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Old 2008-04-13, 19:43   Link #8081
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Megex View Post
No, I meant...imagining Mitsuuru in the same situations as Shinji is freaky (and using "freaky" to mean "kinda strange/weird/creepy/scary". That is, thinking of Mitsuuru piloting a giant cyborg that tends to go berserk is kinda freaky.).
So Mitsuuru's mother's soul is sealed inside of said berserk giant cyborg?

LOL PLOT TWIST.
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Old 2008-04-13, 19:48   Link #8082
rin15498
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It seems that not even Danny Choo can escape the gravity of Kyonko; http://www.dannychoo.com/detail/mac/...73/Kyonko.html
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Old 2008-04-13, 20:00   Link #8083
Roger Rambo
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I'm gonna have to agree with Kaisos on this one. Haruki taking Kyonko's interaction with Mitsuru as seriously as Haruhi did regarding Kyon and Mikuru doesn't make sense.

It comes down to basic evolution. A woman with a low skill level can be considered useful because she can carry offspring to term, and help raise them. The only thing useful thing about men in our caveman days was their ability to chuck spears at mammoths. Evolutionarily speaking, wimpy men are useless to a hunter gather society.

That's why humans generally speaking, have a higher tolerance to meek and wimpy females, and in some cultures it's actually desired (No idea why, Give me "Get away from her you Bitch!" Sigourney Weaver any day"). Truly wimpy guys though are given very little slack. I find it hard to believe that Kyonko will hold the same level of effection to Misturu that Kyon had for Mikuru. Haruki is also less likely to view Mitsuru as a viable threat.

And as someone said before, Kyonko is probably going to feel far more grateful to Yuuki than Kyon felt for Yuki. And again as mentioned before, it's not that much of a canon break, given that Kyon later does become quite attached to Yuki.
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Old 2008-04-13, 21:44   Link #8084
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Regardless of Evolutionary reasons (which I don't think Haruki will be thinking of at the spur of the moment anyways...), Haruki will still be seeing Kyonko interacting with Mitsuru more than anyone else. It doesn't make sense if Haruki feels threatened by Yuuki who has never been seen interacting with Kyonko at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyon-chan and Yuuki went to the library together, remember? Kyon-chan even responded to Haruki on the phone with "I just woke up."

Sure, Kyon-chan has blushed at Mitsuuru in the maid outfit, but, for that matter, so has Haruki... and it's not like Haruki himself can't have a similar effect on Kyon-chan when he strips...

Mitsuuru isn't a threat because he's basically a cuter version of Shinji Ikari, and Haruki recognizes this.

When I first started writing this, I knew that the way Mitsuuru was portrayed would make him unattractive (sexually) towards girls like Kyon-chan, so I knew there'd be problems with the story later...

The thing is that Mikuru is a threat to Haruhi because she's sexually desirable to Kyon... it doesn't work the same way when genderbended.

It's not like this will have much of an overall effect anyway on the story, as later stories focus almost exclusively on Haruhi's jealousy of Yuki anyway.
It doesn't matter if Mitsuru is or isn't attractive to Kyonko, all that matters is whether it seems like he is to Haruki.

I'd agree that it doesn't seem like Kyonko has any of the sexual feelings Kyon had for Mikuru, but that's not what's important.

What's important is to note that whether it be provocative or sexual or lustful or not, it has always been Mitsuru that Kyonko shows the most connection to in the presence of Haruki. This has nothing to do with actual romance, but perceived romance in the eyes of Haruki. It's Haruki who has little social experience, how is he to realize that any feelings Kyonko shows for Misturu is almost purely maternal/sisterly? All he can see is a girl caring a little more than she should for the spineless little boy who's a million less amazing than he is. And the fact that he thinks he's better and the fact that Kyonko still seems to care more for Mitsuru, that would be what sparks his jealousy and outrage the most.

