff (read into it as you will), was communicating with the studio prior to airing, had the online framework already in place, and was able to advertise their services in a way which would get them noticed before any speed sub team could even release. Afterall, if nobody knows about the service, and has reason to use it prior to releases, it'll never have enough impact to even pay for its costs. It might actually make things worse since at that point subbers would be direct competition for their business, more so than now.
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Old 2008-02-24, 16:10   Link #85
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant0 View Post
It might actually make things worse since at that point subbers would be direct competition for their business, more so than now.

How many subbers would continue to sub licensed material if there was such a competition however? Surely if the companies used the same medium as we do, then a lot of the major fansub groups (and even ripping groups) wouldn't bother competing and all you would get is half-assed poor-quality anonymous groups competing - in which case, it wouldn't be worth getting the "free" versions.

Of course, this depends a lot on the quality of such a venture as well as the expense of distribution. I maintain that a subscription to a site rather than individual download costs would be a much more effective way of getting viewers - but whether this has a viable financial model or not, I don't know.
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Old 2008-02-24, 16:22   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Vagrant0 View Post
But now a days, companies don't want to take a risk.
What risk? Licences can be revoked, and more importantly, according to Gen Fukunaga of FUNimation, upfront licensing fees are a thing of the past now, meaning the licensees pay the original copyright holders an ammount that's based on their sales performance with predetermined schemes. I imagine the financial loss from setting up viable prelicences and revoking them later in the process would be minimal. Two months (that's the shortest interval between broadcast start and the first R2 DVD release) is more than enough to transate, time, encode, set up logistics and solicitation to release the R1 DVD.
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Old 2008-02-24, 16:43   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
What risk? Licences can be revoked, and more importantly, according to Gen Fukunaga of FUNimation, upfront licensing fees are a thing of the past now, meaning the licensees pay the original copyright holders an ammount that's based on their sales performance with predetermined schemes. I imagine the financial loss from setting up viable prelicences and revoking them later in the process would be minimal. Two months (that's the shortest interval between broadcast start and the first R2 DVD release) is more than enough to transate, time, encode, set up logistics and solicitation to release the R1 DVD.
Yes, but the case which was being mentoned was more like a tandem release. It would air in Japan, then it would be available online already subbed for everyone else. Even with flexible liscensing, there would still be that chance of things going wrong. With online releases still being such a new thing, there is a risk (or atleast a percieved risk) involved with such a venture.

I'd almost be tempted to think that the only solution to all this legal stuff would be for fansubbers themselves to start buying the liscensing for online releases. Afterall, they already have some framework in place, have a slightly better understanding of the market, and have the ability to release a quality product quickly. It won't happen for obvious reasons, but it is probably the only way this mess will ever get sorted out.
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Old 2008-02-24, 17:33   Link #88
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
What risk? Licences can be revoked, and more importantly, according to Gen Fukunaga of FUNimation, upfront licensing fees are a thing of the past now, meaning the licensees pay the original copyright holders an ammount that's based on their sales performance with predetermined schemes.
This is a VERY interesting bit of news, and it seems to go exactly in the direction I predicted before: The anime studios have no interest in letting the R1 market collapse entirely, since this would mean ZERO profit from the US licences. Accordingly, the licence fees and conditions will change, so that the market can survive. Let's see if more "full season in a box" releases come out, possibly even some without dub, only with sub.

Apropos dub: Watch this URL and weep at the howler at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7JxxFJ9vuc

Can someone tell me if this is just a mixture of laziness (failing to check the proper pronunciation from the japanese original) and incompetence (where's the quality assurance here, huh?), or if this is an example of conscious "localization"?

If it's the latter, ADV _deserves_ to go out of business, IMHO. Sorry.
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Old 2008-02-24, 17:44   Link #89
bayoab
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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I disagree; I'm pretty sure you can. Just look at how successful something like Steam is despite the rampant piracy.
At the same time you have the CoD devs saying how pirated the PC version is.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Wrong. Sorry, I have to disagree, those times are gone. As long as the perceived quality of a later release is deemed higher, and as long as the time difference between the releases isn't too big, it's not uncommon to have later releases net much higher download numbers.
This really depends on a number of factors including which series, which groups, how long the time difference is, etc. For a series like Gundam 00 where the good groups are consistently releasing a few days after the anon groups, people still jump on the fastest release. Speed subbers exist where and when there is a demand for them.
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Old 2008-02-24, 18:09   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
At the same time you have the CoD devs saying how pirated the PC version is.
Scuse me for being so blunt, but whiners always exist. The article is also talking about CD-based releases, not Steam, I don't see your point at all.

Fluffy points out - correctly - that people are perfectly willing to shell out bucks as long as the offer is fast, convenient and in a good quality. That piracy will still exist is irrelevant. The point is that you can make serious money anyway.

