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Old 2008-04-09, 13:43   Link #2081
Torri_fay_torren@hot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
in the Slashers Arc. Miria is probably stronger than Clare. Clare may have been able to hold her ground for a while if she took her seriously but would have lost once Miria used her phantom, Clare just wasn't very fast at that time.

I think after her four-limb awakening Clare becomes much stronger than Miria. Post time skip, Clare only gets knocked on her ass because she wasn't fighting seriously. Even after she started using her Wind Cutter I still think she wasn't fighting seriously. She was only defending herself.

I have a feeling Clare is hiding her true strength for some reason.
My personal opinion is that Clare and Miria are about even. Though it could be possible that she is much stronger then what is shown. I don't think that she is hiding her stength on perpose though. Clare's power really only comes out when she needs it. When her lifes in danger or her friends life is in danger that when Clares power comes out so strongly. I don't think will get to see just how strong Clare has become untill they actually have a challenging fight . And well, its not like Miria and Clare were trying to really kill each other.
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Old 2008-04-09, 14:07   Link #2082
Blackbird
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well, strictly speaking, isn't every one of the 7 ghosts hiding their powers?
What's to say that the moment they stop supressing their yoki they don't all end up being vastly different in terms of yoma power? I mean, right now, they're all fighting with just sheer brute strength, right?
That's the impression i got, anyways.
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Old 2008-04-09, 14:10   Link #2083
Vinak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Lycan View Post
pssh imagine Irene haveing kids omg she would be so cold to them
Irene: hey you two remember to put a jacket on before you go out to play, its cold outside!

Kids: We dun wanna mommy! we wanna practice controlling our inner temperatures!

*kids start to run towards the door.*

*Irene grabs both of them by the back of the head and throws them onto the bed*

Irene: If you two Value your life so little, I'll kill you both right now! You two are only 5 and 6 you can't possibly play outside without a jacket on yet!

*kids give out a long drawn out sigh*

Kids: yes mommy we'll put our jackets on. just don't kills us please!!
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Old 2008-04-09, 14:18   Link #2084
tenken627
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
If it's allowed, i ask that you ignore any particular aspect of my theories you find flawed, i'm only speculating, and by nature i'm a very holistic kind of person (Earth Sciences can do that to your mind).

@tenken Miria can't forgive the org for what they did to her and other claymores regarding making them monsters/claymores/hybrids, it's something that most claymores take for granted, that they are all orphans who were taken and made claymores against their will. You can see why teresa cut down the first purge squad, when Orsay has his hand on clare's shoulder and tells teresa, that what happens to the girl is none of her business (even then clare was being lined up for claymorehood) Clare turns this around by taking teresa's head and volunteering to the first mib she meets... This quite frankly will seem unhinged to the other claymores, in the org's long history clare is the only volunteer they've had, and it explains why she's an offensive claymore, she's out for revenge.
I'm not saying that your theory of Clare rejoining the Organization or the theories supporting it are necessarily wrong. That's your opinion. I'm just trying to help you maybe fine tune it.

Clare volunteered to be a Claymore. The other Ghosts were forced to be Claymores. That doesn't mean that the Ghosts will turn their backs on Clare after having that knowledge.

Even though Claymores are forced to become one, they do not seem to hold any grudges against the Organization. It was just their way of life to them. It was only after finding out that they were betrayed that the Ghosts wanted revenge on the Organization.

Clare joins the Organization willingly to take revenge on Priscilla. A long time after, Miria wants revenge on the Organization. The Organization betrays and tries to kill both Clare and Miria twice. Clare and Miria both leave the Organization. Now, they're pretty much in the same boat.

It's not like Clare joined the Organization because she really wanted to. She didn't want to join it because it would bring her happiness and joy. It was the only option to take if she wanted revenge on Priscilla.
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Old 2008-04-09, 14:39   Link #2085
Awakened
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Originally Posted by gnc742 View Post
about your theory, i think theres something missing. Because when priscilla awakened, she wasn't in need for anything. She didn't say she likes to have more power, or speed.
Priscilla awakened because she wanted more power, Teresa was stronger than her, so she wanted more power to defeat Teresa.

Quote:
For Clare's case. I think what we see is her true awakened form. It doesn't matter if she craves for strength.
We don't know yet if that’s her true form. The mind has power over the yoki.

According to Irene's description of the quick-sword, one arm is awaken, while the Claymore use there willpower to control the awaken arm. At first when Clare used the quick-sword she did not have much control over it, but after meeting Jean she had almost total control over her awakened arm. This shows that you can control your yoki.

If you have a strong mind you control the yoki, if your mind is weak the yoki control you.

During the Rigaldo fight Clare made a conscious decision, on wanting to go faster, it was not subconscious, right after she got her fast legs she realized that she did not have control over her legs. Then she awakened her arms to get better control. She did not just get angry an all a sodden she had fast legs and powerful arm. She first made a conscious decision on what she wanted, and she got it.

