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Old 2008-02-25, 23:59   Link #141
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
The anime business is truly a money-making machine. The industry is outsourcing most of their production to Korea and other neighboring states, the quality of production on the whole is staying the same while the April season has seen a downturn in anime productions, and entry level genga animators are probably making less per hour than you. How is anyone except the advertisement monopolies in Japan making any real money off anime is beyond me. Or are you forgetting how most shows sell no more than a few thousand domestic DVD copies while American TV shows sell tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands (ads being their biggest source of revenue)? Face it man, you can't treat this niche industry as the movie, game, or music industries, simply because we're talking very slim profit margins.
I don't want to derail this offtopic any longer, but I seriously don't get this. I never implied anything of what you're talking about there, the only thing I said is that piracy will always exist, and whoever is complaining about it (be it the copyright owners or the artists themselves) is obviously doing so because they want profits. I don't care if it's the middlemen or the artists, the money on the DVDs still comes out of the consumers' pockets. If it's not the artists, well, good for them, I suppose they're backing piracy 100% then?

However, it's still idiotic to imply that piracy means lost revenue, which was my main point and the reason why I jumped onto bayoab's points. I don't understand how anything you or bayoab said did anything to prove otherwise, though I honestly don't understand what's the part you're playing in this discussion.
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Old 2008-02-26, 00:39   Link #142
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I don't want to derail this offtopic any longer, but I seriously don't get this. I never implied anything of what you're talking about there, the only thing I said is that piracy will always exist, and whoever is complaining about it (be it the copyright owners or the artists themselves) is obviously doing so because they want profits. I don't care if it's the middlemen or the artists, the money on the DVDs still comes out of the consumers' pockets. If it's not the artists, well, good for them, I suppose they're backing piracy 100% then?

However, it's still idiotic to imply that piracy means lost revenue, which was my main point and the reason why I jumped onto bayoab's points. I don't understand how anything you or bayoab said did anything to prove otherwise, though I honestly don't understand what's the part you're playing in this discussion.
I tend to agree with you, piracy doesn't necessarily mean lost revenue, atleast in this case. If someone likes a series, can afford the DvDs when a boxed set gets released, and if the company responsible didn't screw things up, they will probably buy those DvDs even though they have already downloaded and viewed the episodes. People may even be more inclined to buy a series they have watched because they know what they are getting into. However that is a long term process. Short term, people are more likely to download a series and try it out, rather than pay for it and take the chance that they'll dislike it. In which case it does mean lower revenue, short term.

Regardless, it is a moot point. If they really wanted to, as already stated several times in this thread, companies could make up for their supposed losses due to piracy through other methods. It's just simply easier for them to do less, and point a finger at the internet any time they have a problem. They don't realize that by offering a comparable product, or making it affordable would improve their sales far more than any sort of action against fansubbers. Which I believe is the point which has been stated multiple times in the last few pages.

The question, and the one which is more in tune with this thread, is what would happen to the market if all fansubbers, however unlikely, would just stop releasing. What if there were no more people pirating, distributing, or even talking about these series outside of Japan until these series were exported? It was done this way before the internet. Although the views of anime as being something more than kids shows have changed slightly since then, how quickly do you think they would revert to those narrow minded views without subbers allowing foreginers a chance to view what shows are out there, and help perpetuate the markets for those shows? Don't the companies who buy liscenses and import shows actually owe a bit of gratitude to those who fansub for testing the waters within a given country? What about this role that subbers seem to play?
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Old 2008-02-26, 00:55   Link #143
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The sad thing is, us fansubbers (the good fansubbers) do and try to give the best tl to the fans, but the thing is, it's very difficult for the fans to determine which tl is correct or which is better since most of them watching the fansubbed animes are people who don't understand Japanese and therefore can't quite get if the tl is correct or not.

And it's not like the fansubbers saying "our tl is great" when they release will help because it's self-proclaimed.
Isn't there anyway for the fans ignorant of Japanese -> English know how good the tl for each fansub is?
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Old 2008-02-26, 01:03   Link #144
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that's a moot point too
mind you that the big majority of the downloaders don't even really know what fansubs are, and just download these files that magically turn up in their p2p program of choice.
then you have a lesser majority that just don't care or know about quality.
and finally a minority of people who have a clue about what group is decent, etc
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Old 2008-02-26, 01:24   Link #145
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Brand names counts more than anything else. Just imagine a good translator join YM and Eclipse, doing the same translation, and just imagine what kind of votes the subs will get on anidb. Even fansubbers themselves will watch based on reputation.

