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View Poll Results: True Tears - Episode 8 Rating
Perfect 10 41 30.60%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 29.10%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 38 28.36%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 8.21%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.49%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.75%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.75%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.75%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-02-28, 10:59   Link #221
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
You see it as a healthy build up of childhood friendship blossoming into love. I and currently Shin sees it as sister snogging.
I didn't know you could read Shin's mind, please bestow upon me more of this knowledge oh great mind reader. What you think is not necessarily what Shin thinks, especially since we've been shown near nothing of it and we are not omnipotent. So please, don't say what he thinks as if it were the purest of facts.

Quote:
How are you interperating these scenes? From Ai's PoV? From Shin's? Personally I'm trying to do it from both, but since the story is Shin centric its rather hard to know where Ai is coming from apart from guessing.
I answered that before, and it was both PoV through my own jaded PoV. How is it hard to tell where Ai is coming from? That was the point of the flashbacks/scenes involving her, if you couldn't pull that from the scenes then you may as well have skipped them. Also, everything here is about guessing, neither of us can read minds, its all a matter of how one interprets what is shown. So stop saying things as if they were the be all end all of truth.

Quote:
I've read your and others arguments on how the poor Virgin Mary aka Aiko was bullied by the foolish mis-guided Shin who was corrupted by the evil satanic Noe, her succubus sibling and her legions of merciless manipulative chickens. You know what, none of it makes sense unless I squint really hard and ignore the other characters apart from Aiko and wave the Ai forever banner.
Straw man again, your turning my words into an exaggerated piece of art. I've already said Ai is at fault too (so no Virgin Mary), you have yet to show me any evidence that Shin was not equally/partly guilty in what happened in the flashback (therefore in a way 'bullied' her into accepting to use your words), and finally scheming Noe... hardly. Scheming Jun? Sure.

Go back and look at the fact that I did not ignore all the characters, expect maybe Shin's mom.... which was wrong I'm sorry?

Quote:
Your point is Ai was forced to accept Nobu's feelings because of Shin badgering her. My point is Ai accepted Nobu's feelings therefore shooting herself in the foot. The thing is both could actually be right. Just I don't see it from your extreme PoV. I see cause and effect. I also believe in the sanctity of relationships be it friendship, family or romance. If you really believe that Ai is such a weak person that she would dally around with another guy to give the bloke she likes "breathing space" or to "appease him", then surely she needs to do a lot more growing up then Noe does.
Ai was pressured into, not forced, there were no guns involved. However, given the situation and the age group we're looking at, pressure is nearly force. And again, I'm not saying Ai was not at fault, its just that its also Shin's. There is no extreme PoV either, extreme would be me blaming Shin for everything or accusing you of an extreme PoV.

So according to you, people cannot make wrong decisions else there hands be cut off? Ai made a wrong decision lets not gloat over it as if the heavens fell on her head and killed her. Mistakes can be amended, and again its not completely her fault. Look at the situation, do you realize just how easy it to pressure a teen into doing something? Especially when pressure comes from someone you love/like? You're spinning everything into 'It's all her fault and everything was done for the wrong reasons so she should burn.' Yes, wrong reasons, and yes partly her fault, but people make mistakes... otherwise they wouldn't be people (teens especially make mistakes).

You again compare apples and oranges between Noe and Ai. One has to grow up from being a child in spirit, the other has to grow up by fixing the mistake she made. Different fruits, poor comparison.

Quote:
Grabbing someone and slogging them doesn't make romance blossom. I recommend to any young viewers to not do that without permission as some people believe it is their right to give away their kiss to another. In worse case scenario its called assault.
Actually it can make romance blossom, its simply a catalyst. Is the chance high? Probably not, but it is possible. Love is a spontaneous emotion at times, and one that is hardly controllable for long times.

