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Old 2008-03-02, 03:19   Link #21
Wirbelwind8
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Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
Watch dvd's on a 40+" plasma/lcd screen and tell me if you still think DVD is high quality. Sure if you're watching it on a little tv/CRT it doesn't matter. But that's not what High definition is for.
That's exactly what I was going to say . I have a 57' and my friend has a 37', both HDTV. Watched the same anime on both TV's and saw that it was much smoother on the smaller tv. 480p is nice, but not with 40+" plasma/lcd screens as you mentioned.

Which in a way has me worried. DVD's are hellishly expensive. I can't imagine what the Blu-ray versions are gonna cost
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Old 2008-03-02, 05:36   Link #22
cyth
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Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
Watch dvd's on a 40+" plasma/lcd screen and tell me if you still think DVD is high quality.
Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Where I live, I say "Blu-ray" and people say "Wut?"
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Old 2008-03-02, 07:32   Link #23
Kakashi
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Where I live, I say "Blu-ray" and people say "you must be rich"

If anime does go blu-ray hopefully they can put whole series on one disk.
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Old 2008-03-02, 09:46   Link #24
cyth
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Originally Posted by kakashi-genius View Post
If anime does go blu-ray hopefully they can put whole series on one disk.
Not going to happen.
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Old 2008-03-02, 10:34   Link #25
Ichihara Asako
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I wouldn't want official releases of a whole series on one disc. It'd result in poor video quality, unless you just want it SD. A standard retail DVD is ~8 gig (DL), and will have 3-5 episodes, so you're talking over a gig per episode (of allowance, not necessarily used) in SD so packing a whole 24-26 episode series/season on a single BD (25Gb, are there DL BDs yet?) might not be possible.

Plus it'd result in less profit for companies, unless they just wanted to charge by the ep. But people'd complain about having to spend > $100 on a single disc. =p

Speaking ISO though, I can't wait for Blu-ray burners to drop to reasonable prices, will be able to fit numerous fansubbed series per disc, creating a decent backup method for my HDDs.

I really want to see some modern anime, that is actually being produced in HD quality, on BR in true 1080 though. Can't wait.
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Old 2008-03-02, 10:44   Link #26
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by kakashi-genius View Post
If anime does go blu-ray hopefully they can put whole series on one disk.
They can already fit 7-8 episodes on a dual-layer DVD if they chose to do so and still leave room for extras. The fact that they release 2-4 episode DVDs is a revenue-maximizing strategy, not a technological limitation of current DVD technology.

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Originally Posted by Ichihara Asako View Post
...on a single BD (25Gb, are there DL BDs yet?) might not be possible.
Yes there are, and some manufacturers have developed quad-layer media.

The real limitation for traditional DVDs, leaving aside that they are 480p, is that they must rely on the MPEG2 codec which is extremely inefficient compared to more modern schemes like H.264. BR players must support H.264, which makes storing complete series, at least in 720p, possible on a single disc. For example, the Ureshii Dennou Coil encodes at 720p with H.264 and AAC encodings run some 350 MB per episode. If SD DVD players supported H.264, you could put the entire 26 episodes on a standard, dual-layer DVD and still have room to spare. Going to 1080p makes this a bit more dicey, though remarkably Ureshii's 1080p Ghost Hound releases run only 400 MB despite having 2.25x more pixels to store. Even if there were no efficiencies available during encoding, we might still expect 1080p episodes in H.264 to be smaller than 480p episodes in MPEG2 today.
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Old 2008-03-02, 11:09   Link #27
Ichihara Asako
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
They can already fit 7-8 episodes on a dual-layer DVD if they chose to do so and still leave room for extras. The fact that they release 2-4 episode DVDs is a revenue-maximizing strategy, not a technological limitation of current DVD technology.
Unfortunately, fitting so many eps per disc tends to result in very poor quality. For instance, my Fruits Basket DVD box set, for discs, with 6, 6, 7, 7 eps per disc. I rewatched it just recently on my new monitor, and was horrified at how bad it looks. Many current 264 fansubs are far higher quality, even. :\ Not saying this is always the case, some shows (darker ones) compress better, and there's issues of the original quality and all sorts of other factors, but still.