Also, I think fansubbers have been too much in ivory towers to see that many downloaders don't care about group names. The fans and/or fansubbers who hang around your irc channels might know the difference between good or bad subs, but not the people out there leading normal lives, who just watch the first sub that get posted on streaming sites, and borrowing anime from friends :P
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Old 2008-02-26, 01:35   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakbunnie27 View Post
And it's not like the fansubbers saying "our tl is great" when they release because it's self-proclaimed.
Isn't there anyway for the fans ignorant of Japanese -> English know how good the tl for each fansub is?
It depends on how you look at it. You're right, leechers will not know when "kakkoii otoko" should be translated as "good-looking guy", but is instead subbed "cool guy". But that's borderline nitpicking with English AND Japanese words. And not a real test of a translator's abilities.

A "good" translation will be noticed by leechers no matter how retarded they are (arguably the retarded ones will better know the difference). For example, the concept of manzai with the tsukkomi and boke interaction is notoriously hard to translate to English. The difference between good and bad translations is whether it makes sense to a leecher with absolutely no knowledge of Japanese culture. As a leecher, I see a lot of lazy translations that spells out "tsukkomi" and flashes a wikipedia link, believe it or not that does say something about quality that anyone will recognize.

It is a moot point, as ScR3WiEuS says. When I spend 2 hours translating a part of my VN that takes 20 min to play, I'm not thinking of leechers and what satisfaction they will derive when we release. As many of you said, you "fansub for the sake of fansubbing".
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Old 2008-02-26, 02:16   Link #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashii View Post
Brand names counts more than anything else.
...
...many downloaders don't care about group names.
whut ? contradiction?
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Old 2008-02-26, 02:29   Link #148
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Everyone should just release yellow subs for a week.
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Old 2008-02-26, 02:47   Link #149
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Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
whut ? contradiction?
My bottom line is the decency of a translation is generally judged by brand name for those who care about brand names, and speed for those who don't. As long as a translation doesn't have glaring mistakes that can be spotted easily by amateurs, it doesn't really affect the general opinion of how good a translation is.
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Old 2008-02-26, 05:22   Link #150
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How did it suddenly get so dark and gloomy in here? o_O;

Currently, I fansub for fun. If this should ever change significantly, I'll finish the projects I signed up to, look around for someone to replace me, and then take a time out (or leave). That's all. I sure don't plan to be chained to it, harboring resentment

About "perceiving quality" - this may be trickier especially for new anime fans than old veterans might realize. I remember that when I started watching anime, I always wondered why people seemed to be dissing this one group I regularly got for some of my shows. I could watch the episodes without pain and follow the show - what's the problem? It only occurred to me MUCH later that the nicely flowing English was guesswork to a large degree, and sometimes off to a content-altering degree. It certainly wasn't obvious to me before that.

Even nowadays, my only minimal language skills would be insufficient for a qualified judgment (unless the errors were REALLY blatant), so whenever I watch releases from new groups, I tend to only assess the technical merit (quality of the encode, sign quality, timing, typos/grammar in the script), and here I had to learn to distinguish good from bad over a longer time. Many newer fans would have difficulties to come to a _fair_ conclusion here. I know for sure that I did.

