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Old 2009-03-25, 20:39   Link #14221
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Do you mean Mikuru is someone from the present whose brain the future people messed with?[
Um, no. I'm saying she's a future person who was a member of the time travel organization and was selected specifically for this mission due to her ability to get close to Haruhi/Kyon.

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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Volume 2 is a world where narrativium spilled out, or some weird closed space covered the town. The weird things that happened because Haruhi started believing in movie physics, and didn't really bother to differentiate between "reality" and "fiction".

The thing with narrativium is that Haruhi's wishes would always bring about HER desired outcome, because that's how the story would flow. Probably a reason why most of the use of her power is subconscious.
It's only like that at the moment because she's unaware of it. The implication that if Haruhi became aware of her powers, she'd gain conscious control over them.
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Does anyone know the story of the sadistic genie? If you don't word your wish properly, the results always backfire? Would Haruhi's awareness of her power enhance or cripple her? Say she decides to change the cosmological constant, or the speed of light, can she really imagine the consequences? If she can't fully imagine it, I'd argue you have the ability to find a loophole to avoid said power.
which assumes that Haruhi's power has a mind of it's own. It doesn't. The sole will behind it is Haruhi's. It is her will/beliefs that determines what it does.

Haruhi's cosmic powers will disobey her only so much as your arm does when he command it to crush an annoying fly zipping around your face.
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
Imagine you are the IDE. You know Haruhi is coming. Wouldn't you create something that's distinctly not the IDE but still capable of carrying out your objectives?
Trying to hide from the trans galactic reality warper is a rather futile effort. Haruhi could simply wish to know of the existence of any survivors and promptly annihilate them.

For a race bound by the laws of physics, Haruhi is an out of context problem that you can't exactly find an easy way out.
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
But why shouldn't the IDE be capable of surviving it? By any measure of omnipotence, the moment Haruhi decided to end the world, it should have ended right then. Why should she create a sealed reality with her and Kyon, and allow other time and (albeit limited) access to Kyon in there? Narrativium demanded rather arbitrary limits to her power, I don't see why this arbitrary limit in particular is wrong.
Because you're looking at what she's doing subconsciously. It's nowhere near as direct as if you directly went about doing it. And please remember that she was making an entirely different universe out of nothing. When compared to entities that are limited by E=MC2, Haruhi powers HAVE no arbitrary limits.

Any apparent limits are Haruhi's own mind controlling it.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:07   Link #14222
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Haruhi can create a new universe because she is unpleased with her current one. It is assumed that the previous world is destroyed after a time. I'm not sure if this can be confirmed.

She may or may not be able to destroy the IDE, but she can effectively make a new universe in which they do not exist and transfere whom she wants to that universe. This effectively ends up with the same result, IDE out of the picture.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:09   Link #14223
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Given how little all the factions understand Haruhi, it'd be very naively optimistic to assume that her ability to completely annihilate you isn't a possibility.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:15   Link #14224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Haruhi's cosmic powers will disobey her only so much as your arm does when he command it to crush an annoying fly zipping around your face.
Trying to hide from the trans galactic reality warper is a rather futile effort. Haruhi could simply wish to know of the existence of any survivors and promptly annihilate them.

For a race bound by the laws of physics, Haruhi is an out of context problem that you can't exactly find an easy way out.
Because you're looking at what she's doing subconsciously. It's nowhere near as direct as if you directly went about doing it. And please remember that she was making an entirely different universe out of nothing. When compared to entities that are limited by E=MC2, Haruhi powers HAVE no arbitrary limits.

Any apparent limits are Haruhi's own mind controlling it.
That assumes Haruhi's powers has some sort of fuzzy logic device that does exactly what she intends, rather than what she wills. Unless her first step is Dr. Manhattan style omniscience, Haruhi's mind is limited by logic and perception.

