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Old 2008-02-25, 11:48   Link #121
ender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I can also change the channel during commercial breaks. Am I stealing from the content providers there, too?
According to content providers, you are. Also, I read a few years ago that Philips was granted a patent on a device that prevents you from changing channels while ads are running.
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:14   Link #122
WanderingKnight
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In anime... cold hard cash?? You don't work in anime to get rich. You work in it because you enjoy it. Just like the fansubbers work spend their time on it because they enjoy it. The same is true with games. Most programmers are not rolling in cash.
What? I'm getting lost here. I'm not saying they're rolling on cash, but if their motivation comes only from their enjoyment, they wouldn't be complaining about piracy.

bayoab, I'm also going to go with TheFluff and say that you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. You haven't yet answered my primary point and purposely misunderstood TheFluff's statement:

Quote:
Would you mind explaining what you mean by coexist?
Coexisting means accepting that piracy will exist. Most of the people who pirate stuff wouldn't pay for the product in the first place, or at least, the market price does not concur with their perceived value of the product. If piracy suddenly were to disappear from the world overnight, it won't mean that the absurd amount of people pirating CoD will suddenly go to the store to buy it. If the CoD developers feel like whining about people pirating their products, they should understand that it's not because people are inherently bad, but because they don't want to pay that much. As it was said already, people in third world countries systematically pirate stuff simply because it's too expensive.

If the CoD publishers made more copies of CoD (something which is not expensive at all) and sold them at 10 dollars here, I'm sure many people would buy it. I know I would if I still ran Windows and I had a nice enough PC. How they do the math on their heads I have no idea, considering the price of production is near $0.

Quote:
According to content providers, you are. Also, I read a few years ago that Philips was granted a patent on a device that prevents you from changing channels while ads are running.
Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing till my lunch gets splattered all over the room.
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:24   Link #123
edogawaconan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
If the CoD publishers made more copies of CoD (something which is not expensive at all) and sold them at 10 dollars here, I'm sure many people would buy it. I know I would if I still ran Windows and I had a nice enough PC. How they do the math on their heads I have no idea, considering the price of production is near $0.
whoa. idea, programming, design, etc costs $0!
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:25   Link #124
WanderingKnight
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whoa. idea, programming, design, etc costs $0!
Nope, production of the physical product you sell is near $0. The marginal cost of increasing the number of DVDs on sale is practically zero.

(BTW, this means the usual laws of scarcity don't apply to these types of products).
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:33   Link #125
edogawaconan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Nope, production of the physical product you sell is near $0. The marginal cost of augmenting the number of DVDs on sale is practically zero.
well, you only mentioned "production" before

- and there's this thing called "maintenance", esp for online games (and server capacity, too)

Quote:
they should understand that it's not because people are inherently bad, but because they don't want to pay that much
In reverse, "when they can't / don't want to pay that much, it means that they don't deserve it" (doesn't work on bad products - but the creator will remember next time to make better product, hopefully )
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:34   Link #126
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In reverse, "when they can't / don't want to pay that much, it means that they don't deserve it"
Then why the hell are they complaining. "Look, there's a bunch of unholy peasants wearing the same style of clothes we are... THIEVES!". It's not stealing, people. It's not like physical property suddenly disappears from the store or from the content owners' houses. If people weren't going to buy it in the first place, why are they complaining?
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:36   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Then why the hell are they complaining. It's not stealing, people. It's not like physical property suddenly disappears from the store or from the content owners' houses. If people weren't going to buy it in the first place, why are they complaining?
because they need something to blame their own failure?
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Old 2008-02-25, 12:52   Link #128
ScR3WiEuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
My original comment was "almost always gets the most downloads" which we all know is still true. Let's stop arguing semantics.

-Tofu
amen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
@Mentar: Eclipse gets higher numbers because it's an established name, isn't lagging too far behind the competition, it's known for quality releases, and it has good distro. Your group is an exception, not a rule. Also:

1.) CLANNAD distro of the first speedsubbing group sucks. I remember one of your own guys mentioning this.
2.) Have you forgotten that people usually like to download two versions of the same episode, the latter being for archiving purposes?