Not quite sure why you recommended that, let people live their lives the way they want to and learn from their mistakes. You can advise, but there is no need to make decree as to how 'bad' kissing someone is if one side is caught off guard. Yes, its called assault when you do it to someone random on the street, then its assault. When you do it to your best friend its awkward. Bringing in legality of a kiss made me laugh, to be perfectly honest.
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Old 2008-02-28, 11:17   Link #222
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
I didn't know you could read Shin's mind, please bestow upon me more of this knowledge oh great mind reader. What you think is not necessarily what Shin thinks, especially since we've been shown near nothing of it and we are not omnipotent. So please, don't say what he thinks as if it were the purest of facts.
Shin stated very clearly to Aiko that he sees Aiko as "osananajimi onee-san de, Miyokichi no kanojo de". (childhood friend-cum-big sister, and Miyokichi's girlfriend)

I'm more inclined to believe grey_moon here.
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Old 2008-02-28, 11:39   Link #223
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
You Your point is Ai was forced to accept Nobu's feelings because of Shin badgering her. My point is Ai accepted Nobu's feelings therefore shooting herself in the foot. The thing is both could actually be right. Just I don't see it from your extreme PoV. I see cause and effect. I also believe in the sanctity of relationships be it friendship, family or romance. If you really believe that Ai is such a weak person that she would dally around with another guy to give the bloke she likes "breathing space" or to "appease him", then surely she needs to do a lot more growing up then Noe does.
She was left with no choice. There is not doubt that Aiko would have rejected Nobuse if Shin was not there. Shin argument for her to go out with nobuse was VALID. "he is a nice guy" said Shin.
Aiko repeated to herself "I know it" "I know it". then she looked at Shin and said "Ok". She had two choices, reject "SHIN" or agree to go out with Nobuse.

I do agree that what Aiko did was wrong, but like you say these are teenagers that don't know crap about life. this is their first time with this kind of things. nobuse is going to learn a valid lesson from all this, don't let others do your talking for you. Aiko is going to learn not to be influenced by other so easily and to be more assertive about her feelings.
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Old 2008-02-28, 12:08   Link #224
relentlessflame
 
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To be honest, I'm not even sure what's being fought about anymore. Both Hiromi and Aiko are childhood friends to Shinichirou. They both have a background with him, and, in a sense, he could see either of them as a "sister" for various reasons. But, for whatever reason, he never looked at Aiko in "that way", to her great frustration, and that hasn't shown any signs of changing.

The situation that was thrust on her regarding Miyokichi is sort of no one's fault. It just happened. Shinichirou didn't see Aiko as a love interest and had no idea that she felt that way, so he thrust his best friend on her. Aiko didn't have the courage to confess her true feelings to Shinichirou, so she agreed to go out with his best friend since she figured that would allow her to remain close to him for the time being. She probably figured that it was fine so long as she and Shinichirou could remain friends, since she figured that maybe Shinichirou might eventually come around if they had more time together. That could keep going on until Shinichirou started showing clear romantic interest in other girls and acting upon it. Then Aiko realized that Shinichirou was slipping away from her, so she felt she needed to act. Her hope that Shinichirou would look her way eventually didn't really work out because they ran out of time. Basically, no one's to blame in this situation. Aiko could have saved herself some grief if she had known that going out with his best friend wouldn't have changed anything, but hindsight is 20/20. Likewise, Shinichirou would never have thrust his best friend upon her if he realized that she had feelings for him, but he had no way to know that. Things happened, decisions were made, and now we have the consequences. "That's life."