Her half awakening did not seem random like all the other Abs, so I will have to disagree that is was all by chance she got her fast legs and powerful arms.

Quote:
That's it. And about Isley manipulating his Limb, its his special ability like Luciela, she had that ability to chew things. Its not like they crave for it right?
You might be right about Isley, Luciela on the other hand it’s just her ability, we don't see her changing shape like Isley.

I don't see Clare in the same category as Isley, he has awakened so technically his yoki is in control of him, Clare has not yet awakened so she is in control of her yoki (Claymores awaken when they can no longer control themselves).

There is no evidence to support this, but it seems that the shape that a Claymore gets has to do with their pesonality. If this is true, then the Claymore has some control over they awakened form.

You might be right, but for right now all the evidence that I see points to Clare having control over her yoki.
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Old 2008-04-09, 14:54   Link #2086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awakened
Priscilla awakened because she wanted more power, Teresa was stronger than her, so she wanted more power to defeat Teresa.
Yeah, that's what i was trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator
clare is the only volunteer they've had, and it explains why she's an offensive claymore, she's out for revenge.
It may also have to do with the fact that I don't think she ever really cared about what happened to her body. Isn't that why in the beginning she was so reckless?
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Old 2008-04-09, 15:24   Link #2087
chibamonster
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@Vinak: That Irene as a parent thing is AWESOME. I laughed a lot. Although Irene would probably laugh after threatening to kill the kiddies.

@Tenken: I still think Clare has less reason for revenge against the organization than others because of the whole volunteer thing. It was not like she did not know the dark side of the Organization. She saw the worst parts of the organization and she STILL decided to join. She knew the dangers of being on the organizations hit list because she saw it happen to Teresa. Despite knowing all that the organization gave her the power to fight that she wanted so badly so she could exact her revenge. She really does not seem to care for her own life much.

Clare could have just as much reason to kill humans for throwing her out of her home town where she got captured and used as a youma toy A SECOND TIME. Clare owes her life to claymores twice over and she wants revenge against priscilla. The organization may be bad but she knew what she was getting into me thinks. As long as Priscilla is still alive her revenge against the organization will always take back seat.
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Old 2008-04-09, 15:27   Link #2088
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an awakened form seems to adapt to whatever fighting style the warrior decides to use and the awakened form takes it to an extreme.

however the only examples i have apply to Clare and Ophelia. Ophelia has a snake-like sword and her body is different. she doesn't die when her neck is broken. she awakens into a snake-like creature with sharp things and tentacles.

Clare adopted the quicksword technique and her awakened form took that to an extreme by giving her extreme speed and multiple blades.

though Clare is special. she seems to take other peoples techniques and use them to some degree. Quicksword Windcutter, youki perception, manipulation, and suppression. I wouldn't be surprised if she pulls off a phantom in the near future.

Clare's nickname is gonna be: copy cat Clare
Warriors will whisper behind Clare's back: be careful what techniques you use with that Clare around....she'll copy them and use them against you!

Quote:
@Vinak: That Irene as a parent thing is AWESOME. I laughed a lot. Although Irene would probably laugh after threatening to kill the kiddies.

@Tenken: I still think Clare has less reason for revenge against the organization than others because of the whole volunteer thing. It was not like she did not know the dark side of the Organization. She saw the worst parts of the organization and she STILL decided to join. She knew the dangers of being on the organizations hit list because she saw it happen to Teresa. Despite knowing all that the organization gave her the power to fight that she wanted so badly so she could exact her revenge. She really does not seem to care for her own life much.

Clare could have just as much reason to kill humans for throwing her out of her home town where she got captured and used as a youma toy A SECOND TIME. Clare owes her life to claymores twice over and she wants revenge against priscilla. The organization may be bad but she knew what she was getting into me thinks. As long as Priscilla is still alive her revenge against the organization will always take back seat.
Glad you enjoyed it Chiba. and i also agree with you about Clare having less of a reason to hate the organization.

the organization wasn't fully responsible for Teresa's Death sure they sent the death squad against her. but in the end an awakened being killed her. that same Death Squad sent to kill Teresa died trying to kill that awakened Being. she saw all of this and decided on her own to Join the organization.

also. WE may know that the organization tried to kill Clare twice. but Clare may not know this. everything Miria said after the first awakened being hunt was all speculation and they couldn't confirm anything.

they were sent on a mission in pieta to take on the awakened beings. they also sent 24 warriors. from my point of view, that would be a good effort on the organizations part to be an effective counter measure to a large number of awakened beings. they even sent multiple single digits. they couldn't really send anymore because that would leave the east wide open to other awakened beings.

the 24 warriors were just bitter because they knew the situation was pretty much hopeless.

i still hold the belief Rubel has some cards up his sleeve to get Clare back into the loop with the organization in some form or another.

