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Old 2009-03-24, 23:52   Link #14201
otai
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OK, lets imagine Haruhi has achieve self awareness. Can Haruhi utilize her powers in a way that does not make sense to her?

Can she simply say I don't want any IDE in this here universe?

How should she achieve this? Does she goes on to figure out how exactly the IDE stores itself; then goes on to destroy that means of data storage?

She may also want all crabs to have soft shells, but that just doesn't make sense in you believe evolution; so that may remain impossible.

Otherwise, the Haruhiverse is filled with what Discworld calls narrativium; the substance that forms whatever you believe to be.
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Old 2009-03-24, 23:59   Link #14202
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Would that be before or after Endless Eight?



And welcome back, Kai...
Thanks man.

And I'd assume that Endless Eight gave her plenty of time for her to reflect on her fate. A long, long time to reflect.

I wonder how many times Yuki went crazy and killed them all that she didn't tell anyone about?

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Originally Posted by otai View Post
OK, lets imagine Haruhi has achieve self awareness. Can Haruhi utilize her powers in a way that does not make sense to her?

Can she simply say I don't want any IDE in this here universe?

How should she achieve this? Does she goes on to figure out how exactly the IDE stores itself; then goes on to destroy that means of data storage?

She may also want all crabs to have soft shells, but that just doesn't make sense in you believe evolution; so that may remain impossible.

Otherwise, the Haruhiverse is filled with what Discworld calls narrativium; the substance that forms whatever you believe to be.
I'd argue that Haruhi is narrativium incarnate.

The Haruhi universe is basically a massive, incredibly complex, SQL-based data structure, judging by how the IDE inputs its commands.

Controlling it is merely a matter of inputting the right commands. Haruhi's powers can take care of this for her.

A self-aware Haruhi would only need to will something to be true, and it would be.

This is what it means to be all-powerful, and why making Haruhi self-aware is an absolute last resort.
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:02   Link #14203
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She can change normal pigeons into the now extinct Carrier Pigeons on a whim without even knowing about it if she wants something enough.

She can make a colored contact lens into a deadly weapons just by believing it can (and yet doesn't even notice she did it...twice).

She can make a cat talk without noticing even when it is on camera and she's directing.

She can make the sakura trees bloom in October...and not notice anything is out of place.

Haruhi could be scary if she knew something.
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:16   Link #14204
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Makes you wonder how she does so well on exams...

Must be high Int/low Wis kinda thing.

Or she cheats with her powers. I dunno.
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:33   Link #14205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
She can change normal pigeons into the now extinct Carrier Pigeons on a whim without even knowing about it if she wants something enough.

She can make a colored contact lens into a deadly weapons just by believing it can (and yet doesn't even notice she did it...twice).

She can make a cat talk without noticing even when it is on camera and she's directing.

She can make the sakura trees bloom in October...and not notice anything is out of place.

Haruhi could be scary if she knew something.
We never actually find out if Haruhi noticed Shami talking during filming or not, as Kyon was focused on Shamisen, and Nagato almost immediately mentioned ventriloquism as an excuse. What we DO know is that Haruhi realized that the film had a talking cat, as The Counterattack of Nagato Yuki featured(err, will feature) Shami talking once again, albeit with a different voice.
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:35   Link #14206
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Well, if she did come to realize her power, the next step would be to use that power to gain omniscience. But if she does, knowing everything that ever is, was, will be and might be, she might just divorce herself from the world and hang out on Mars.

Dr. Manhattan Haruhi, anyone?
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:46   Link #14207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No, Yuki rewrote the universe. That is what the Harupowers DO.
I figure that Yuki rewrote Mikuru's history so that she was born and raised in the present to genetically appropriate parents.
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:48   Link #14208
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Dr. Manhattan Haruhi, anyone?
Yuki is more like this, really, especially in the "awareness of the future but unable to do anything about it" thing.

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Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
I figure that Yuki rewrote Mikuru's history so that she was born and raised in the present to genetically appropriate parents.
This, yeah. Probably.
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Old 2009-03-25, 01:12   Link #14209
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One more thing, I believe it is implied that the IDE could avoid the fallout from Harupowers if it chooses to.

Vol. 1: Yuki states that the IDE hopes that they return to the universe because Haruhi may be a once in a universe occurance. This implies that however screwed up they make the world and the timeline by disappearing, the IDE will remain.

