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Old 2008-04-22, 05:09   Link #2301
Sleepy Speculator
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I was trying to find a clear shot of Clarice's eyes, i'm probably blind cos i can't tell one way or the other, (what with what looks light reflecting off in every one) i found one with Miata, she'd clearly blown her suppression. Either she forced that, or the time limit on the pills had worn out... But it does lead to other questions...

1) How did Miata force it?
2) If their's no benefit from being supressed in fighting Galatea, did Clarice blow her supression as well? (she gave the order and went at Galatea as well)
3) If the pills effects were gone, how did Clarice sneak attack Agatha?

@Cyclone, i got a rough idea what was said by Agatha but could you provide a literal translation please... i don't want to make outrageaous statements first.

It looked like Galatea was making a guess at who had attacked Agatha, she looked genuinely puzzled... whatever it was Clarice did, Galatea didn't track her the same way Agatha didn't.

As to the ghosts detecting each other, i don't think they can, Yuma and Tabitha couldn't sense, them until they were standing there, it's likely Cynthia just saw them before the other two. I have no idea how the sense thing works, but i'll take another guess, that with regards to inanimate objects, it works like a lateral line on sharks, if i could tell better, i'd say that's how Clare read the dungeon Raki had been in, from just kicking down a door.
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Last edited by Sleepy Speculator; 2008-04-22 at 06:13. Reason: bad grammar
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Old 2008-04-22, 08:30   Link #2302
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
Oh Cyclone you get so cynical when people start talking about Clare's power ups . While I think the Franken-Clare theory some have put forward is a little bit much it does not hurt people to speculate to their hearts content .
Not cynical really- just having fun with it. I'm not even shooting it down, to tell the truth. I just think that Clare needs to lose one of her own limbs/parts before anyone offers any more replacement parts (I don't think Clare would even ask, and have to be persuaded even to accept again).

Honestly though - I just like Galatea better than Clare. And Galatea has lost enough body parts for one day. So let's not talk of any awakening or dying relating to Galatea - it makes me nervous.
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Old 2008-04-22, 09:31   Link #2303
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
I was trying to find a clear shot of Clarice's eyes, i'm probably blind cos i can't tell one way or the other, (what with what looks light reflecting off in every one) i found one with Miata, she'd clearly blown her suppression. Either she forced that, or the time limit on the pills had worn out... But it does lead to other questions...

1) How did Miata force it?
2) If their's no benefit from being supressed in fighting Galatea, did Clarice blow her supression as well? (she gave the order and went at Galatea as well)
3) If the pills effects were gone, how did Clarice sneak attack Agatha?

@Cyclone, i got a rough idea what was said by Agatha but could you provide a literal translation please... i don't want to make outrageaous statements first.

It looked like Galatea was making a guess at who had attacked Agatha, she looked genuinely puzzled... whatever it was Clarice did, Galatea didn't track her the same way Agatha didn't.

As to the ghosts detecting each other, i don't think they can, Yuma and Tabitha couldn't sense, them until they were standing there, it's likely Cynthia just saw them before the other two. I have no idea how the sense thing works, but i'll take another guess, that with regards to inanimate objects, it works like a lateral line on sharks, if i could tell better, i'd say that's how Clare read the dungeon Raki had been in, from just kicking down a door.
Generally, 10sigh's translations are pretty literal - when in doubt, consult his translation. It's why I like his translations the best despite other groups doing a much better job cleaning and typesetting.

"donsoku(slow fotted) dakedo youki ga kiete iru kara miushinau(to lose sight of) to mendou(difficulty/trouble) na no yo ne..."

"She's slow footed but since her youki is supressed(literally: is vanished), it'd be troublesome to lose sight of her"
So basically exactly what 10 wrote:
"She's slow footed but because her aura is supressed, it would be a pain to lose sight of her"

I'll look at the Riful fight later and see what caused my impression that the ghosts could sense each other.
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Old 2008-04-22, 11:13   Link #2304
Sleepy Speculator
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Cheers cyclone, well until i get confirmation i'm gonna have to assume that Clarice didn't blow her supression unlike Miata. I posted a theory somewhere else, that she can't use yoki anyway, she's had quite a bit of airtime and displayed no release whatsoever. But it does raise a question, how did she raise her base speed dramatically without a yoki release, it still looks like Galatea didn't sense it/or was confused by it, and somehow Clare's debut attack managed to disrupt Agatha's blow on Clarice/Miata, completely (yoki manipulation/Galatea?). grrrhhh! come on Rubul turn up and spill the beans.
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Old 2008-04-22, 12:12   Link #2305
gnc742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Generally, 10sigh's translations are pretty literal - when in doubt, consult his translation. It's why I like his translations the best despite other groups doing a much better job cleaning and typesetting.