Besides, if Haruki actually did think that Kyonko spent her time "playing" with Yuuki during their "library time" then I don't really think that he would want Kyonko to come along with him to closed space at all. Cause y'know, then he would think that she's like a totally different person than what he previously thought as well as a complete slut.

And god damnit, this has nothing to do with Kyonko's later relationship with Yuuki.
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Old 2008-04-13, 21:51   Link #8085
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discreet View Post
It doesn't matter if Mitsuru is or isn't attractive to Kyonko, all that matters is whether it seems like he is to Haruki.

I'd agree that it doesn't seem like Kyonko has any of the sexual feelings Kyon had for Mikuru, but that's not what's important.

What's important is to note that whether it be provocative or sexual or lustful or not, it has always been Mitsuru that Kyonko shows the most connection to in the presence of Haruki. This has nothing to do with actual romance, but perceived romance in the eyes of Haruki. It's Haruki who has little social experience, how is he to realize that any feelings Kyonko shows for Misturu is almost purely maternal/sisterly? All he can see is a girl caring a little more than she should for the spineless little boy who's a million less amazing than he is. And the fact that he thinks he's better and the fact that Kyonko still seems to care more for Mitsuru, that would be what sparks his jealousy and outrage the most.

Besides, if Haruki actually did think that Kyonko spent her time "playing" with Yuuki during their "library time" then I don't really think that he would want Kyonko to come along with him to closed space at all. Cause y'know, then he would think that she's like a totally different person than what he previously thought as well as a complete slut.

And god damnit, this has nothing to do with Kyonko's later relationship with Yuuki.
I'm still going to do it if I have enough people agreeing with me.

See, Haruki can't even consider the possibility that Kyon-chan could like Mitsuuru. Ever. Sure, Mitsuuru likes Kyon-chan, but... I don't think Haruki would consider it a possibility, even if there was evidence, which there's not.

The optical mouse scene was the straw that broke the camel's back after many other incidents. Kyon obviously liked Mikuru, and Haruhi knew this, but didn't want to deal with it. But seeing it shoved in her face like that...

As for the closed space thing, Haruhi didn't want Kyon there. She wanted John Smith. Unfortunately, despite what Haruhi believes... yeah.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here without sounding too sexist is that, traditionally, it's the guys that chase after the girls. Mitsuuru is an entirely different kind of threat than Mikuru was, and, due to his spinelessness, is not one that Haruki should ever have to worry about.


Edit: Okay, what about this scenario?

Kyon-chan is wrestling with Mitsuuru for the mouse. She's so distracted that she doesn't notice Haruki come in the room, walk up behind them and grab the mouse from her.

He then angrily lectures Mitsuuru, Kyon-chan tries to defend him, and then Haruki notices the folder.

Oh snap.

As for the password, a fanfic I linked to earlier posited that "everyone know's Kyon's password. He uses his sister's name." Despite the awesome joke there, I can use that idea to explain how Haruki finds the photos.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:26   Link #8086
Jintor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Having someone toy with you like that is still traumatic... which still allows me to use Aebliss's (?) ideas for later. (I think it was Aebliss...)

*sigh* Also, you got rid of my references to the prologue... How she starts praying for sudden supernatural powers... and then, when that doesn't work, she prays for a saviour, and then BAM, Nagato bursts in.

I thought that was well done...
You'll notice that even if I left out Asakura audibly implying rape Kyonko was still more or less thinking it. Also, trauma! Besides, being attacked by a classmate is traumatizing enough for those purposes.

I thought the prayer for manifestation of super-powers was a little over-the-top and a bit unrealistic for Kyonko, given that she was frozen in space about to be beheaded. Might reinstate the prayers for a saviour, though, if it fits.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:47   Link #8087
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
You'll notice that even if I left out Asakura audibly implying rape Kyonko was still more or less thinking it. Also, trauma! Besides, being attacked by a classmate is traumatizing enough for those purposes.

I thought the prayer for manifestation of super-powers was a little over-the-top and a bit unrealistic for Kyonko, given that she was frozen in space about to be beheaded. Might reinstate the prayers for a saviour, though, if it fits.
Yeah, sweet.