I'd rather have the highest quality possible, while still fitting within reasonable economic bounds. As long as the prices remain the same, 4-6 episodes a BD is fine by me, if the space isn't needed, then sure I'm happy to see more episodes, but I doubt companies will do that. I doubt even at 1080 raw quality, that an anime episode is going to take much more than 4 gig, so having 6 super high quality episodes, and a few extras etc per single layer BD sounds fine. But given most episodes probably won't even approach that, yeah, seeing more episodes (or more extras! I love behind the scenes stuff, interviews and bonus stuff =p) would be sweet.
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Old 2008-03-02, 11:30   Link #28
cyth
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
The fact that they release 2-4 episode DVDs is a revenue-maximizing strategy, not a technological limitation of current DVD technology.
Always coming up with new corporate conspiracy theories, huh? You already have people complaining how DVD picture quality sucks. At the very least they should offer their customers something worth paying for.
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Old 2008-03-02, 11:54   Link #29
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How many anime TV series are released in Blu-Ray even in Japan? HDTV penetration is so low in Japan that I doubt Blu-Ray will catch on in the anime industry outside of movies.

TV animes use a lot of tricks to hide animation imperfections such as reused frames, low framerates and they are nowhere near as detailed as movie releases.

This mainly due to time and budget limits.

Blu-Ray would only bring those limitations out more.

Look at current series such Gundam 00, Clannad, et cetera. Sure they have HDTV broadcasts, but no Blu-Ray releases. Only DVDs have been released.

I don't think Blu-Ray has the selling point of High-Definition in Japan. I think it has more to do with disc-space.

The HD consoles are doing horribly in Japan. The Xbox 360 is selling poorly. The PS3 is selling poorly but not well. The PS2, DS, PSP, and Nintendo Wii outless the HD consoles regularly.

I don't think the Japanese care about anime on Blu-Ray, because HDTV penetration is going nowhere in Japan.
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Old 2008-03-02, 12:26   Link #30
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
Always coming up with new corporate conspiracy theories, huh? You already have people complaining how DVD picture quality sucks. At the very least they should offer their customers something worth paying for.
So the reason we don't see 5-7 episodes at 480p on dual-layer standard DVDs is what exactly? How would having fewer episodes improve the quality of 480p shows encoded in MPEG2? Are the bit rates on DVDs with only a couple of episodes so much higher than those on DVDs with more episodes that I'd see a difference on an SD TV? Got an example?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
I don't think the Japanese care about anime on Blu-Ray, because HDTV penetration is going nowhere in Japan.
From a 2/16/08 release by DisplaySearch:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplaySearch
LCD TV shipments worldwide overtook CRT TV shipments for the first time, after rising 56% Y/Y to a record of more than 28.5 million units or 47% of the world TV market. The strong LCD TV share gains can be attributed to

* Share gains in all regions—LCD unit share improved in every region worldwide, including Europe, which had the strongest growth of the quarter. LCD penetration was highest in developed regions, reaching 86% in Japan, 84% in Western Europe and 78% in North America. [my emphasis]
Hmm. I'm guessing that few, if any, of those LCD shipments were SD.

(By the way, I don't this announcement is very well-worded. I doubt that LCD TV penetration rates have reached 84% in Japan. I think this figure actually represents the year-on-year growth in shipments of LCD TVs to outlets in Japan.)