"donsoku(slow fotted) dakedo youki ga kiete iru kara miushinau(to lose sight of) to mendou(difficulty/trouble) na no yo ne..."

"She's slow footed but since her youki is supressed(literally: is vanished), it'd be troublesome to lose sight of her"
So basically exactly what 10 wrote:
"She's slow footed but because her aura is supressed, it would be a pain to lose sight of her"

I'll look at the Riful fight later and see what caused my impression that the ghosts could sense each other.
Maybe what Agatha means in the sentence "Although her speed is slow, but once her yoki fades, It'll be troublesome if i lose sight of her" is even though Clarice is slow, her yoki is so minuscule that it can disappear or can't be detected if she gets too far unlike the other claymores.
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Old 2008-04-22, 21:22   Link #2306
Cyclone
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Originally Posted by gnc742 View Post
Maybe what Agatha means in the sentence "Although her speed is slow, but once her yoki fades, It'll be troublesome if i lose sight of her" is even though Clarice is slow, her yoki is so minuscule that it can disappear or can't be detected if she gets too far unlike the other claymores.
No.
Although, Japanese is an odd language it has it's rules.

Quote:
"donsoku(slow fotted) dakedo youki ga kiete iru kara miushinau(to lose sight of) to mendou(difficulty/trouble) na no yo ne..."
The particle that denotes the part of speech follows the word. Sentences also end in verbs - which requires so re-arranging to make sentences sound English. Literally it's:

slow-footed <--though/however (dakedo), youki disappeared <- because(kara), lose sight of <- if (to) troublesome <- is/will (na no - informal way of ending a sentence). [yo='!' ne='eh?']

the 'youki disappeared' is the youki ga kiete iru.
ga is the particle denoting the subject (<- youki in this case).
kiete iru is a form of the verb kieru meaning "to go out; to vanish" (source:kantango). The '-te iru' is the japanese of using present/continuous tense (it is vanished [and will continue to be vanished]).

In short, the translations are right. Sometimes Japanese can be ambigous, but this is not one of those times.
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Old 2008-04-22, 21:42   Link #2307
derelict88
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
...Japanese is an odd language it has it's rules.
Rofl. Man, this cuts the cake.

You do realize that you are talking about a language that belongs to a nation that pursue perfection. Just to elaborate on my point... one cannot gain perfection without understanding.
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Old 2008-04-22, 22:34   Link #2308
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Rofl. Man, this cuts the cake.

You do realize that you are talking about a language that belongs to a nation that pursue perfection. Just to elaborate on my point... one cannot gain perfection without understanding.
Man, I gotta work on my proof reading and comma placement. It should have said:
"Although Japanese is an odd language, it has it's rules"
Ah well.
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Old 2008-04-22, 22:34   Link #2309
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I'd have to say the Japanese Language is far from perfect. (in my opinion)

Though I still think it's a rather fascinating Language.

*pokes NoSanninWa*
/whine When is the chapter 79 thread reopening!?!
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Old 2008-04-22, 23:48   Link #2310
tenken627
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Yeah, I don't really see Clare being the leader, or even wishing to usurp Miria's leadership.

Even after 7 years with the other Ghosts, she still seems to have a lone wolf attitude (which may or may not attribute to her reckless behavior).

She doesn't tell Miria that she left to search a deserted northern town. Deneve made Yuma follow Clare, but I believe that Clare wished that Deneve never knew either. Clare also does her own thing and stays behind with Riful while everyone else tries to run.

The other Ghosts seem to follow Miria out of want or necessity. Clare seems to follow Miria's lead more out of companionship. They're kinda just going in the same direction. Miria knows that there is more to Clare's motives than just finding Raki and getting revenge on the Organization.

While Clare shares a common friendship with Miria, Helen, and Deneve, she still keeps some distance between herself and everyone else.
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Old 2008-04-23, 00:06   Link #2311
Awakened
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Yeah, I don't really see Clare being the leader, or even wishing to usurp Miria's leadership.