Most groups which stay active long enough to achieve some kind of name recognition tend to be on the better end of the scale. And - let's not be kidding ourselves - even most of the less-than-glorious releases usually also enable the viewer to do what he intends to do: to enjoy anime and watch the show in question. And usually, even a flawed release generally enables the fan to do that. If this is all he desires, why scoff at him for "picking poor quality, just because it's the first release out"? The community provided him with what was important to him. It's not like he insulted later, better releases by doing so. At least, that's how I see it.
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Old 2008-02-26, 06:14   Link #151
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meh, i don't think any of us really resent the leechers who get whatever release is out first.
it's more like... pent up frustration.
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Old 2008-02-26, 06:28   Link #152
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
However, it's still idiotic to imply that piracy means lost revenue, which was my main point and the reason why I jumped onto bayoab's points. I don't understand how anything you or bayoab said did anything to prove otherwise, though I honestly don't understand what's the part you're playing in this discussion.
You don't understand a lot of things, it seems. We get that piracy will always exist and that you mustn't run your business without taking it into the account (nobody was arguing otherwise), but I would like to make a case for the anime companies anyway. At first the companies were faced with some piracy (IRC, P2P, BitTorrent), but now we have video services such as YouTube that gained mainstream media recognition. Yes, this isn't just a case of rapid piracy growth, this signifies ground-breaking social changes that are taking place in the western world, and so it'll take ground-breaking video distribution changes if they want to monetize new technologies. This means taking on the advertisers and taking down the current TV-centric business models. Not. An. Easy. Task. Now, arguing how much money is lost through digital piracy is pointless, but there are other aspects of piracy that are probably more troublesome to anime companies. That is the devaluation and loss of control over their products. Partially, anime copyright holders cannot demand upfront licensing fees anymore because of this. In the eyes of casual anime consumers, anime has never been a leisure product, but that mentality is spreading across the fandom. Piracy wasn't the only culprit here, but to say piracy isn't to blame at all is nothing short of being delusional.
The problem is you people are so aggressive to punt anime companies as if they were the trend makers. No, they will make their move to new distribution models that will have been tested by bigger entertainment industries. As niche as the anime industry is, they have to practice caution more than any other entertainment industry.
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Old 2008-02-26, 07:20   Link #153
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Quote:
This means taking on the advertisers and taking down the current TV-centric business models. Not. An. Easy. Task. Now, arguing how much money is lost through digital piracy is pointless, but there are other aspects of piracy that are probably more troublesome to anime companies. That is the devaluation and loss of control over their products. Partially, anime copyright holders cannot demand upfront licensing fees anymore because of this. In the eyes of casual anime consumers, anime has never been a leisure product, but that mentality is spreading across the fandom. Piracy wasn't the only culprit here, but to say piracy isn't to blame at all is nothing short of being delusional.
That is a problem that is facing the entertainment industry in general, and hopefully it will lead to the death of the middlemen (distribution companies) in areas like music. It's harder to apply it to anime, on the other hand, because the chain of production is different and it takes a lot of people to do it.

I still think companies are to blame for their sudden blitzes against illegal downloading (MFI comes to mind) because they represent an opportunity they aren't taking advantage of and which they're tackling with an idiotic mentality. Of course, you say they're waiting for the rest of the entertainment industry, and that's probably right, but nothing stops them from trying out new things anyways.

I'm still going to pirate anime and software in general until companies offer it to me locally at a decent rate. Until then, screw them.
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Old 2008-02-26, 09:58   Link #154
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What? I'm getting lost here. I'm not saying they're rolling on cash, but if their motivation comes only from their enjoyment, they wouldn't be complaining about piracy.
Because in the end, you need to make money to pay the bills. If your studio cannot make a profit or break near even on a show, your studio may start outsourcing the work or may close. If the studio can't make a profit, the studio can't pay you. If you don't get paid, you can't pay the bills. You may be willing to do the work for free or less, but in the end, you need to make money somehow.

Your argument is entirely "My country is too poor to afford it therefore piracy isn't affecting sales." What about the other 100 peers on bittorrent? Ever notice how many are from Japan? Quite a few. Are they poor or just being cheap? (And I already proved an example of piracy = lost revenue twice in the form of official vs unofficial sites but you shrugged them off.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant0 View Post
Although the views of anime as being something more than kids shows have changed slightly since then, how quickly do you think they would revert to those narrow minded views without subbers allowing foreginers a chance to view what shows are out there, and help perpetuate the markets for those shows? Don't the companies who buy liscenses and import shows actually owe a bit of gratitude to those who fansub for testing the waters within a given country? What about this role that subbers seem to play?
Why would it revert? How does that logically follow at all? It isn't like the market is suddenly going to drastically change just because piracy is or isn't there. In the end, DVD sales are what drive the market and DVD sales are what will decide what the companies do.
That said, companies don't need fansubbers. They can accurately predict how the majority of shows will do before they even air. The only thing fansubbers are good at showing are the surprise breakouts like Haruhi (and even that one didn't sell well at all compared to its download numbers). I don't think any fansubbers really believe they are helping a company to test the waters anymore.