She is still an experiment to them and they seemed very interested in her after the Ophelia incident.

He could easily get her back into the Organization through bribes and blackmail. Info on Raki and Priscilla for instance. or maybe her past is a big deal to her and he could threaten to tell her companions all about her. heck maybe Miria wouldn't be too pleased to find out Ophelia was killed by Clare. maybe she wanted revenge against her.
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Last edited by Vinak; 2008-04-09 at 15:49.
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:01   Link #2089
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It may just be me, but I think Miria woulld be really relieved if she knew that Ophelia was dead. Especially considering Claire killed her after Ophelia had awakened.
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:04   Link #2090
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@chiba + vinak... awesome you steal my words from my mouth...

@tenken. And i thank you for your help in fine tuning my arguments, i often have a whole shed of stuff that i don't say cos well i'm like that... but i'll endeavour to point out, the reasoning to my dialectic...

I think if you look into the miria statement back in the slashers arc, she says i can't forgive them for what they did to my body... or something like that. It's true that she was equally unimpressed with being treated as expendable, but you should bare in mind that all the claymores are treated that way to differing degrees, it's just that miria is actively paranoid enough to speculate on it. I mean if you look at the slashers arc again, clare with her defensive technique is on par with a single digit, and had been cutting down 4-5 yoma at a time. Rubul *could* lie about clare's power, but he couldn't hide the revenue she's bringing in, and clare creates the problem by being impatient and not waiting for other claymores, which would have allowed her to hide amongst a crowd of colleagues, as it were. Since she wasn't playing ball, he's really got no choice but to put her on an AB hunt she wants to calm her down, and stop her obviously rampaging over numerous but weaker yoma. Miria thought it was a suicide mission but with the equivalent of 2 single digits and a pretty powerful #15 and #22 it ain't really that suicidal, the strength of the AB was enough to be a proper challenge appropriate to the groups suspected level/potential. Galatea was also there to observe the aftermath of that hunt, and why bother doing that if the org didn't think they would survive at all?. Also it wasn't just clare's first hunt, but helens as well, and neither deneve nor miria looked like they had encountered a male AB... this says to me that the purpose was exactly as rubul stated 'a chance to learn their limits'. Afterwards the org could see that they all calm down, subtle message received, except for miria who we know carried on investigating the org, and received tough missions as punishment, just as galatea did for lying about clare/jean. When the war in the north comes around Helen and Deneve look pretty much unchanged, and so we perceive they were ignored, as miria had stated they would be... 'they are in no hurry to get rid of us'. The only thing that don't fit is what happened to clare next... but i digress i'm wandering let me get back...

So Miria is paranoid (rightly so), and we know Galatea is as well (with regards to the lune and rapheala statement, rightly so again). Now imagine that the two most powerful people in the group of renegade claymores #3 and #6 respectively (ie. leaders based on yoki power) find out that, the would be weakest member is in fact a trained assassin in their midst... They all know by now that clare aint no #47, even yuma #40 says thanks to her for surviving the war in the north and she supposed to be of a higher rank. Claymores aren't supposed to go to rabona, and so it's gonna stick out while they are there that clare was there previously on a covert operation, something the regular soldiers aren't trained to do... furthermore, all these suspicions revolve around the same person who continually tries to wander off unacompanied, and was the one to instigate the return to the south... It ain't gonna take a leap of mistrust to see that the extra info that clare has been holding out, marks her as a v.real threat to their own lives.

Take for example that she killed the awakened ophelia #4... that's an example of real strength, or alternatively an example of an assassin in the org clearing out yet another unwanted claymore, after all whos'e gonna know she awakened apart from the mib's...
Or that she's a volunteer, that means the others are making the best of the situation they find themselves in, they couldn't run away after all, yet clare is 'willing' to do what she does, she went to the org, not the other way around.
Or howabout that clare went to the north to look for raki on rubuls offer, and if she'll do that once, she'll do it again, even if they throw her on more suicide missions, rapheala came back from exile and worked for rubul in exchange for info on luciela, i don't see clare as being much different, she won't kill her friends, but she won't mind slaughtering numerous AB's and other problems for the org either. (we even see rubul's statement to galatea on the issue that their deaths aren't for certain, and he obviously thinks miria had a plan, maybe he counted missing yoma energy tablets)

The point is... what happens when rubul turns up and makes an offer aimed at the most dodgy person in your group who keeps secrets such as that they aren't even a full claymore, they are gonna be very unhappy, especially since there is a real chance clare will take it and walk away from them (a betrayal of sorts, for whatever reason).