Even after 7 years with the other Ghosts, she still seems to have a lone wolf attitude (which may or may not attribute to her reckless behavior).

She doesn't tell Miria that she left to search a deserted northern town. Deneve made Yuma follow Clare, but I believe that Clare wished that Deneve never knew either. Clare also does her own thing and stays behind with Riful while everyone else tries to run.

The other Ghosts seem to follow Miria out of want or necessity. Clare seems to follow Miria's lead more out of companionship. They're kinda just going in the same direction. Miria knows that there is more to Clare's motives than just finding Raki and getting revenge on the Organization.

While Clare shares a common friendship with Miria, Helen, and Deneve, she still keeps some distance between herself and everyone else.
Death follow Clare, she has to keep her distance. Its to painful when she have to watch your comrade die.
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Old 2008-04-23, 00:22   Link #2312
tenken627
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Hmmm, maybe youki pills only suppress the body's natural youki-signature, but does not suppress the ability to use youki energy.

For example, if you could somehow suppress your natural body heat to very low temperatures, an enemy with thermal imaging goggles would not be able to see you. With thermal imaging goggles, the enemy would only see objects that give off a decent amount of heat.

The enemy would be able see you if you fired a gun because of the heat that a gun makes when used. That would be like if you actually used youki energy like Quicksword. You won't see the person, but you know that the person is there because of the gun.

Both humans and guns give off heat. Humans give off heat naturally all the time. Guns only give off heat when used, and not before.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-04-23 at 00:33.
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Old 2008-04-23, 12:29   Link #2313
Sleepy Speculator
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Is it me or is that a logical syllogism?, anyhow, Irene was radiating yoma energy specifically because she had used quicksword, and unless she practiced supression she'd be radiating anyway, so both human and gun would be one and the same.
I was wondering why the pills as a form of medicine aren't commonly allocated to claymores nearing awakening, and had the idea, that the pills would rather extend the problem. The use of pills would dramatically assist in partial awakenings, but would likely create stronger AB's as the pilled claymores eventually succumb to the yoma energy they couldn't control, when their medicine ran out somewhere down the line. Especially if the pills can be overruled by a strong yoki user, then the partially awakening claymores would grow in strength until the yoma energy overcame their suppression. Riful let Clare and Jean go, so they could get stronger after all... any ideas guys/?
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Old 2008-04-23, 12:55   Link #2314
Anh_Minh
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They just don't work to suppress awakening. They don't keep Miata from releasing, after all.
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Old 2008-04-23, 14:47   Link #2315
chibamonster
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Youki suppressants do something different than just cloaking a claymores youki signature. For instance; the ghosts eyes are still silver, they can still sense youki, and Galatea did not sense them coming. Pills change the users eye color, supress youki somewhat but Galatea can still sense them, and the users cannot sense youki. Neither really seems to stop their base strength and it seems that pills do not force claymores power levels down with youki much; EVERY claymore in Pieta was on half a pill. If the pill messed with youki releases then those claymores, the ones who were doing better than Rigald thought they would, were fighting at diminished power.

@ Sleepy speculator: Riful had never seen a partial awakening before Clare. She thought awakening was absolute and bringing people back was fascinating to her like she mentioned several times. She knew Clare got much much stronger over her limit but as for figuring out that they would grow I think it was just nice parting words.

No one so far, including the fab 4, knows what the partial awakening really is or what its consequences are. It seems that it would be impossible to tell what would happen with the ghosts from Riful's point of view. For instance, she did not think that Clare was strong enough to escape from her 7 years later indicating that she really did not think she would have gotten that strong. Although it really might just be Yagi speaking through Riful about their future strength to hint at some story points more than Riful figuring it out herself. Foreshadowing and stuff.

Really from what I have seen it seems that claymores are really stuck for the most part where they are with power levels. They can learn more techniques to use their youki more efficiently, but not every claymore has the potential to be powerful. Partial awakening might be a different and break the rules, but no one really knows much about it. Clare is the one who benefits the most but she is also a super special and we cannot compare her situation as it is so different. Keeping up with high ranking single digits seems reasonable as the fab four are already partially awakened and can use techniques that are on the edge of the limit without sweating. I just don't think Riful was the authority on partial awakening to tell them that they would be stronger awakened beings because of their partial awakening, just a very observant person.
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Old 2008-04-23, 15:10   Link #2316
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
Youki suppressants do something different than just cloaking a claymores youki signature. For instance; the ghosts eyes are still silver, they can still sense youki, and Galatea did not sense them coming. Pills change the users eye color, supress youki somewhat but Galatea can still sense them, and the users cannot sense youki. Neither really seems to stop their base strength and it seems that pills do not force claymores power levels down with youki much; EVERY claymore in Pieta was on half a pill. If the pill messed with youki releases then those claymores, the ones who were doing better than Rigald thought they would, were fighting at diminished power.
Yep, youki pills and individually suppressing youki are different.