This is only my observation and not necessarily a pronouncement of the way it must be, but basically, in anime, romance with an osanajimi/onee-san type of character only works out if the protagonist has some really deep-seated feelings of affection for the character that he's been trying to hide or deny (typically for reasons of propriety -- "she's like a sister to me; it's not right for me to have feelings for her"). Then, a "catalyst event" occurs which causes the protagonist to realize that she may seriously feel the same way about him. Once the catalyst event occurs, the protagonist can't get the event out of his mind, and can't stop thinking about the character in that way, which will eventally lead to another catalyst event (or a few of them), eventually resulting in a confession. But in general, if I look back to all the anime I've seen, it's a pretty straight line after the first catalyst event, and they always make sure to highlight the change of feelings at the time. In this case, they seem to consistently point out that no such change is occurring, no matter how much Aiko wants it to. Unfortunately for her, feelings can be like that. That, too, is "life".
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Old 2008-02-28, 12:39   Link #225
psycrop
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hopefully shin becomes another makoto....LOOOOOOL
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Old 2008-02-28, 13:24   Link #226
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Straw man again, your turning my words into an exaggerated piece of art. I've already said Ai is at fault too (so no Virgin Mary), you have yet to show me any evidence that Shin was not equally/partly guilty in what happened in the flashback (therefore in a way 'bullied' her into accepting to use your words), and finally scheming Noe... hardly. Scheming Jun? Sure.
Did you like it. I actually exaggerated and summarised that from 2 posts I believe. The Jun hate and Noe put down is pretty amazing really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Go back and look at the fact that I did not ignore all the characters, expect maybe Shin's mom.... which was wrong I'm sorry?
In your defence of Ai being the best choice for Shin you are actually ignoring one of the most important and that is Shin. I keep going on that a healthy relationship is from both people not just one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
So according to you, people cannot make wrong decisions else there hands be cut off? Ai made a wrong decision lets not gloat over it as if the heavens fell on her head and killed her. Mistakes can be amended, and again its not completely her fault. Look at the situation, do you realize just how easy it to pressure a teen into doing something? Especially when pressure comes from someone you love/like? You're spinning everything into 'It's all her fault and everything was done for the wrong reasons so she should burn.' Yes, wrong reasons, and yes partly her fault, but people make mistakes... otherwise they wouldn't be people (teens especially make mistakes).
Bleh it isn't about who made the most mistakes or who is the better girl. My point is that in the case of Ai and Shin, she made the fatal mistake of accepting Nobu's feelings. Tada nothing more nothing less. Lets do a ret con....

Shin: This is my best friend Nobu who is a great guy please go out with him
Nobu: Grovel grovel
Ai: ...
Shin: He really is a great guy yada yada (lots of pressure)
Nobu: Grovel grovel
Ai: I'm sorry Nobu but I can't accept your feelings, I love Shin
Nobu:
Shin: ...
Nobu: Oh well Shin you are such a cool guy

And who knows what would have happened next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
You again compare apples and oranges between Noe and Ai. One has to grow up from being a child in spirit, the other has to grow up by fixing the mistake she made. Different fruits, poor comparison.
You might be mistaking my posts for these imaginary ones. So far I've been going on about Shin's reaction (or lack of in Ai's case) with each of the girls romantically. I really haven't compared Noe and Ai. I did a brief comparision on Hiromi and Noe based on rf's post but that was more about Shin experiencing a problem filled relationship over a fun (even childish) one.

If you are going on about my snipe, about Ai giving away something special when she actually liked someone else; then let me expand that into a comparison

Right lets look at the idea of Ai and Noe in their actions of romantic thingy mabobs.

Noe has people spreading nasty rumours about her in that sense and she responds to it, by not responding. She doesn't run away, she doesn't angst, she might be putting on a brave face who knows. We do know that when she finally realised she actually was in love she was head over heals. All cute and embarrassed sure you might not like it, but I do and hey Shin does too once he actually realised

With Ai we know she likes Shin and for whatever reason (hey I'll go for the martyr one to keep some people happy) she doesn't confess and she decides that going out with someone else is okay. Finally when she sees that person is actually drifting away from her she grabs him and steals a kiss.

Noe's current romantic status is so much nicer imho, Ai's is just messy. Not wrong just messy.
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Old 2008-02-28, 13:40   Link #227
cloudninja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This isn't about what character you would choose to go out with if you were in Shinichirou's place, or whether Hiromi is the best girl in the story. That's totally irrelevant to this conversation. In this story, Shinichirou's not starting off in "neutral", and his feelings for the characters aren't based simply on how he feels about them in the here and now. The plot's been pretty clear in describing the reasons for Hiromi's change in behaviour, and Shinichirou's desire to restore her to her original happier state. They've also been pretty clear in outlining how both Shinichirou and Hiromi's feelings for each other preceeded her more recent change in behaviour. So, from a plot perspective, Hiromi's recent behaviour is certainly having an influence on Shinichirou's ability to remain close with her, but his judgement of her character is not based solely on this recent behaviour since he knows that she wasn't always like this (and is starting to figure out what the problem is). So whether or not Hiromi's really the "best choice" for him in the here and now, his feelings for her are more deeply rooted than that, which is why they continue to have a grip on him.

This isn't "defending Hiromi" (totally subjective and irrelevant), we're talking about the points the show itself raises on this subject. Those are two very different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I just wanted to say that that's absolutely 100% right! There's how you feel about the characters on the one hand, and there's how the show's protagonist feels about the characters in the other. When you're discussing the show's content, or making predictions on future events, you need to keep those two things seperate. Otherwise, the result is "selective viewing" -- you only see what you want to see, not what's really going on, and your predictions are completely tainted as a result. If you're trying to be objective, you need to detach yourself from your personal feelings. That's really the only issue I was getting at.