I'm always struck by the number of HDTV's I see in the homes of anime characters. I remember that I first started seeing HDTVs in anime homes in Noein. This was rather surprising given that Haruka's mother, an author of childrens books, didn't have a very large income beyond the child support she was receiving from her divorced husband. Since then HDTVs seem rather pervasive; I think Yasuoka Shion's family in Shion no Ou owns one, and that family is also portrayed as having financial problems from time to time.
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Old 2008-03-02, 14:09   Link #31
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
So the reason we don't see 5-7 episodes at 480p on dual-layer standard DVDs is what exactly? How would having fewer episodes improve the quality of 480p shows encoded in MPEG2? Are the bit rates on DVDs with only a couple of episodes so much higher than those on DVDs with more episodes that I'd see a difference on an SD TV? Got an example?
Cleverly worded. Comparisons between low and high DVD bitrate can be found anywhere; I especially like this one that compares R1 to R2 anime releases. However, you specified a condition for the comparison--an SD TV. Unfortunately, I can't give you any examples like that. Even on a typical SD LCD TV, results would be obscured because of poor IVTC and deinterlacing filters, and taking samples with a digital camera is kind of pointless. Also, you're forgetting one crucial element when it comes to watching TV--people usually watch TV from a distance. To conclude, not only are your comparison terms unfair, the comparison itself is near impossible to make.
I already said this earlier when I replied to hobbes_fan: Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, whether we compared low bitrate to high bitrate MPEG-2 encodes, or even DVD to BD. But critics, rabid fans, and people who appreciate quality products (myself being one of them) are easier to anger. There are probably several reasons why companies tend to put 2-5 episodes per DVD instead of pushing those numbers to their limits. Revenue is an important issue. Afterall, anime are niche products that need to employ clever pricing schemes to break even. Maintaining a product's value is another. Anime got its value shattered in the R1 region by high episodes/DVD count, seasonal DVD-box (re)releases, and piracy. You're also forgetting these products are made by artists that would prefer if the quality of their work wasn't limited by technology.

Anime, business, even the world isn't that black and white.
Quote:
I'm always struck by the number of HDTV's I see in the homes of anime characters. I remember that I first started seeing HDTVs in anime homes in Noein. This was rather surprising given that Haruka's mother, an author of childrens books, didn't have a very large income beyond the child support she was receiving from her divorced husband. Since then HDTVs seem rather pervasive; I think Yasuoka Shion's family in Shion no Ou owns one, and that family is also portrayed as having financial problems from time to time.
Thanks for the laugh.
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Old 2008-03-02, 14:30   Link #32
lubczyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
So the reason we don't see 5-7 episodes at 480p on dual-layer standard DVDs is what exactly? How would having fewer episodes improve the quality of 480p shows encoded in MPEG2? Are the bit rates on DVDs with only a couple of episodes so much higher than those on DVDs with more episodes that I'd see a difference on an SD TV? Got an example?



From a 2/16/08 release by DisplaySearch:



Hmm. I'm guessing that few, if any, of those LCD shipments were SD.

(By the way, I don't this announcement is very well-worded. I doubt that LCD TV penetration rates have reached 84% in Japan. I think this figure actually represents the year-on-year growth in shipments of LCD TVs to outlets in Japan.)

I'm always struck by the number of HDTV's I see in the homes of anime characters. I remember that I first started seeing HDTVs in anime homes in Noein. This was rather surprising given that Haruka's mother, an author of childrens books, didn't have a very large income beyond the child support she was receiving from her divorced husband. Since then HDTVs seem rather pervasive; I think Yasuoka Shion's family in Shion no Ou owns one, and that family is also portrayed as having financial problems from time to time.
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So why aren't we seeing more anime series with a Blu-Ray release?

Why are top tier series like Kanon, Gundam 00, Sola and Clannad coming out in DVD only so far?
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Old 2008-03-02, 15:03   Link #33
bayoab
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
How many anime TV series are released in Blu-Ray even in Japan? HDTV penetration is so low in Japan that I doubt Blu-Ray will catch on in the anime industry outside of movies.

Look at current series such Gundam 00, Clannad, et cetera. Sure they have HDTV broadcasts, but no Blu-Ray releases. Only DVDs have been released.
There are 2: Air box set and Utawarerumono box set. AIR is an upscale. Only the backgrounds and OP were actually in HD. Utwarerumono looks sort of like an upscale, but it is supposedly not.

The reason you aren't seeing them is not all the DVDs are out for the series and you are not going to be selling singles with Blu-ray. People are not going to accept buying 2-3 episodes on a disc that can hold at least 5 at high bitrates. (AIR and Utawarerumono both average 6/disc.)

Quote:
The HD consoles are doing horribly in Japan. The Xbox 360 is selling poorly.
The entire xbox line in Japan is viewed as a violent foreign kid who is slowly learning Japanese and loves shooting at things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post

So why aren't we seeing more anime series with a Blu-Ray release?