Quote:
This really depends on a number of factors including which series, which groups, how long the time difference is, etc. For a series like Gundam 00 where the good groups are consistently releasing a few days after the anon groups, people still jump on the fastest release. Speed subbers exist where and when there is a demand for them.
Also irrelevant. If the anime studios really tried, they could easily offer

1) superior quality (they have the originals)
2) instant speed (it could be released at the same time it airs)
3) convenient availability (make it steam-style or REALLY take a risk and offer open torrents)

It's really not like they couldn't. They decide not to. It's THEIR call. And as long as they don't, fansubbing won't go away.
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Old 2008-02-24, 18:35   Link #91
esfir
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well the question is, in my mind, exactly how much profit do the japanese companies make from anime licensed in america? is it even enough that if the anime industry in the US were to completely fall flat on its face, it would have any significant impact whatsoever (i am not including shows such as pokemon, dbz or naruto, but less known series that generally have never been and will never be aired on national television)? japan was making anime long before it ever gained any reasonable popularity in the US. i suppose what i'm trying to say is, the amount of money the japanese companies make from US licenses is directly proportional to how much i care about fansubbing negatively affecting the industry in the West.

another significant problem that keeps me from having any support for the US anime industry is the lack of quality. i remember many anime series and movies rented and bought, and wishing i could take back all the money i had wasted. it's the exact reason that i flat out refuse to buy any manga translated in america--the paper is bad, the covers are hideous, and the translations are generally subpar. before i had any real knowledge of japanese, i would purchase the original manga from japan, download the scanslations or translation of the series, and then follow along. i have seen the US licensed manga and magazines--they're trash compared to the originals. i like my nice glossy covers and my pretty thick paper. from my experience, anime is the same way. they cut corners and throw quality out the window just to mass-produce their products at the lowest cost. can i blame them? not really. but do i want to buy their product? well, not really.
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Old 2008-02-24, 18:40   Link #92
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Can someone tell me if this is just a mixture of laziness (failing to check the proper pronunciation from the japanese original) and incompetence (where's the quality assurance here, huh?), or if this is an example of conscious "localization"?


I'm going to take the middle option. That's a pretty big howler for anime fans.
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Old 2008-02-24, 19:30   Link #93
bayoab
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Scuse me for being so blunt, but whiners always exist. The article is also talking about CD-based releases, not Steam, I don't see your point at all.
Everyone who wants anime downloads screams against having any DRM. If the CD image of CoD is passed around to this extent, how is unDRM'd videos any different? CoD is even supposed to be controlled by a CD key and that article makes it clear how well those actually work. I guess it doesn't make a difference that the game is available on Steam too! (The article is comparing the entire PC version.)
Digital distribution only controls it until it hits your harddrive. Steam is DRM'd to hell and back. Many people on this board scream about the evils that is DRM and how you will never buy video that is DRM'd. And yet you praise Steam as a content system that works when one of the reasons it works is because of DRM.

Quote:
Fluffy points out - correctly - that people are perfectly willing to shell out bucks as long as the offer is fast, convenient and in a good quality. That piracy will still exist is irrelevant. The point is that you can make serious money anyway.
You may be able to make a few bucks, but what does it matter if 20% of the people viewing the file are pirating it? It's very clear to anime fans that price matters more than speed or convenience. As per multiple threads on this forum, half the people refuse to pay $1.99 an episode if it is DRM'd. When you hear stories from retailers of people looking in the bargain bins and then going "I'll just download it", clearly this is not the same as games.

Quote:
Also irrelevant.

It's really not like they couldn't. They decide not to. It's THEIR call. And as long as they don't, fansubbing won't go away.
Huh? How is it irrelevant? The subject of dicussion was speedsubs which you claimed no longer exist. I simply claimed that they definitely still exist and are a matter of demand now rather than every single show. This had nothing to do with the industry.
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Old 2008-02-24, 19:42   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Also irrelevant. If the anime studios really tried, they could easily offer

1) superior quality (they have the originals)
2) instant speed (it could be released at the same time it airs)
3) convenient availability (make it steam-style or REALLY take a risk and offer open torrents)

It's really not like they couldn't. They decide not to. It's THEIR call. And as long as they don't, fansubbing won't go away.

I agree 100% with Mr. Mentar. However in my opinion there are just too few shows that are worth, or 'deserve' to be fansubbed. The industry really is in the shitter right now.

As an analogy, I'm sure a few of you could get Britney right now if you tried.
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Old 2008-02-24, 20:11   Link #95
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Quote:
You may be able to make a few bucks, but what does it matter if 20% of the people viewing the file are pirating it?
OBJECTION! *Insert Phoenix Wright pic here*

People viewing the file and not paying for it do not, I repeat, do not represent lost costumers. That's a logical fallacy that's been exploited to death by the RIAA and it's just not true. See below for a perfect example.