I strongly agree with what relentlessflame said in the above two posts and would like to add to it. There are two main ways of looking at the story. You can just look at it from your personal viewpoint without properly taking into account all the characters' motivations and situations, therefore having a view affected by personal bias. Or you can try to impartially see the story that the director and writers are actually telling by trying to understand where each character is coming from. You can also have both views at the same time but most of the posts I have seen reflect strong personal bias. Everyone has their part to play in this story that is fixed. This is'nt is a game you are playing where you can choose the course or where your personal preference makes a difference in the outcome. I think there are reasons why each of the characters act the way they do and to truly enjoy and understand the show it is best to make a serious effort to understand each major character and their part in the story. I try to see things from both a personal preference viewpoint and also from the viewpoint where I can see what the writers intend in terms of the structure of the show.

A common trend I have seen is to discount the validity of Shin and Hiromi's feelings for each other because the basis for it lies in the past, before the the timeline that started in episode 1, so it seems many people have trouble understanding how they can feel so deeply for each other. Let's go over what we know about them. They have always been in the same class together since elementary school. Their friendship started when they were young, probably around the same time as the elementary school years. That friendship became suspended when Hiromi moved into Shin's household about a year ago because Shin's mother gave Hiromi a 'revelation' that caused Hiromi to think that she needed to keep space between herself and Shin. Before that they were not only classmates but were friendly with each other as well. So they had years of friendly interaction that led them to develop feelings for each other. It's not as if they were only acquaintances in the same class and they developed infatuations from afar based on little knowledge or interaction with each other. In fact it's the opposite. They have probably done the things that friends normally do. Talk, laugh, smile, do things together as friends. They know enough about each other from all those years spent in each others company together that they want to be with the other person.

In Shin's own words in episode 1 at 11:50 regarding her change since moving into his household. "I've always been in the same class as her since elementary school. I was really surprised. She was always so cheerful. I loved her smile. I loved her smile..." Besides showing how much he missed having her smile at him, that also shows how Shin truly views Hiromi, the one he has known since childhood. The way Hiromi has been portrayed in the current timeline has acted differently and that's what most viewers are focusing on but that's only if you don't take into account how Shin knows her. He knows that Hiromi's true character is the one she showed him for years before his mother gave that 'revelation' to Hiromi and Shin wants to help her so that they can at least go back to being friendly and closer again before moving on from there. What was shown with the episode 4 bathroom 'toothpaste' scene where they laughed and smiled, and also the episode 5 beach scene is probably much closer to the relationship they had in the past than the other stuff we've seen in the current time and is also something they both want to work towards. Those were examples of Hiromi dropping the 'seal' she has had on her feelings for the past year to reveal her real character and feelings for Shin. This is one of the major themes of the story. Characters and situations evolve over the course of a show so final judgment should'nt be made about characters until the full story is told.

I think Hiromi's friend Tomoyo provides some insight into the level of interaction Shin and Hiromi had before she moved in. In episodes 2 and 3 Tomoyo is insistent that Shin is the one that Hiromi liked and kept pestering her everytime they spotted Shin with Noe. Even when Hiromi told her the lie about liking the #4 from Hotarugawa (Jun) to get her friend to stop bothering her, Tomoyo expressed disbelief which shows that Hiromi had probably never showed any signs before to her that she liked Jun. In episode 8 when Hiromi and Tomoyo walk by and see Shin with Noe at the chicken coop, Tomoyo says the following. "I never expected him to choose Isurugi Noe. I thought that Nakagami-kun had his sights set on you". So it must have been noticeable to Tomoyo from the way they used to act around each other before as friends that Shin and Hiromi liked each other. Hiromi never confirmed any of Tomoyo's claims so she must have picked up the signs on her own to come to the conclusion that they liked each other.

Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-28 at 21:19. Reason: added part about Tomoyo
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Old 2008-02-28, 15:37   Link #228
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Did you like it. I actually exaggerated and summarised that from 2 posts I believe. The Jun hate and Noe put down is pretty amazing really.
Ironically, I actually like Jun's character, so while you may think I hate him that is not the case. Just because I use negative words does not mean I hate a character, I simply frame them with the words most supportive of my point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
In your defence of Ai being the best choice for Shin you are actually ignoring one of the most important and that is Shin. I keep going on that a healthy relationship is from both people not just one.
Yes, clearly I ignored Shin. I mean all the times I've been referring to him has clearly been an elaborate attempt for me to ignore him. I've even agreed with you that Shin DID not have any feelings for Ai, that however is past tense. This brings me to something else...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Shin stated very clearly to Aiko that he sees Aiko as "osananajimi onee-san de, Miyokichi no kanojo de". (childhood friend-cum-big sister, and Miyokichi's girlfriend)

I'm more inclined to believe grey_moon here.
You're looking at it in the wrong order. Chronologically he states that too Ai, again as a reaction, then later we see him thinking back to it (which goes against what he told her 'I'll forget about the kiss' quite blatantly) and blushing (yes he has balls and is a boy, but even so I doubt most people would blush when their 'sister' kissed them and then later think about it and say 'her lips were soft').

He's sending signals that make discerning his thoughts nigh impossible, but everyone seems to be focusing on the jerk reaction to the situation. Like most such reactions, things change when they are reflected upon once the situation is over and time is alloted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Bleh it isn't about who made the most mistakes or who is the better girl. My point is that in the case of Ai and Shin, she made the fatal mistake of accepting Nobu's feelings. Tada nothing more nothing less. Lets do a ret con....
And my point is that mistakes can be amended, but you seem to be totally ignoring that. In the end, though, it is about who made the most mistakes since mistakes tend to alienate the people around you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Shin: This is my best friend Nobu who is a great guy please go out with him
Nobu: Grovel grovel
Ai: ...
Shin: He really is a great guy yada yada (lots of pressure)
Nobu: Grovel grovel
Ai: I'm sorry Nobu but I can't accept your feelings, I love Shin
Nobu:
Shin: ...
Nobu: Oh well Shin you are such a cool guy

And who knows what would have happened next.
Good job, I'm glad you can frame a scenario that fits your reasoning. Guess what? Everyone can. Each character has their own personality and is a type of person, your scenario simply voids all that. Not to mention that it simply ignores the turmoil that is teenage life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
You might be mistaking my posts for these imaginary ones. So far I've been going on about Shin's reaction (or lack of in Ai's case) with each of the girls romantically. I really haven't compared Noe and Ai. I did a brief comparision on Hiromi and Noe based on rf's post but that was more about Shin experiencing a problem filled relationship over a fun (even childish) one.
You haven't compared? I'll even mark the comparative word.
"If you really believe that Ai is such a weak person that she would dally around with another guy to give the bloke she likes "breathing space" or to "appease him", then surely she needs to do a lot more growing up then Noe does."
Thats making a comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
If you are going on about my snipe, about Ai giving away something special when she actually liked someone else; then let me expand that into a comparison

Right lets look at the idea of Ai and Noe in their actions of romantic thingy mabobs.

Noe has people spreading nasty rumours about her in that sense and she responds to it, by not responding. She doesn't run away, she doesn't angst, she might be putting on a brave face who knows. We do know that when she finally realised she actually was in love she was head over heals. All cute and embarrassed sure you might not like it, but I do and hey Shin does too once he actually realised

With Ai we know she likes Shin and for whatever reason (hey I'll go for the martyr one to keep some people happy) she doesn't confess and she decides that going out with someone else is okay. Finally when she sees that person is actually drifting away from her she grabs him and steals a kiss.

Noe's current romantic status is so much nicer imho, Ai's is just messy. Not wrong just messy.
Except that Shin's half preoccupied with someone else. If Hiromi didn't exist I'd agree with you, but she does exist. Which makes Noe's relationship as messy as everyone else's present. And again being cute and childish about something like love, as you like to use such a strong word for a crush, needs to be done on a far more mature level, not cute. Cute gets you to dating, after that you need to show more value.

