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Old 2008-03-29, 18:01   Link #6061
Forceflow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
*cut*
Ok then. Can't wait to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaura117 View Post
Brain bending timetalk
So the fact that the info about the birthmark being a infinite loop is the clearest sign of a paradox in itself...

I understand but my head still hurts.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:01   Link #6062
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
I'm trying, I'm trying. I only just woke up, man.

I need to understand how Mikuru's explanation of time-travel works first though. I think I grasp how Time Travel as a whole works within the Haruhi universe, but I still don't quite understand Mikuru's explanation of it.

The way it's presented now, it seems to me that time planes are almost alterate universes...
That's what she thinks, yeah. Once again, she's wrong, but yeah, that's what she thinks.

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Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
Link to TVTropes if you can, I understand that way better than Wiki.

/EDIT Also, what season is it when they're having their nice riverside walk? ...Summer? Slightly after Spring?

(I don't know when Sakuras bloom...)
Spring. It's May.

And I'll try and find something on TVTropes.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:03   Link #6063
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Right. Getting to work on the Editjob...
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:03   Link #6064
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Originally Posted by kaura117 View Post
Really, Haruhi got her wish to meet sliders and time travelers in one go. The only reason why Kyon isn't aware of this when he told her on Tanabata that he hasn't met sliders yet is that, unlike, say, me, he stopped delving into theoretical physics hypotheses when he got over his fascination with the weird, odd and supernatural. A lot of what Mikuru outlined really only makes sense if we assume some variant of the Wheeler Cosmology that still allows causal effects to propagate not only linearly, but across planes as well.
That isn't how time travel in the Haruverse actually works, though.

And Vol. 9 has a new character strongly hinted to be a slider, and possibly an alternate, older version of Kyon's Sister.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:03   Link #6065
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We shouldn't concentrate on the time traveling unless people are keen to change the time-speak that Mitsuuru will be saying.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:04   Link #6066
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's what she thinks, yeah. Once again, she's wrong, but yeah, that's what she thinks.
I don't know. It seems to me that one of the key conflicts in the story is between the Copenhagen and Wheeler interpretation of quantum mechanics, as represented by the conflict between Mitsuru's agency and the Sneering Bastard.

Edit: As a note, I do admit that my own biases may be coloring my perspective. I like the multiple worlds interpretation. I like Haruhi. Sasaki's unchanging state rubs me the wrong way.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:07   Link #6067
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Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
The way it's presented now, it seems to me that time planes are almost alternate universes...
That would make Asahina the slider, not the time-traveler (the slider has yet to show up)

I think the way time travel works in the Haruhi 'verse seems to only allow time travel in discrete units, I.E. I can travel back 2 years or 2.5 years but not 2.435 years. (of course, their units, or 'time planes' probably represent much smaller units of time.) Of course, a 'time plane's' size could depend on the nature of the events within that plane....

On the other hand, a 'time plane' could be a distinct, inalterable section of time. The events within a time plane cannot be altered, but you can change whats in them (Like a person, I.E. Time travel) or change which time plane they lead to. (I.E. when you have a a situation that could lead to to events, you end up with to possible 'time planes' to continue on to.)
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:10   Link #6068
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Originally Posted by kaura117 View Post
I don't know. It seems to me that one of the key conflicts in the story is between the Copenhagen and Wheeler interpretation of quantum mechanics, as represented by the conflict between Mitsuru's agency and the Sneering Bastard.
Like to explain this?

From what I do get from reading the novels, is that Fujiwara's time travelers think that they CAN change the past, whereas Mikuru's time travelers know that they can't.


And Jintor, the Haruverse time travel is based off of this trope with a dash of this one.

Haruhi and her ilk alone are able to change time, which is why Kyon has to Set Right What Once Went Wrong in Vol. 4 using his Ripple Effect Proof Memory.

That enough tropes for you?
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:12   Link #6069
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@Dragon There isn't any limits, except that they can't go back further than 3 years; the time-quake as they call it. This may or may not be true at all actually. It's a complicated thing in itself, that should be left to heavy discussion by the people who've spent alot of time on this (Not me)
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:13   Link #6070
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Like to explain this?

From what I do get from reading the novels, is that Fujiwara's time travelers think that they CAN change the past, whereas Mikuru's time travelers know that they can't.


And Jintor, the Haruverse time travel is based off of this trope with this one added.