Why are top tier series like Kanon, Gundam 00, Sola and Clannad coming out in DVD only so far?
sola is not a top tier series. It only averaged 3000/disc on DVD. Utawarerumono averaged 8k. And see above for the rest of the answer.
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Old 2008-03-02, 16:20   Link #34
hobbes_fan
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If you can't - tell good for you. I can. I haven;t spent thousands of dollars on a big screen TV, surround sound TV as well as the cost of discs to watch ugly artifaced crap. Nearly every scientifically quantifiable research I've seen (double blind test) show people can tell the difference on big screens.

Anyone who's plugged in a PS2 on a HDTV bigscreen TV will tell you how ugly stuff looks.

For those saying hdtv support is poor, go to your local electronics store. Have a look at what's for sale. 60% of the overall market is owned by LCD/Plasma. At just the 40-50" sizes Rear projection isn't even getting a look in.

Some more stuff
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...uniform-jacket
In a separate development, the Gunota Headlines website reports that a leaked poster has announced that Gundam 00 will also receive a Blu-ray Disc release starting this summer. Gundam 00 is the first Gundam television series animated and broadcasted in high definition (known as "hi-vision" in Japan).

AFAIK it isn't summer yet and Gundam00 is still airing and up to episode 21.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=188
Clannad
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=689 (MArch 7)

I wouldn't consider Sola a top tier series. I'm not interested but from the 3-4 forums I visit there's little to no interest in it.
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Old 2008-03-02, 20:15   Link #35
Ichihara Asako
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Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
For those saying hdtv support is poor, go to your local electronics store. Have a look at what's for sale. 60% of the overall market is owned by LCD/Plasma. At just the 40-50" sizes Rear projection isn't even getting a look in.
I haven't seen a CRT for sale here in ~two years, in various electronics/department stores. And *most* LCDs are at 720 capable. At a guess from what I've seen (no market figures or anything to quote, just personal observation being interested in the market) I'd say it's about 75% LCD, 20% plasma, 5% projection. And this is good. Within the next few years it'll lead to everyone having HD equipment, so SD can happily go the way of the dodo like it's supposed to.
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Old 2008-03-02, 20:43   Link #36
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
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So why aren't we seeing more anime series with a Blu-Ray release?

Why are top tier series like Kanon, Gundam 00, Sola and Clannad coming out in DVD only so far?
Geez man, it's only been a WEEK since the format war officially ended.
Give them some more time, willya?
They don't spontaneously grow on trees you know.
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Old 2008-03-03, 18:14   Link #37
lubczyk
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Geez man, it's only been a WEEK since the format war officially ended.
Give them some more time, willya?
They don't spontaneously grow on trees you know.
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In Japan, Sony products tend to win by default. Blu-Ray had been winning in japan since it came out. Minidisc is still used in Japan.

I think the barrier to penetration is cost. I know people who own dozens of anime series on DVD and they have no plan on replacing them.

I think that we'll run into problesm that LaserDisc and DVD ran into. There are series on LaserDisc that have never been released on DVD. There is probably going to be a lot of series that were released on DVD that will never be released on Blu-Ray.

I mean I started buying DVDs to replace my VHS collection and I'm not going to be doing the same with Blu-Ray. I don't buy DVDs anymore, I just rent them.

I don't think there's a point to stockpiling discs (whether they be DVD, Blu-Ray, or whatever). It's like videogaems. You buy them used and sell them back on ebay or whatnot.

I want more content available in more places, legally. I want to watch Polish movies and TV in the states. I want to be able to watch Japanese TV in Finland. I want to be able to watch British TV in Japan.

We're stil have media cartels in every region of the world and it just sucks. Why can't I watch the latest anime with English Subtitles in Canada? Why can't I watch The latest American action flick in South Korea?

HD means nothing to me if I can only watch the same damn thiings.

I'm hopeful that Blu-ray anime releases in the future will have tons of subtitles since they're already region-free.
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Old 2008-03-03, 18:31   Link #38
hobbes_fan
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post

I want more content available in more places, legally. I want to watch Polish movies and TV in the states. I want to be able to watch Japanese TV in Finland. I want to be able to watch British TV in Japan.