You summed Ai's pretty well, though we've never been shown that she thinks its ok to be dating Nobuse for her reasons. I think she's more trapped in it because she doesn't want to hurt Nobuse (or was anyway), again going with her character type. But don't get me wrong, she's just a big a mess as everyone else, Noe included.
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Old 2008-02-28, 16:20   Link #229
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
You summed Ai's pretty well, though we've never been shown that she thinks its ok to be dating Nobuse for her reasons. I think she's more trapped in it because she doesn't want to hurt Nobuse (or was anyway), again going with her character type. But don't get me wrong, she's just a big a mess as everyone else, Noe included.
It is obvious that Aiko doesn't want to hurt nobuse, She tried to break with him and he just shut her up with no problem. It is funny that Nobuse showed some testicular fortitude to stop Aiko from breaking with him.

She is trying to avoid him as we saw from the store scene, but her face showed that it was breaking her heart. It doesn't matter that you don't love a person, but after going for some long you develop some feeling for them, it might not be romantic or passionate love, but there has to be some affection.
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Old 2008-02-28, 18:50   Link #230
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Shin stated very clearly to Aiko that he sees Aiko as "osananajimi onee-san de, Miyokichi no kanojo de". (childhood friend-cum-big sister, and Miyokichi's girlfriend)

I'm more inclined to believe grey_moon here.
I remember that scene clearly as well.

Shin sees Aiko as nothing more than a childhood friend.
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Old 2008-02-28, 19:51   Link #231
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -boiledliddo- View Post
I remember that scene clearly as well.

Shin sees Aiko as nothing more than a childhood friend.
It is anime and anything can happen. If I got a dollar for every anime where a guy or girl didn't have feelings for someone else and eventually they end together I could be rich. Peach girl, lovely complex are two that come to mind. I personally don't think that anything will come from Shin and Aiko, but never take for granted what a teenager say.
Spoiler for example of a never say never from Bokura ga ita:
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Old 2008-02-28, 21:40   Link #232
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
You're looking at it in the wrong order. Chronologically he states that too Ai, again as a reaction, then later we see him thinking back to it (which goes against what he told her 'I'll forget about the kiss' quite blatantly) and blushing (yes he has balls and is a boy, but even so I doubt most people would blush when their 'sister' kissed them and then later think about it and say 'her lips were soft').

He's sending signals that make discerning his thoughts nigh impossible, but everyone seems to be focusing on the jerk reaction to the situation. Like most such reactions, things change when they are reflected upon once the situation is over and time is alloted.
If I were still a teenager, and a girl who's not actually my sister but whom I've always seen as a friend just kissed me out of nowhere, and it was my first kiss, I won't be able to help but think about that first kiss, either. And that would be so even if it doesn't change the fact that I still see that girl as just a friend.

You're saying that Shinichiro will eventually be swayed by Ai just on the basis of the first kiss. I'm saying it's a natural teenage male reaction to getting a first kiss. I play Occam's Razor which states that the simpler explanation to the same topic is better. I win.
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Old 2008-02-28, 21:57   Link #233
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
And my point is that mistakes can be amended, but you seem to be totally ignoring that. In the end, though, it is about who made the most mistakes since mistakes tend to alienate the people around you.
Ignoring Shin's good boy status there me thinks. Sure mistakes can be amended, but Aiko made a choice and that choice was hugely non-beneficial to her ultimate goal of wanting to go out with Shin. Can't you even see the current signs? Her current BF is only sticking with her because either he loves her lots and is very understanding, or is a sap with no self respect (sure plenty of others too). One of her best friends freaked on her and now is avoiding her, who happens to be the guy she likes. The guy she likes is still going out with another girl and still liking another girl. So her:

First move to not confess her feelings to Shin: I see no benefit
Second move to accept Nobu's feelings: Negative due to Shin being a good boy, as Nobu is his best friend.
Third move: Finally confess to him when he quite happily tells her that he has met someone else (ie he is trying to move on from Hiromi) and grabbing a snog: She got told exactly where she stands (ie no where) and the guy and her best friend does a runner.

A mistake? Probably in the eye of the beholder, but I can't see much romanic yummy goodness there unless the writers are aiming for another over coming the odds thing again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Yes, clearly I ignored Shin. I mean all the times I've been referring to him has clearly been an elaborate attempt for me to ignore him. I've even agreed with you that Shin DID not have any feelings for Ai, that however is past tense. This brings me to something else...