Clare knew quite abit about the org from bitter experience, even before she joined. In this respect she is unique, and the likely reason why she wasn't willing to play with the other claymores, who may one day be sent after her. It's likely she figured out that the org would draft her as soon as they or slavers found her as well, orsay was sure ready to take her away once teresa had been dealt with, and so it's not suprising their was an mib waiting for her in a nearby town, so she took teresa with her to her inevitable fate, and took it head on for the sake of her overriding goal.
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:09   Link #2091
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First i was convinced that Claire's half awekened form was due to her "wishes"(and well,it's obviously a possibility.....),but now i begin to have a different opinion:generally the simplest reason is the right one, so it could be that she obtained fast legs and powerfull arms not because she wanted them,but simply because her full awekened state is REALLY REALLY strong,so it has A LOT of power and speed......naturally.
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:20   Link #2092
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I'm going to ignore the Gatsby Syndrome and post my thoughts: Rubel is in love with Clare despite his ice cold demeanor towards her. Hints of this are given in the manga such as Rubel peeking at Clare while she's taking a bath, Rubel asking her to strip to look at her wounds, Rubel asking Clare to come to him every night, etc.

Regarding Clare's power, Rubel understands her and knows a lot about her full potential so he has no worries sending her on dangerous missions knowing she would not die. When Raki appeared, he was extremely jealous so he sent her on a mission with Ophelia knowing that she's once crazy bitch that who kills anything that moves. After Clare's first encounter with Riful, Rubel managed to Clare down because he was worried ever since she was missing since her last mission. He sent her to the north knowing that she will survive because Raphaela will protect her if it gets too hairy. After the Pieta mission, he was knew from Raphaela's reports that she survived.

Afterwords, Rubel implicitly warned Galatea of danger and dispatched her on a quest to search for Clare and the remnants of the Claymores who died in the northern war. He also told her the perfect hiding place and taught her a method to power herself up (blinding her own eyes) to protect herself from assassins. Behind the scenes, he's secretly conspiring against the Org and he's still very much in love with Clare. He cries himself to sleep every night while holding the shredded clothes from one of Clare's past missions.

In a way, Rubel's like Orsay, but unlike Orsay, Rubel has no hatred against his love Clare when she repeatedly rebuffed his love and affection. It only enhanced it. Orsay ordered the killing of Teresea because she didn't return his love. The punishment for the violation of the Org's rule was just an excuse to vent his extreme hatred.
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Old 2008-04-09, 17:27   Link #2093
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Old 2008-04-09, 17:33   Link #2094
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Hehe, readmeats idea is just as likely as some of the other theories I've read. Sure it does not fit into the claymore world as it has been presented so far, but there could always be twists. If nothing else I want Rubel to be last Man (in Black) Standing by the end. I would love to see him pick up a sword and show how he uses it.
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Old 2008-04-09, 19:00   Link #2095
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Sleepy Speculator, I really don't think that the org always thought that Clare had that much power, I think they just saw her potential. And since she's so good at sensing yoki, why wouldn't they train her in covert ops? Plus, in the 5th chapter, she even says covert ops is part of 'our' job.
About the speculation about Clare from the other 7 ghosts... I seriously do not believe that after having spent 7 years together there can be so much mistrust between them, but who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator
Take for example that she killed the awakened ophelia #4... that's an example of real strength, or alternatively an example of an assassin in the org clearing out yet another unwanted claymore, after all whos'e gonna know she awakened apart from the mib's...
The major reason she didn't die fighting Ophelia is because 1. of Ophelia's shock of being an AB and 2. the fact that Ophelia was helping her.


And redmeat's theory was hilarious. Sorry If you didn't intend it that way.
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Old 2008-04-09, 19:15   Link #2096
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
Hehe, readmeats idea is just as likely as some of the other theories I've read. Sure it does not fit into the claymore world as it has been presented so far, but there could always be twists. If nothing else I want Rubel to be last Man (in Black) Standing by the end. I would love to see him pick up a sword and show how he uses it.
in the Extra Scene chapter, he handled the sword with one hand like it was nothing...Galk and Cid had quite the trouble just holding it up. I expect Rubel is quite strong with the sword. Maybe they aren't at claymore level, but they are way stronger than humans
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:15   Link #2097
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Does Galk try to wield a Claymore?

I remember him throwing a Claymore encased inside a statue across a room once.
but not wielding one.

Don't know which Extra Scene you are referring to that concerns Rubel, sorry.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:28   Link #2098
Bashfulz
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bleh. im confused now. did clare tell the others that she's not a 1/2 yoma 1/2 human claymore in the manga..? stupid anime messed me up.

=.=
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:30   Link #2099
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Don't know which Extra Scene you are referring to that concerns Rubel, sorry.
I'm sure he's referring to page 9 of the fourth extra scene.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:34   Link #2100
Blackbird
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*Bashfulz*
As far as I know, Clare didn't tell anyone she was 1/2 yoma, or that she wasn't. I don't think she even talks about it other than in narration. Lots of other people talk about it though.
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