We're stil have media cartels in every region of the world and it just sucks. Why can't I watch the latest anime with English Subtitles in Canada? Why can't I watch The latest American action flick in South Korea?
Not a bluray issue. Legal issues - censorship, licensing, politics etc etc. Even in the era of VHS this was an issue. Blaming HD or media cartels is off base, as there are other issues at hand that need to be considered.

Now your comments about LD - so what if the old series' don't make it onto BD? It's a business, remastering audio and video is expensive, marketing is expensive production costs need to be accounted for. There has to be enough interest for it to make it onto BD to turn a profit. As you've said you don't want to watch the same old thing and that's the same with a lot of people. So if no-one's going to buy it, no-ones going to watch it, so by investing time and money in a product no-one wants, why are they setting themselves up for failure?

On a completely different note. what will be the standard 720p or 1080p? Particularly for anime. Will they cut production costs by using 720p (reducing discs required for a 50 ep series for example) or will they offset costs by charging more for 1080p.. Will BD discs be clearly labelled if they are not using 1080p?
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Convert AVI/MKV/MP4 to DVD
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26308

Last edited by hobbes_fan; 2008-03-03 at 18:42.
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Old 2008-03-03, 20:17   Link #39
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
On a completely different note. what will be the standard 720p or 1080p? Particularly for anime. Will they cut production costs by using 720p (reducing discs required for a 50 ep series for example) or will they offset costs by charging more for 1080p.. Will BD discs be clearly labelled if they are not using 1080p?
I've wondered from time to time why 720p seems have become the HD "standard" for fansubs. Is it because the original program material is telecast in 720p in Japan? Or is it that 1080p releases would be unplayable by an even larger segment of the anime audience than those unable to watch 720p material now?

I thought 1080p24 was pretty much the standard in which everything is shot these days.

Is there anyone here with a BR computer peripheral who could look at a disc and give us some sense of the filesizes involved? How big is a two-hour movie on a BR disc?

Anecdote: Just today I was waiting in the checkout line of my local supermarket in a lower-middle-class part of the Boston suburbs. There were BluRay displays with recent movies at the checkout lines; at $30 they were $10 more expensive than regular DVDs. I was frankly surprised that anyone thought there were enough people with BR players that promoting BluRay in a checkout line made good marketing sense.
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Old 2008-03-03, 23:33   Link #40
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I've wondered from time to time why 720p seems have become the HD "standard" for fansubs. Is it because the original program material is telecast in 720p in Japan? Or is it that 1080p releases would be unplayable by an even larger segment of the anime audience than those unable to watch 720p material now?
The terrestrial HD channels are 1440x1080, bs-hi/wowow are 1920x1080. AFAIK there isn't a single station doing 720p in Japan. The reason for 720p's popularity is probably due to lack of 1080 raws, and the processing requirements (also, a lot of upscaled content or HD content that might not have benefits over 720p).

Quote:
I thought 1080p24 was pretty much the standard in which everything is shot these days.
Depends by what you mean by "everything". TV shows? Yes. Anime? Probably not. And Film still dominants Hollywood movies (although you get exceptions like Zodiac, Superman Returns etc that dabble into 1080p territory).

Quote:
Is there anyone here with a BR computer peripheral who could look at a disc and give us some sense of the filesizes involved? How big is a two-hour movie on a BR disc?
There's no fixed standard, the studios are free to use whatever bitrates they want (within the limits of the spec). This is an extremely useful thread detailing the various specs of many BDs (some anime BDs included in their somewhere - the imports from Japan are mostly maxed out 35-40Mbit/s AVC encodes with either TrueHD or LPCM).

Quote:
Anecdote: Just today I was waiting in the checkout line of my local supermarket in a lower-middle-class part of the Boston suburbs. There were BluRay displays with recent movies at the checkout lines; at $30 they were $10 more expensive than regular DVDs. I was frankly surprised that anyone thought there were enough people with BR players that promoting BluRay in a checkout line made good marketing sense.
Now that the format war is over, the BDA and co can focus their attention on promoting BD rather than simply trying to survive. They have an uphill battle against DVD of course, but over the next year or so there's going to be a huge marketing and retail push.
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