EDIT: I usually don't care about negreps, but may I ask the person who did it what's the difference between what bayoab said and what the RIAA usually says? No, really.

Quote:
I agree 100% with Mr. Mentar. However in my opinion there are just too few shows that are worth, or 'deserve' to be fansubbed. The industry really is in the shitter right now.
Speak for yourself I myself have a pretty nice list of shows released last year, and even a couple of more that just started airing (January has been a good month ), that I would buy if the industry would promptly make it available to me at a sane amount of money. But no, boohoo, I live in a third world country, thus I'm a piece of shit that not only has to pay more due to the inflated prices in the US, but that also has to pay the import rate. Boohoo.

Beh, nice globalized world we have here.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-02-24 at 20:21.
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Old 2008-02-24, 20:21   Link #96
Dark Shikari
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
At the same time you have the CoD devs saying how pirated the PC version is.
One thing people don't realize is that the vast majority of the world does not have the money to pay for games and anime like we do.

In Eastern Europe, for example, its considered standard operating procedure to pirate software, games, movies, and music whenever possible, because most people just don't earn enough money to afford a lot of it without digging deep into their paychecks.

A lot of piracy is also spawned by restrictive DRM; I have pirated and/or cracked computer games that I already owned for this reason.

A great success story is Galactic Civilizations II, which was intentionally released with absolutely no DRM or even a CD key check; it was a bestseller and has been wildly popular in the genre ever since despite the complete lack of copy protection.
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Old 2008-02-24, 20:23   Link #97
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Quote:
In Eastern Europe, for example, its considered standard operating procedure to pirate software, games, movies, and music whenever possible, because most people just don't earn enough money to afford a lot of it without digging deep into their paychecks.
And that's the point I wanted to make. See me right here? Do you really think I would be into anime if I had to shell out that much amount of money? I'd probably look for a cheaper passtime. Heck, the industry complains yearly about the alleged 70% software piracy rate in Argentina and just doesn't realize that the stuff is just too fucking expensive for us to pay for legally. I just went to a Sony Store the other day and a single PS2 game was 200 pesos, when the standard minimum salary is of 800 per month. You've got to be fucking kidding me if you think people's not going to pirate it at that rate.
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Old 2008-02-25, 00:08   Link #98
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
You may be able to make a few bucks, but what does it matter if 20% of the people viewing the file are pirating it?
It would already make commercial sense if only 20% of the people viewing the file would NOT pirate it. You're making a typical circular logic argument here. If you want to stem piracy by making an attractive offer which is 1) better qualitywise, 2) more convenient and 3) faster - which is what we talked about - then you can't argue that this can't happen because there's this thing called piracy. Earth to bayoab: Piracy ALWAYS exists. The point is EXACTLY to make these "few bucks".

Quote:
It's very clear to anime fans that price matters more than speed or convenience. As per multiple threads on this forum, half the people refuse to pay $1.99 an episode if it is DRM'd. When you hear stories from retailers of people looking in the bargain bins and then going "I'll just download it", clearly this is not the same as games.
That's still too much, particularly for DRMed crap (loses on convenience). The maximum I'd accept would be watermarks, but that's it. Make it a subscriber model like the new video libraries which are about to pop up soon, for affordable monthly premiums. It might start with only a small fraction paid : pirated, but it would be a start.

Quote:
Huh? How is it irrelevant? The subject of dicussion was speedsubs which you claimed no longer exist.
You know, debating with you is kinda tiring. This was never the subject of the discussion to begin with, and I never ever claimed that they no longer exist. I pointed out to Tofusensei that it's no longer a given that the first release gets the most hits - because these times are no more. I can easily supply numbers to refute this claim.

My point was that studios have the keys in their hands to win on quality, speed and convenience, and on this basis could compete with fansubs just fine, even against the "fansubs are free" disadvantage. But they opt not to do so. Because they fear piracy. Which is kinda silly, because piracy already exists in the first place. But alas.
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Old 2008-02-25, 00:56   Link #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I pointed out to Tofusensei that it's no longer a given that the first release gets the most hits - because these times are no more. I can easily supply numbers to refute this claim.
On average over all titles?

Please do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
My point was that studios have the keys in their hands to win on quality, speed and convenience, and on this basis could compete with fansubs just fine, even against the "fansubs are free" disadvantage. But they opt not to do so. Because they fear piracy. Which is kinda silly, because piracy already exists in the first place. But alas.
Thank you for wording this so eloquently. I agree with you 100%.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-02-25, 02:33   Link #100
DryFire
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I present this for those who think competing with "free" is impossible.

The anime industry needs to realize what it is selling... it isn't the episodes.
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