Now if I can get more consensus on the Yuuki thing I can continue.
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:03   Link #8088
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This is more of a test then anyways to see how the charcaters will line up in english

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:15   Link #8089
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Originally Posted by ShinyaKyoto View Post
This is more of a test then anyways to see how the charcaters will line up in english

Spoiler:
What do you mean by a "test," exactly?
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:22   Link #8090
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Well, I was testing some of the lines. I was trying to see if they fit...
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:47   Link #8091
Kagedanji
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We're not going to do any dubbing. Leave that to the guys on Nico Nico Douga and have a guy sub them later.

We're trying to make a fan novel.
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Old 2008-04-14, 00:29   Link #8092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagedanji View Post
We're not going to do any dubbing. Leave that to the guys on Nico Nico Douga and have a guy sub them later.

We're trying to make a fan novel.
Kagedanji speaks true.
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Old 2008-04-14, 00:37   Link #8093
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I'll remove it then... anyways good luck with this, from what i read it's just awesome. I'll keep my eyes on this topic and maybe comment on a few things.
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Old 2008-04-14, 01:25   Link #8094
Kogetsu Shirogane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I love it when people treat their opinions as fact.


I like the Yuuki idea. Mitsuuru isn't enough of a threat, because Haruki KNOWS that Kyon-chan doesn't think of him like that, although he does know that Mitsuuru has feelings for Kyon-chan. He can't blame Kyon-chan for anything involving Mitsuuru.

With Yuuki, however, it's much easier.
Does this makes me the kettle to your pot, then? Because I think I was just called "black."


Haruhi wasn't all that threatened by Mikuru until seeing the two of them at the computer. All she saw between them up until that point is what you have Haruki seeing between Kyonko and Mitsuru.

Like I said, you have to actually add things in to cast suspicion on a possible YuukixKyonko relationship this early on, as there's only one instance of Haruhi actually seeing Kyon interacting with Yuki in a way that it would support a relationship between them. However, that connection is tentative at best, as all Haruhi had was Yuki staring at Kyon and Kyon looking nervous. That one incident is downplayed by Kyon trying to pull Haruhi off Mikuru on numerous attempts, the constant interaction between them, and Kyon generally holding Mikuru in higher regard than anyone else. All of which is still present in what you have already written.

Whether you realise it or not, everything is already present for Mitsuru to be responsible. Suddenly adding in parts to shift everything to Yuuki(or technically Kyonko herself, the way it's been put) could be quite jarring to people reading, and ultimately makes the buildup between Kyonko and Mitsuru pointless. The only thing this actually makes "easier" is the movie's script([blatant opinion]if you can even call it that[/blatant opinion]), as then it would make sense to cast Yuuki as the villain. Compared to the fact that you will have to go through and completely alter every "Haruki, Kyonko and Mitsuru/Yuuki" scene to fit this change, having Haruki freak out at the possibility that Kyonko prefers "scrawny little girly men" to "GARlords" . This also gives him an incentive to switch Mitsuru's outfits from feminine to masculine, as seeing Mitsuru dressed like a girl might have "caused Kyonko to stray" in Haruki's mind.

[blatant opinion]Besides, having him say "So you like girls, huh?" just seems like it's a better parallel to Haruhi asking Kyon if he has a "maid moe" than "So you like bookworms, huh?" as he can actually change Mitsuru's outward appearance; it would be a lot harder to get Yuuki to stop reading.[/blatant opinion]


I have added "blatant opinion" tags to parts that even I see as being opinions. However, as with every debate, anything that comes up on either side can easily be viewed as such by someone from the opposing side.
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2008-04-14, 01:36   Link #8095
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Does this makes me the kettle to your pot, then? Because I think I was just called "black."
Oooh, nice one, except that I was pointing out your use of "getting out of hand", which would imply that you think you have total control over this entire project.