Speedsubs > quality subs in numbers, nothing will change that, so ultimately bayoab is right here. Let's not throw around random facts just for the sake of being right.
amen.


and, Mentar, how the hell was that an epenis contest... it's not me who spends his days on this forum flaunting his knowledge and skills...
my comment was just something i noticed after years and years of fansubbing.

also, i would like to add that whether slower HQ or faster LQ groups get more downloads also heavily depends on the popularity of the show.
if the show is popular, people will want to wait a bit more for better quality. or rather, they'll simply download the release multiple times from various groups.
however, if it's a rather unpopular show, a later HQ release will simply go unnoticed to the majority of the leechers.
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Last edited by ScR3WiEuS; 2008-02-25 at 13:12.
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Old 2008-02-25, 14:05   Link #129
juggen
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Though about as many should feel the urge of watching this "great show" ASAP.
That's my view of "speed-watchers," that they simply don't care for HQ or just don't can't/want to wait some extra hours/days.
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Old 2008-02-25, 14:44   Link #130
cyth
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What? I'm getting lost here. I'm not saying they're rolling on cash, but if their motivation comes only from their enjoyment, they wouldn't be complaining about piracy.
The anime business is truly a money-making machine. The industry is outsourcing most of their production to Korea and other neighboring states, the quality of production on the whole is staying the same while the April season has seen a downturn in anime productions, and entry level genga animators are probably making less per hour than you. How is anyone except the advertisement monopolies in Japan making any real money off anime is beyond me. Or are you forgetting how most shows sell no more than a few thousand domestic DVD copies while American TV shows sell tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands (ads being their biggest source of revenue)? Face it man, you can't treat this niche industry as the movie, game, or music industries, simply because we're talking very slim profit margins.

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Quote:
bayoab, I'm also going to go with TheFluff and say that you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. You haven't yet answered my primary point and purposely misunderstood TheFluff's statement:
I think you're the only one persistently straying offtopic for the sake of nitpicking perfectly valid arguments.
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Old 2008-02-25, 16:26   Link #131
VincentRPG
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I think me and screw are from the same ideals of whats to be expected from the outcome of groups fansubbing stuff now a days.

NOTHING.

I like how everyone sits here and argues about why they fansub, whats the point.

The new teams that are formed now have destroyed the reason most everyone used to fansub and made this place into a warez scene of ddosing peoples pages and hate and sock puppets to get their own ideals accross about how much better they are than someone else.

How Lame.

Fansubbing isn't fun anymore, its more of a let's see how much we can get one group to hate another and if they do not release same day then they obviously are not worth the pot they piss in.


No matter what anyone really says, ethics of fansubbing are gone. Who ever gets out first wins. Who ever gets out second isn't any good according to most leechers and flamers all over the anime watching world.

Then you have the people who sit there and cry cause it does not have karaoke, or a sign is not done in afx, or blah blah blah. When did the fansubbers have to do everything you said? I love the comments on a site where the video is bad, so the subs must be bad. It just goes to show how narrow minded everyone is who watches fansubs or works on them now is.

I think we should have a united 'Fansubbing sucks and we shouldn't release anything' Week for all the fansub groups. But it would not work, someones ego in some group would have to be fed and they would release anyhow.

So basically, to me, there is no point in fansubbing anymore. Gaining praise from people who sit behind a computer screen does not mean jack to me. Download ratios are just a way of showing if your epeen is bigger than the rest and what does that accomplish. Just more hate and jealousy among the other fansubbers.

I will keep fansubbing cause I have people who cannot fansub themselves without me being there, so, I guess thats like the little positive light there is in fansubbing, being able to depend on others to help you out in your time of need.

But overall, what was once a positive thing, has turned into something horribly wrong.

I am sure someone will feed their ego and pick apart what I typed, cause that is just the way some people are.
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Old 2008-02-25, 17:09   Link #132
ScR3WiEuS
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true, true.

i'm not that pessimistic, but yah, w/e really.
i fansub for myself and for the people who work with me, that's all.
there are no ethics, there is no community, etc
the only difference between the fansub community and "warez," is the average quality of our releases.
i wouldn't be surprised if in a few years or so, nuking will become common practive in fansubbing too, once
the last vestiges of the old fansubbing scene are gone.
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Old 2008-02-25, 17:59   Link #133
juggen
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Well atleast some people might keep their dignity and not fall victim for the whiners.
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Old 2008-02-25, 18:54   Link #134
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentRPG View Post
So basically, to me, there is no point in fansubbing anymore. Gaining praise from people who sit behind a computer screen does not mean jack to me. Download ratios are just a way of showing if your epeen is bigger than the rest and what does that accomplish. Just more hate and jealousy among the other fansubbers.

I will keep fansubbing cause I have people who cannot fansub themselves without me being there, so, I guess thats like the little positive light there is in fansubbing, being able to depend on others to help you out in your time of need.

Okay, these seem slightly contradictory. If you say there's no point in fansubbing (on which, you've made some valid points), why does it matter if others "cannot" fansub without you when you've actually just argued that the whole idea is pointless?

I'm not saying either view is wrong necessarily - I just don't follow your argument.