Haruhi and her ilk alone are able to change time, which is why Kyon has to Set Right What Once Went Wrong in Vol. 4 using his Ripple Effect Proof Memory.

Feel better now?
Eh? I interpreted Fujiwara's strife against the time traveling agency as a battle preserve "natural" historical narrative. It's explicitly stated that his group "does not wish for the existence of time travelers, or for the possibility of time travel."
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:13   Link #6071
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
@Dragon There isn't any limits, except that they can't go back further than 3 years; the time-quake as they call it. This may or may not be true at all actually. It's a complicated thing in itself, that should be left to heavy discussion by the people who've spent alot of time on this (Not me)
They were able to go back further than three years before the timequake, though.

The presence of the rod on Tsuruya Hill in Vol. 7 proves that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaura117 View Post
Eh? I interpreted Fujiwara's strife against the time traveling agency as a battle preserve "natural" historical narrative. It's explicitly stated that his group "does not wish for the existence of time travelers, or for the possibility of time travel."
Exactly. They think they can change time. They can't, not on their own.

They want to be able to erase time travelers and time travel from existence, and for that, they need Haruhi.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:15   Link #6072
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
We shouldn't concentrate on the time traveling unless people are keen to change the time-speak that Mitsuuru will be saying.
The point is that if I can't understand the infodump at a glance, probably most readers who aren't versed in Time-Travel Theorums won't be able to either. And since Mitsuuru/Mikuru's infodump is crucial to Kyon's understanding, I need to editjob the whole infodump to try and make it more understandable. And to do that, I need to know what Mikuru/Mitsuuru's current knowledge of time-travel is.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:16   Link #6073
Kaisos Erranon
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The point is that if I can't understand the infodump at a glance, probably most readers who aren't versed in Time-Travel Theorums won't be able to either. And since Mitsuuru/Mikuru's infodump is crucial to Kyon's understanding, I need to editjob the whole infodump to try and make it more understandable. And to do that, I need to know what Mikuru/Mitsuuru's current knowledge of time-travel is.
You're not supposed to understand it. Kyon doesn't either.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:17   Link #6074
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
They were able to go back further than three years before the timequake, though.

The presence of the rod on Tsuruya Hill in Vol. 7 proves that.



Exactly. They think they can change time. They can't, not on their own.

They want to be able to erase time travelers and time travel from existence, and for that, they need Haruhi.
But there's no mention of how the rod got there in the first place.

Premonition to a future where the time quake issue is resolved?
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:17   Link #6075
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But it should be understandable.

It should at the very least make sense. You should be able to recognize that Mitsuuru is being lied to when the actual time travel comes into play later in the novels.

And to be able to recognize that Mitsuuru was being lied to you need to understand wtf he was actually saying.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:19   Link #6076
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by kaura117 View Post
But there's no mention of how the rod got there in the first place.
Time travelers went there and left it there by accident before the timequake happened.

Remember, the fault in the timeline wasn't always there.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:20   Link #6077
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Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
But it should be understandable.

It should at the very least make sense. You should be able to recognize that Mitsuuru is being lied to when the actual time travel comes into play later in the novels.

And to be able to recognize that Mitsuuru was being lied to you need to understand wtf he was actually saying.
Dude, time travel isn't something that makes intuitive sense. Hell, not even mathematical sense. You can make it sound impressive, sure, but "sense" isn't part of the package. It's not even part of the same product lineup.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:21   Link #6078
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
But it should be understandable.

It should at the very least make sense. You should be able to recognize that Mitsuuru is being lied to when the actual time travel comes into play later in the novels.

And to be able to recognize that Mitsuuru was being lied to you need to understand wtf he was actually saying.
It is understandable.

According to him, time is set up into "planes" (basically alternate universes) into which a traveler from another plane can "jump". Due to this, his presence has no effect on the "timeline" which really doesn't exist.

Get it now?
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:21   Link #6079
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Time travelers went there and left it there by accident before the timequake happened.

Remember, the fault in the timeline wasn't always there.
Well, there's the alternative hypothesis mentioned in the book: not time travelers, but ancient civilizations.

Really, we need a frame shot of Haruhi's private library to even guess at what's really sneaking around in the background.
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Old 2008-03-29, 18:22   Link #6080
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Blegh here was my crack at them folks.

Kuyoh, Kyoko, and messed up Sasaki

Anyway, what's a slider? >_>
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