They both suppress youki signature, but they seem to do it in different ways, and have different effects.


There are two basic ways to make a youki sensor not be able to detect youki in someone.

1) Actually physically diminish the youki inside of you.

2) Mask or hide the youki inside of you, like stealth technology.


It may be that the youki pills physically diminishes the youki signature in a Claymore to a certain degree. Enough so that the eyes are no longer silver, and it dulls the sensory abilities of the Claymore taking the pills.

I am not sure if this hinders actual youki release in any form, since they can still release their powers. Natural youki signature and active youki release are different, but still related somehow. Maybe the pills makes active youki release a little harder, but still possible.

It's hard to use the Pieta example because all the Claymores were on only half a pill, which Miria reasoned to be such an insignificant amount that it will only kick in when their bodies lose consciousness.


On the other hand, suppressing the youki individually like what Irene, Rafaela, Galatea, and the Ghosts have done is more like masking the youki signature. They are stealthers. They still have easy access to youki release, they still are able to youki-sense with ease, and their eyes are still silver.

Galatea was able to suppress her youki signature for years, but had to blind herself because her eyes were still silver. Her youki was always there, it was just hidden.
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Old 2008-04-23, 15:10   Link #2317
Anh_Minh
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Well, the Ghosts are probably the only ones who had much training after they started working. That alone explains how even Yuma is strong.
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Old 2008-04-23, 17:15   Link #2318
Sleepy Speculator
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YUMA PUNCH!?

Just thought i'd try getting some idea how the pills could work..., what's half a day, 8 hours (time awake)? 12 hours(literally)? Would taking more than one pill double the effect or extend the duration, do they develop immunity?... If anyone would know why the medicine was developed, it would likely be someone from around the first generation (when all the male claymores started awakening) and apart from the mib's that's gonna be either Riful or Isley. Riful had an idea they feigned death so how many ways are there to supress yoki anyway...?
A hypothetical reason for developing the pills would be to artificially supress excesses of yoma energy, which is greatly handy for dealing with a generation of male claymores suffering from the problem of getting carried away. Anything that phsycially retards that would be incredibly helpful.
My point is that if Riful knows that stronger claymores make stronger AB's, and she sees two claymores who are 'nearly there', then that's similar to claymores that are losing control and increasingly dependent on a medicine, that stops them from awakening...

(ah if i don't play the fool, this thread would be very silent) when's 79 out anyway?
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Old 2008-04-23, 17:25   Link #2319
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when's 79 out anyway?
Japanese and Chinese scans usually come out on the first day of the month or something like that, english scans usually come out by the 3rd, so expect it around May 3rd.
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Old 2008-04-23, 18:12   Link #2320
chibamonster
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We really do not know much about the pills pharmaceutical development. Whether half a day is half day light, 12 hours, 8 hours or what not we have no idea. We do not know much about the world of claymore as in how they measure time (no clocks) or whether their fictional world has the same time as we do. I am fine with everything not being explicitly described. The story is about relationships more than anything so as long as it stays focused on that other things being brushed over does not bother me. Remember when George Lucas decided to tell us the secret of the force in star wars was medichlorians? I'm just as happy not knowing in some cases .

As sleepy said pills might have been developed for stopping awakenings, but they might have been a complete failure. Or they are not a failure at all and the MiB's only use them for people in small doses because they want people to awaken. Or they were developed for the MiB's use originally. MiB's using them seems to make the most sense to me because they cannot sense youki but many have youki marks on their faces. Also their eyes are not silver. But once again, just a guess. Really we do not know much about the pills and they will probably have more information pop up about them in the future. For instance, the pills can be used for covert interrogations of claymores like Audrey as seen after Riful's encounter with the ghosts. It is also interesting to note that half a pill does not effect eye color, youki sensing or youki release as seen in Pieta. I think the pills will continue to be a major tool in the story.
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