Last edited by bayoab; 2008-02-26 at 10:10.
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Old 2008-02-26, 10:28   Link #155
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What about the other 100 peers on bittorrent? Ever notice how many are from Japan? Quite a few. Are they poor or just being cheap?
Have you any way of proving they're not buying because they're cheap? Or might it be because it's too expensive? Either way, take piracy away, and there's no guarantee that these guys will actually go and buy the DVDs. That's the logical fallacy.

Quote:
(And I already proved an example of piracy = lost revenue twice in the form of official vs unofficial sites but you shrugged them off.)
Okay, so now I'm stealing from the content providers because I switch channels in commercial breaks.

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Because in the end, you need to make money to pay the bills. If your studio cannot make a profit or break near even on a show, your studio may start outsourcing the work or may close. If the studio can't make a profit, the studio can't pay you. If you don't get paid, you can't pay the bills. You may be willing to do the work for free or less, but in the end, you need to make money somehow.
That's going in circles. I said first "the only motivation people doing anime should have is the cash in their bank accounts". You said "in anime?!". I said what you quoted, and now you reply back saying that money is a motivation after all.

I'm getting lost in the discussion here. My original point was that, if you take piracy away, the percentage of the population illegally copying files won't automagically add to the amount of DVD buyers, not even in first world countries. That is false, no matter what you say, no matter how you want to picture it.
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Old 2008-02-26, 11:09   Link #156
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Okay, so now I'm stealing from the content providers because I switch channels in commercial breaks.
Yes, of course.

Seriously: This is only another symptom of a situation going Kafka. What we have is a system of rules that is not accepted anymore by the society. And probably never was, it's just that it's only now that it can be circumvented.

At the moment people try to upheld it via
1. state control (e.g. monitoring your communication)
2. pushing ridiculous moral rules ("support your industry by watching the commercials")

Looking at history I'm quite sure how this will end in the medium term, the question is just what price we will have to pay in the meantime.

It's very enlightening BTW to see that the greatest enemy of a business modell is not the ebil fansubber, but another business model (c/o youtube).
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Old 2008-02-26, 11:25   Link #157
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It's very enlightening BTW to see that the greatest enemy of a business modell is not the ebil fansubber, but another business model (c/o youtube).
I don't think I would even count Youtube as a direct competitor. If anything, it's only a clear demonstration of how most copyright infringement is actually pretty casual stuff. Most of the people that watch things off the craptastic quality Youtube offers aren't really going to bother with forking over 30-40 dollars for a 5-episode DVD, even if Youtube didn't exist. Same with people in Japan and Niconico.
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Old 2008-02-26, 11:44   Link #158
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Okay, so now I'm stealing from the content providers because I switch channels in commercial breaks.
*facepalm*
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Old 2008-02-26, 11:58   Link #159
juggen
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
That said, companies don't need fansubbers. They can accurately predict how the majority of shows will do before they even air. The only thing fansubbers are good at showing are the surprise breakouts like Haruhi (and even that one didn't sell well at all compared to its download numbers). I don't think any fansubbers really believe they are helping a company to test the waters anymore.
That's bs. They can't know more than any fansubber, and we have all seen how bad some shows can actually turn out to be.

And you can't mean you've never heard of "Try before you buy"?
I can't speak for everyone though, but who spend 30$ on something they don't know jack about?
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Old 2008-02-26, 14:30   Link #160
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Why would it revert? How does that logically follow at all? It isn't like the market is suddenly going to drastically change just because piracy is or isn't there. In the end, DVD sales are what drive the market and DVD sales are what will decide what the companies do.
It would revert because there wouldn't be all these places people outside of japan could go to talk about new anime, and develop a buzz about those series. Take a look around here for a moment, many of the threads which discuss anime are in fact indicative of how many people happen to watch that sort of anime. If all that were to disappear overnight, some of those series which are good, wouldn't have gotten noticed because there wouldn't be as many people interested in it. And I wouldn't be supprised if the foreign discussions of such anime were getting noticed by Japanese viewers who might be more tempted to see what all those other people are talking about.

Without this infomation, or the push for these series to be picked up for later seasons, or to be exported overseas would probably be alot less. Since there would be fewer anime being spoken about, companies may decide to focus more on their most reliable viewer base (kids shows), and ignore everything that can't be converted to kid friendly TV. If you look, the growing markets for mature (not hentai) anime actually seem so coincide with the rise of the fansubber and the world wide exposure that these series get now.
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