Hey, I'm going for a fan consensus here like I always try to do. These characterizations is what the fanbase here, and myself, have decided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Haruhi wasn't all that threatened by Mikuru until seeing the two of them at the computer. All she saw between them up until that point is what you have Haruki seeing between Kyonko and Mitsuru.

Like I said, you have to actually add things in to cast suspicion on a possible YuukixKyonko relationship this early on, as there's only one instance of Haruhi actually seeing Kyon interacting with Yuki in a way that it would support a relationship between them. However, that connection is tentative at best, as all Haruhi had was Yuki staring at Kyon and Kyon looking nervous. That one incident is downplayed by Kyon trying to pull Haruhi off Mikuru on numerous attempts, the constant interaction between them, and Kyon generally holding Mikuru in higher regard than anyone else. All of which is still present in what you have already written.

Whether you realise it or not, everything is already present for Mitsuru to be responsible. Suddenly adding in parts to shift everything to Yuuki(or technically Kyonko herself, the way it's been put) could be quite jarring to people reading, and ultimately makes the buildup between Kyonko and Mitsuru pointless. The only thing this actually makes "easier" is the movie's script([blatant opinion]if you can even call it that[/blatant opinion]), as then it would make sense to cast Yuuki as the villain. Compared to the fact that you will have to go through and completely alter every "Haruki, Kyonko and Mitsuru/Yuuki" scene to fit this change, having Haruki freak out at the possibility that Kyonko prefers "scrawny little girly men" to "GARlords" . This also gives him an incentive to switch Mitsuru's outfits from feminine to masculine, as seeing Mitsuru dressed like a girl might have "caused Kyonko to stray" in Haruki's mind.
You have a definite point, but you're still missing mine. The fact is that Mitsuuru isn't enough of a threat, and Kyon-chan has never shown any interest in him other than a) The maid outfit, and b) defending him. Compare Kyon, who obviously liked Mikuru from the start. Haruhi knew this.

Kyon-chan treats Mitsuuru like her little brother, (regardless of whether or not Mitsuuru wants to get into her pants.) You'd think that Haruki would see that.

Kyon-chan hasn't shown any interest in Yuuki either, as you have said.

Also, getting rid of the maid outfit permanently would remove a lot of the trap jokes I want to set up later.


However... your negativity has removed any and all of my drive to actually work on this project now. Thanks.

Haruki can't get jealous of Mitsuuru because there's nothing to be jealous of. Haruki can't get jealous of Yuuki because that wouldn't follow the ORIGINAL WAY.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

In fact, the only real way I can see out of it, and the way I'm planning to do it, is if Haruki gets jealous of both of them at once, and storms out of the clubroom.
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Old 2008-04-14, 02:27   Link #8096
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Hey, long time lurker here just wanted to post my take on one scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

Edit: Okay, what about this scenario?

Kyon-chan is wrestling with Mitsuuru for the mouse. She's so distracted that she doesn't notice Haruki come in the room, walk up behind them and grab the mouse from her.

He then angrily lectures Mitsuuru, Kyon-chan tries to defend him, and then Haruki notices the folder.

Oh snap.
It's a good setup, but the problem I see is that Yuuki will definitely be in the room when this happens (Think, Yuki watching the mouse). If Haruki opens the folder and sees those pics of Yuuki x Kyonko, he would no doubt confront Yuuki about it. There's no way Haruki would just storm out of the room when the perpetrator is right there.

However, as an alternative follow-up:
  • Just as Kyonko is about to facepalm, Yuuki conjures up a spell that changes the contents of the folder right before Haruki opens it up (change it to like Yuuki reading or something)
  • Haruki will then say something along the lines of "I never authorized a picture like this! Hmmm, so you like the strong, silent type/bookworm/you're part of Yuuki fanclub too eh?"
  • Kyonko thinks something along the lines of "Wow, Yuuki sure is reliable. So yesterday wasn't just a dream."
  • She then stutters when she notices Haruki's question, causing Haruki to suspect that she really does like him.