You're looking at it in the wrong order. Chronologically he states that too Ai, again as a reaction, then later we see him thinking back to it (which goes against what he told her 'I'll forget about the kiss' quite blatantly) and blushing (yes he has balls and is a boy, but even so I doubt most people would blush when their 'sister' kissed them and then later think about it and say 'her lips were soft').

He's sending signals that make discerning his thoughts nigh impossible, but everyone seems to be focusing on the jerk reaction to the situation. Like most such reactions, things change when they are reflected upon once the situation is over and time is alloted.
Right lets get this out of the way first. I need to read Shin's mind to say that he thinks that he considers Ai is like his sister when it came out of his mouth, but you can make a statement like that from:

Shin saying her lips were soft : I read as his first kiss

Shin blushing: You do know that blushing != a nose bleed don't you? People blush when blood rushes to their face, that can happen when people are nervous, angry, excited as well as turned on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Good job, I'm glad you can frame a scenario that fits your reasoning. Guess what? Everyone can. Each character has their own personality and is a type of person, your scenario simply voids all that. Not to mention that it simply ignores the turmoil that is teenage life.
You can make up any scenario you like. Mine is an obvious what could of happened. Yours is what you are claiming did happen. And here I thought someone was going to thwap me for my characterisation of Nobu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
You haven't compared? I'll even mark the comparative word.
"If you really believe that Ai is such a weak person that she would dally around with another guy to give the bloke she likes "breathing space" or to "appease him", then surely she needs to do a lot more growing up then Noe does."
Thats making a comparison.
Not particularly. That was a my personal judgement on her based on your description of her actions. I used Noe coz you judge her to be so childish and I'm saying actually Ai is childish. You can insert any childish person you like instead of Noe. Read the bit before the word Noe and try to realise where I was coming from. I was attacking your favourite character not comparing her.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Except that Shin's half preoccupied with someone else. If Hiromi didn't exist I'd agree with you, but she does exist. Which makes Noe's relationship as messy as everyone else's present. And again being cute and childish about something like love, as you like to use such a strong word for a crush, needs to be done on a far more mature level, not cute. Cute gets you to dating, after that you need to show more value.

You summed Ai's pretty well, though we've never been shown that she thinks its ok to be dating Nobuse for her reasons. I think she's more trapped in it because she doesn't want to hurt Nobuse (or was anyway), again going with her character type. But don't get me wrong, she's just a big a mess as everyone else, Noe included.
You go one about chronological order, but you sure don't use it yourself.

Right now Shin has been shown happy when he went out with Noe. Not just that he is walking around with a roaster hair style and a gormless smile on hs face. Noe is experiencing emotions she never had in a good way and appears to be happy too. Right now Noe's romantic relationship with Shin is not messy its nice and fluffy. Ai doesn't have a romantic relationship with Shin at all, hell she might not even have one with Nobu at the end of it. Hiromi doesn't a romantic relationship with Shin, she actually is going out with Jun and she most defiantly isn't happy. Compare away if you must, but I was just analysing each girls romantic situation in regards to Shin.
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Old 2008-02-29, 00:09   Link #234
Guardian Enzo
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I'm not going to wade into this argument (which seems rather an odd one in the context of this particular ep which is, after all, the topic) rather simply make a couple of observations based on 08.

First, I think the preview is a misdirection. I don't believe Jun would take advantage of Hiromi in her current state (for some reason I can't quantify I dislike and distrust him less after this episode) and more importantly, I don't believe she would sleep with a boy she doesn't especially like. I think, in her mind, that would be proving every wicked thought Shin's mom ever had about her.

Second, I find an interesting trend regarding Shin and Noe. The effect she seems to have on him is this - she makes him feel differently about the world ("I've never looked at the sky that way before") and about himself (all of a sudden the storybooks and folk dancing don't seem so distressingly boring and "good"). However, very rarely does she seem to inspire strong feelings about her. Her strangeness interests him, and her odd faith in him makes him question his low opinion of himself. But he doesn't seem to feel anything towards her, other than perhaps protectiveness and affectionate curiosity. I suppose relationships have been built on far weaker foundations, but I think we're building towards Noe changing the way Shin deals with his feels for Hiromi (with Aiko still on the outside looking in).

Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2008-02-29 at 00:43.
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Old 2008-02-29, 00:32   Link #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
It is anime and anything can happen. If I got a dollar for every anime where a guy or girl didn't have feelings for someone else and eventually they end together I could be rich. Peach girl, lovely complex are two that come to mind. I personally don't think that anything will come from Shin and Aiko, but never take for granted what a teenager say.
As I alluded to earlier, I think the main enemy here is time. With so much else "on the plate", there's not much opportunity to break through. "Anything can happen", only given the proper lead-up, timing, and situations. So that's really to say that, no, not anything can happen in anime because anime is scripted to make sense to those who wrote it.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Second, I find an interesting trend regarding Shin and Noe. The effect she seems to have on him is this - she makes him feel differently about the world ("I've never looked at the sky that way before") and about himself (all of a sudden the storybooks and folk dancing don't seem so distressingly boring and "good"). However, very rarely does she seem to inspire strong feelings about her. Her strangeness interests him, and her odd faith in him makes him question his low opinion of himself. But he doesn't seem to feel anything towards her, other than perhaps protectiveness and affectionate curiosity. I suppose relationships have been built on for weaker foundations, but I think we're building towards Noe changing the way Shin deals with his feels for Hiromi (with Aiko still on the outside looking in).
Very good realization. Remember back to the first episode premise and the two scenes Shinichirou drew: the Hiromi who was always crying, and who he felt wanted him to wipe her tears, and an angel (Noe) who could collect those tears and turn them into a necklace that would decorate the tree. The angel's role in Shinichirou's story was to help him accomplish the primary goal of wiping Hiromi's tears, since he didn't feel he could do it own his own (that's why he needed an angel). And the anime plot that followed... <dot-dot-dot>
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Old 2008-02-29, 02:17   Link #236
The Chaos
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The Ep Really Good ...I Like it
Noe Really Cute When She Smile
Well I Give This Ep 9/10
Can't Wait To See The Next Ep..^^
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Old 2008-02-29, 06:29   Link #237
tejvenim
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I like Hiromi and Aiko, don't like Noe. In this episode, Noe reign supreme while Hiromi is badly portrayed, so I give a rating of 1/10.
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Old 2008-02-29, 08:16   Link #238
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
It is anime and anything can happen. If I got a dollar for every anime where a guy or girl didn't have feelings for someone else and eventually they end together I could be rich. Peach girl, lovely complex are two that come to mind. I personally don't think that anything will come from Shin and Aiko, but never take for granted what a teenager say.
Spoiler for example of a never say never from Bokura ga ita:
I agree, this is an anime and anything can happen.

In regards to who will end up with Shin...I think it's Noe 55%, Hiromi 30%, Aiko 10%, no one 5% - this is pure speculation on my part.
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Old 2008-02-29, 13:14   Link #239
tejvenim
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The sudden sweetness of Noe feels very out of place in relation to her usual eccentric and weird personality.

If Aiko show such sweetness, then it is logical and reasonable as it is consistent with her caring nice girl personality and her long time affection for Shin. However Noe is an eccentric and weird chicken girl for a very long time before she met Shin, one day she became Shin's girlfriend and suddenly display her girly sweetness, it feel so very fake.
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Old 2008-02-29, 15:35   Link #240
ani_d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Second, I find an interesting trend regarding Shin and Noe. The effect she seems to have on him is this - she makes him feel differently about the world ("I've never looked at the sky that way before") and about himself (all of a sudden the storybooks and folk dancing don't seem so distressingly boring and "good"). However, very rarely does she seem to inspire strong feelings about her. Her strangeness interests him, and her odd faith in him makes him question his low opinion of himself. But he doesn't seem to feel anything towards her, other than perhaps protectiveness and affectionate curiosity. I suppose relationships have been built on far weaker foundations, but I think we're building towards Noe changing the way Shin deals with his feels for Hiromi (with Aiko still on the outside looking in).

I kind of sense the same thing. In fact, I have a good impression of how they're going to conclude this show. Simply, Noe completing her mission of reclaiming her true tears due to a heartbreak from Shin choosing Hiromi in the end. ^_^

Noe's role is more like a facilitator that points Shinichi towards his own happiness--which is dealing with his own life and drama queen Hiromi.
Spoiler:


It just sucks because Noe is like a breath of fresh air in this show and it's gonna be lame if the ending is really the same as what I'm expecting. -_- I'm hoping for a cute twist in the end.

Last edited by ani_d; 2008-02-29 at 15:48.
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