Endless 8: while the rest of the universe goes on a time loop, the IDE somehow remembers each one.

With that in mind, would you blame Yuki for arming Ryoko with the ability to fight off other Data Entities?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yuki is more like this, really, especially in the "awareness of the future but unable to do anything about it" thing.
I'd like a glowing blue Haruhi full frontal though. And Kyon = Rorschach?
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Old 2009-03-25, 01:16   Link #14210
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Thing is, Yuki seems to have only rewritten roughly one year of time (perhaps less). As some events still happen as they always did, and she didn't write herself out of the escape program from 3.5 years ago. Kyon of course remembers everything since she didn't tamper with him (much like Haruhi's will never tampers with Kyon..save maybe Endless Eight due to the resets). But the library incident is more or less the same from Haruhi's first city investigation.

The real questions get to be...how do we genderbend all this....Book 4 was one of those Bridges to Cross later.

Is it Later yet?
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Old 2009-03-25, 01:22   Link #14211
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Vol. 1: Yuki states that the IDE hopes that they return to the universe because Haruhi may be a once in a universe occurance. This implies that however screwed up they make the world and the timeline by disappearing, the IDE will remain.
They don't know this. At all. They were in despair because they lost Haruhi, as I recall.

But that's book one and a lot of the concepts weren't fully formed yet.

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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Endless 8: while the rest of the universe goes on a time loop, the IDE somehow remembers each one.
IDE exists outside of time.

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Originally Posted by otai View Post
With that in mind, would you blame Yuki for arming Ryoko with the ability to fight off other Data Entities?
She had that? I just remember her being a determined murderous girl with a knife.

She may have had her Interface abilities, I don't know.


Keep in mind that Yuki DID destroy the IDE during that period of time. The book even says it.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Thing is, Yuki seems to have only rewritten roughly one year of time (perhaps less). As some events still happen as they always did, and she didn't write herself out of the escape program from 3.5 years ago. Kyon of course remembers everything since she didn't tamper with him (much like Haruhi's will never tampers with Kyon..save maybe Endless Eight due to the resets). But the library incident is more or less the same from Haruhi's first city investigation.
Minus Haruhi and the investigation. Actually, Kyon may never have done that at all, as, for all intents and purposes, nothing in that universe existed before December 18th.

It's all moot anyway, as Kyon fixing the timestream destroyed everything that happened in Vol. 4, and the Yukiverse only existed for like ten minutes.

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The real questions get to be...how do we genderbend all this....Book 4 was one of those Bridges to Cross later.

Is it Later yet?
Sure.
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Old 2009-03-25, 01:34   Link #14212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
They don't know this. At all. They were in despair because they lost Haruhi, as I recall.

But that's book one and a lot of the concepts weren't fully formed yet.
Spoiler for Quote:


Well, that could be bravado though.
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Old 2009-03-25, 01:52   Link #14213
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I'd like a glowing blue Haruhi full frontal though.
This is the Genderbending thread, so it'd be glowing blue Haruki, wouldn't it?
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Old 2009-03-25, 02:09   Link #14214
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No doubt someone will do that now.

Would rather have Haruhi or Kyon-chan for that

Or a chocolate Mikuru with a solid blue candy shell (giant "H" or "M" needed).
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Old 2009-03-25, 02:57   Link #14215
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Besides, wouldn't Yuuki be closer in personality?
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Old 2009-03-25, 03:20   Link #14216
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I can see the fangirling already.


So how will Tsuruya-san be when Kyonko busts into to get Mitsuuru?
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Old 2009-03-25, 06:20   Link #14217
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What the frack is going on with the signature?
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Old 2009-03-25, 07:15   Link #14218
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
The time travellers at least exist by necessity, since Mikuru has to be there; Mikuru was probably brainwashed and the future simply cut off with a Time Quake.
Maybe not. The future people could have an absolutely huge recruitment pool. They could have just picked out someone who best fit their needs.

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How should she achieve this? Does she goes on to figure out how exactly the IDE stores itself; then goes on to destroy that means of data storage?
Haruhi is often shown changing things she often has practical awareness of. I remember in the filming of Mikuru she reversed some polarity or some shit. Unconsciously.