And might I add, it's a little egotistical to think others "cannot" fansub without you. In the fansubbing community, I don't think any one individual is what would be called indispensible. Otherwise, the whole system would grind to a halt whenever real life issues (tm) came up.
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Old 2008-02-25, 19:06   Link #135
ScR3WiEuS
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he wasn't talking about himself as the saviour of the fansubbing scene, jeez.
he's talking that without him, others in his group or whatever will have trouble.
it has nothing to do with ego anyway. as a group leader you realize it all too well.
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Old 2008-02-25, 20:07   Link #136
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Okay, these seem slightly contradictory. If you say there's no point in fansubbing (on which, you've made some valid points), why does it matter if others "cannot" fansub without you when you've actually just argued that the whole idea is pointless?
I ask myself that every day

Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
And might I add, it's a little egotistical to think others "cannot" fansub without you. In the fansubbing community, I don't think any one individual is what would be called indispensible. Otherwise, the whole system would grind to a halt whenever real life issues (tm) came up.
lol there are tons of groups that will die (and have died) when one person vanishes.

The groups with the best longevity tend to have some redundancies.

But I digress...

-Tofu
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Old 2008-02-25, 21:22   Link #137
Irenicus
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As a leecher, this thread is kind of sad in itself.

Is it that bad, fansubbers? Like, seriously? Did you guys take all those criticisms (by all means ignorant if you want) from the vocal minority as something that most leechers really feel? I mean, you guys probably spend time on the internet far longer than I could possibly hope to do, and socialize on it a lot more; I'm sure the concept of trolls and whiners ought to be something everyone's familiar with, right?

I don't go to IRC and stuff, and don't interact with fansubbers directly very often. But whenever I do, I tend to be polite and thankful. Most people -- it seems to me at least -- are also the same. We don't go to fansubbers' sites and post thankful comment very often, true, and may be you guys feel sore for that, but sometimes, to me, posting "yaaay, it's out! [fansubber group] I love you!" every time a release comes out feels like spam.

Moreover, the "harsh" reality is, we watch anime for anime, and the quality "translation" [editing/typesetting/coding/etc. included] work fansubbers put out, while deserving of praise for effort and skill on their own, is quite frankly not the main focus of a watcher. The best fansubbers make their work seamless enough to not disturb the viewing experience, but not so seamless as to disappear into the background. E-penis waving only annoys viewers.

Mind you, we *do* notice the nice little touches and effort put into fansubbing sometimes. I thought BSS's changing karaoke colors to match the tone (even with the simple font, which I prefer) in the Spice and Wolf OP was really cool, and Eclipse, Shinsen, and many other groups always provide good subbing efforts that makes choosing a group from a series much easier at times.

As to why we take the earliest release first. Easy and simple, we are humans. I make no apologies for the fact that my anime cravings require me to more often than not download the first or second release of a "hot" series. If you guys feel that we are "ignorant" for wanting it and wanting it fast, and therefore undeserving of your work or supporting the "wrong" groups, sadly enough, I can't help you there. There's appreciative and there's ass-kissing; leechers are watchers, humans behind the monitor scenes, not docile sheeple.

Even then I tend to download speedsubs less than other people though. And many do download the episodes from better groups for archiving purposes, like some say.
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Old 2008-02-25, 21:41   Link #138
Tofusensei
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Irenicus, I appreciate your opinion from the outside!

It's really not that bad, it's all part of the game. It wouldn't be any fun if there wasn't any drama involved

Bit torrent really ruined things, though. Put everyone on an equal playing field. Before that it took a lot more work to be "successful".

-Tofu
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Old 2008-02-25, 22:07   Link #139
ScR3WiEuS
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@Irenicus

It's one thing for leechers to download the first release out and stfu,
but it's another thing when leechers get the first release out, thinking it's of a decent quality.
The problem with what you said is that you put translation and other stuff like karaoke on the same level in your argument. While having a nice karaoke is nice, it is not what makes a fansub decent. The truth of the matter is, most first releases of most shows are really, really bad translation-wise. Tricking the downloader into watching a fansub, where the translation is so bad that the story doesn't make any sense anymore, out of ignorance or as an ego-boost is something I think distusting.
Even if we ignore the very, very vocal minority of retards that complain about quality groups because they're not fast enough, or whatever other reason, it's still kind of frustrating.
Here we are, putting loads and loads of effort in order to produce something of the best quality we possibly can, and then being put on the same level as speedsubbers by a majority, not minority, of leechers.
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Old 2008-02-25, 23:11   Link #140
Blue_Mage
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Irenicus, I think most of us really do appreciate your point. Unfortunately, the vocal minority tends to drown out everyone else. Personally, I get an impressive amount of crap and flak from idiots, and I'm not even in particularly well known groups.

The greatest compliment I could ever get from a leecher is one who could tear my work (editing) to shreds, in detail, and be polite and constructive about it. I've had it happen to me once, and to be honest, it was a wonderful boost to my self-esteem. It's nice to know that someone who really knows what they're talking about would take the time to help me out.

Last edited by Blue_Mage; 2008-02-25 at 23:49.
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