I'm not very particular about whether Yuuki or Mitsuru is used as the firestarter, so long as it works and doesn't have a huge impact on the original character design. Great job so far, all.
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Old 2008-04-14, 05:33   Link #8097
Kogetsu Shirogane
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... I hate posting when in an unpleasant mood...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Oooh, nice one, except that I was pointing out your use of "getting out of hand", which would imply that you think you have total control over this entire project.

Hey, I'm going for a fan consensus here like I always try to do. These characterizations is what the fanbase here, and myself, have decided.
I never said that I was in charge, and I'm sorry if that's the way it seemed. And it appears as though there was a misunderstanding on both sides of this.

What I was referencing with the statement is that I could have posted almost immediately after the idea came up and said it would be a bad idea to make the change, but decided not to as I figured no one would actually take it seriously. However, no one aside from myself actually knew that I had thought this, and that is what is causing the problem here. As well, I most likely should have not included my previous messages about this subject in spoiler tags, as apparently my statements in them went ignored by everyone else.


Quote:
You have a definite point, but you're still missing mine. The fact is that Mitsuuru isn't enough of a threat, and Kyon-chan has never shown any interest in him other than a) The maid outfit, and b) defending him. Compare Kyon, who obviously liked Mikuru from the start. Haruhi knew this.

Kyon-chan treats Mitsuuru like her little brother, (regardless of whether or not Mitsuuru wants to get into her pants.) You'd think that Haruki would see that.
The thing is, out of all the people Haruki has seen Kyonko interact with, Mitsuru is the only one she's consistently polite with. Regardless of what her reasons for this may be, that's something else Haruki is certain to pick up on. Not to mention the fact that guys are notoriously bad when it comes to "figuring out" girls.

Quote:
Also, getting rid of the maid outfit permanently would remove a lot of the trap jokes I want to set up later.
Haruhi never fully got rid of the maid outfit, despite it being part of the problem. Mikuru wore the nurse outfit for an undisclosed time before Haruhi decided on switching back. After the same amount of time, Haruki could finally realize that Kyonko just isn't interested in Mitsuru and feel free to make him wear the costume whenever he wants him to.

Quote:
However... your negativity has removed any and all of my drive to actually work on this project now. Thanks.
I apologize. I'm currently directing my problems with things in the wrong direction, and I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to take this out on anyone in particular, but I ended up lashing out at you without thinking.

Quote:
Haruki can't get jealous of Mitsuuru because there's nothing to be jealous of. Haruki can't get jealous of Yuuki because that wouldn't follow the ORIGINAL WAY.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

In fact, the only real way I can see out of it, and the way I'm planning to do it, is if Haruki gets jealous of both of them at once, and storms out of the clubroom.
Again, there's been quite a bit of misunderstanding, most likely it's on my part. Let me try to explain my position on the issue. Please, don't think I'm accusing you of doing this.

I am opposed only to pushing the blame on Yuuki instead of Mitsuru, as it really doesn't make much sense without altering several parts of the storyline. While having them both have something to do with it will cause problems, I'm not seeing any major complications occurring so long as the "Yuuki x Kyonko" angle is kept relatively minor until around when the TDoS storyline pops up.

Again I'm sorry for all the trouble I caused. If my continuation of this is causing too much of a problem, I'll stop.
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2008-04-14, 06:17   Link #8098
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In fact, the only real way I can see out of it, and the way I'm planning to do it, is if Haruki gets jealous of both of them at once, and storms out of the clubroom.
That could work to.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:21   Link #8099
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Again I'm sorry for all the trouble I caused. If my continuation of this is causing too much of a problem, I'll stop.
It's fine, it's fine.

I just don't like it when people use terms like "getting out of hand" when applied to something that really isn't getting out of hand.

Thank you for your apology, I am sorry myself.
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Old 2008-04-14, 17:01   Link #8100
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just so u no I'm spreadin the word about this on bebo only just made the new group page & 3 ppl have join xD
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