It'd seem optimistic to hope that not having intimate knowledge on her query would keep her from killing you.
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She may also want all crabs to have soft shells, but that just doesn't make sense in you believe evolution; so that may remain impossible.
Except look at Shamisen. Suddenly he not only gained the ability to talk, but a level of sapience comparable to most humans. How was his cat brain able to process this?

The only rational law that bind Haruhi's power, is her own common sense of how she thinks the world should work.



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One more thing, I believe it is implied that the IDE could avoid the fallout from Harupowers if it chooses to.

Vol. 1: Yuki states that the IDE hopes that they return to the universe because Haruhi may be a once in a universe occurance. This implies that however screwed up they make the world and the timeline by disappearing, the IDE will remain.
This fall flat in the face of the fat that the IDE don't seem to have any comprehension of death. Asakura didn't have the faintest idea why Kyon didn't want her to stab him. It's very possible that the IDE in it's current form can't comprehend the concept of it's own personal destruction. It's actions around Haruhi may be analogous to a big school yard bully running into a bear in the woods and not having enough common sense gained from getting threatened to realize he shouldn't bash it's nose.

And again, the fact that Yuki using the power was able to erase the IDE suggests that Haruhi would be capable of it to if she decided to.
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So how will Tsuruya-san be when Kyonko busts into to get Mitsuuru?
Read some text that dealt with that. It mainly differed in that he was less rough (not needed since he out masses Kyonko by so much) and he didn't seem mad about Kynko getting to aggressive with Mitsuuru. In fact, he seemed to mostly be flirting with her.
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Old 2009-03-25, 17:38   Link #14219
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"I want that thing that took Yuki away to be gone."

That's all Haruhi really has to do. Which is why the Organization, the time travelers and the Data thingie have been trying to get on her good side. As a result, don't expect Nagato to disappear until Haruhi begins wanting her gone*, which isn't happening anytime soon.

* Whether Haruhi or the Data thingie does it is irrelevant. The fact is that she is "protected" as long as Haruhi likes her.
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Old 2009-03-25, 20:07   Link #14220
otai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Maybe not. The future people could have an absolutely huge recruitment pool. They could have just picked out someone who best fit their needs.
Do you mean Mikuru is someone from the present whose brain the future people messed with?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Haruhi is often shown changing things she often has practical awareness of. I remember in the filming of Mikuru she reversed some polarity or some shit. Unconsciously.

It'd seem optimistic to hope that not having intimate knowledge on her query would keep her from killing you.


Except look at Shamisen. Suddenly he not only gained the ability to talk, but a level of sapience comparable to most humans. How was his cat brain able to process this?


The only rational law that bind Haruhi's power, is her own common sense of how she thinks the world should work.
Volume 2 is a world where narrativium spilled out, or some weird closed space covered the town. The weird things that happened because Haruhi started believing in movie physics, and didn't really bother to differentiate between "reality" and "fiction".

The thing with narrativium is that Haruhi's wishes would always bring about HER desired outcome, because that's how the story would flow. Probably a reason why most of the use of her power is subconscious.

Does anyone know the story of the sadistic genie? If you don't word your wish properly, the results always backfire? Would Haruhi's awareness of her power enhance or cripple her? Say she decides to change the cosmological constant, or the speed of light, can she really imagine the consequences? If she can't fully imagine it, I'd argue you have the ability to find a loophole to avoid said power.

Imagine you are the IDE. You know Haruhi is coming. Wouldn't you create something that's distinctly not the IDE but still capable of carrying out your objectives?

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This fall flat in the face of the fat that the IDE don't seem to have any comprehension of death. Asakura didn't have the faintest idea why Kyon didn't want her to stab him. It's very possible that the IDE in it's current form can't comprehend the concept of it's own personal destruction. It's actions around Haruhi may be analogous to a big school yard bully running into a bear in the woods and not having enough common sense gained from getting threatened to realize he shouldn't bash it's nose.

And again, the fact that Yuki using the power was able to erase the IDE suggests that Haruhi would be capable of it to if she decided to.
But why shouldn't the IDE be capable of surviving it? By any measure of omnipotence, the moment Haruhi decided to end the world, it should have ended right then. Why should she create a sealed reality with her and Kyon, and allow other time and (albeit limited) access to Kyon in there? Narrativium demanded rather arbitrary limits to her power, I don't see why this arbitrary limit in particular is wrong.
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