If she wants to hunt for survivors, she must know what are "survivors". Data caches hidden in public servers in the internet? Ordered crystals formations on Orion-1? Narrativium would give her the exact power to know exactly, but narrativium would also give the IDE escape if the story so requires.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:22   Link #14225
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Haruhi doesn't have to use a scalpel...she could use a sledgehammer. "There are no aliens in my universe" ~sayeth the lord.....and there were no more aliens....

Scary huh?

Since in theory, that is how there are aliens, time travelers and espers (and sliders) in Haruhi's Universe. Sure she made them so they "always existed" (aside from the espers that came about suddenly), but that doesn't means she can't just unwill them to exist.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:30   Link #14226
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
This fall flat in the face of the fat that the IDE don't seem to have any comprehension of death. Asakura didn't have the faintest idea why Kyon didn't want her to stab him. It's very possible that the IDE in it's current form can't comprehend the concept of it's own personal destruction. It's actions around Haruhi may be analogous to a big school yard bully running into a bear in the woods and not having enough common sense gained from getting threatened to realize he shouldn't bash it's nose.
I think that the IDE is a kind of super-organism like an ant colony. The only death that it fears is that of the IDE as a whole, while any single unit (such as Asakura or Yuki) is as expendable as a single cell from our own bodies. The IDE's inability to grasp that as far as humans are concerned, the death of a human means the irreplacable loss of part of the human's data with no backup (i.e. the person's own memories), means that the IDE can not understand why killing one human is not like cutting your hair or trimming the vegetation in your garden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otai
Volume 2 is a world where narrativium spilled out, or some weird closed space covered the town. The weird things that happened because Haruhi started believing in movie physics, and didn't really bother to differentiate between "reality" and "fiction".

The thing with narrativium is that Haruhi's wishes would always bring about HER desired outcome, because that's how the story would flow. Probably a reason why most of the use of her power is subconscious.

Does anyone know the story of the sadistic genie? If you don't word your wish properly, the results always backfire? Would Haruhi's awareness of her power enhance or cripple her? Say she decides to change the cosmological constant, or the speed of light, can she really imagine the consequences? If she can't fully imagine it, I'd argue you have the ability to find a loophole to avoid said power.
Let's see, if you change the speed of light by more than a couple percent, then all the other properties of optics and electromagnetics change. Most prominently, light will not be focused properly by lenses or absorbed properly by cameras or eyes, so all electronics and organisms will immediately become almost totally blind. More disturbingly, the strength of the forces binding molecules would change, which means that chemicals would start to react at widely different temperatures (spontaneous human combustion, anybody?).

If Haruhi becomes aware of her power, then I do hope that the whole subconscious-takes-care-of-the-details part remains, so that all Haruhi has to do is focus on the outcome rather than the process. She is like the computer user running programs without having to bother with how the code and hardware actually function.

Last edited by ijuinkun; 2009-03-25 at 21:46.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:37   Link #14227
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
That assumes Haruhi's powers has some sort of fuzzy logic device that does exactly what she intends, rather than what she wills. Unless her first step is Dr. Manhattan style omniscience, Haruhi's mind is limited by logic and perception.
Which given her abilities, could very well be changed.

Haruhi has no limit to how far she can escalate.
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Originally Posted by otai View Post
If she wants to hunt for survivors, she must know what are "survivors". Data caches hidden in public servers in the internet? Ordered crystals formations on Orion-1? Narrativium would give her the exact power to know exactly, but narrativium would also give the IDE escape if the story so requires.
Or maybe more along the lines of "I want to know where all the IDE are hiding".


Any survial strategy used against Haruhi that doesn't center around keeping her very happy, is essentially based on allot of mythos optimism.

"Maybe she won't be able to see us in these buckets..."
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Old 2009-03-25, 22:04   Link #14228
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I take a 2 day hiatus and this thread goes crazy. Nice job... Now I've kinda lost where we are with anything...

A very late, Welcome back Kaisos.

And remember, we cannot combine the theories of the three groups, IDE, the Organization and the time travelers. Remember that they come from completely different perspectives. The only thing that is probably for sure is that Haruhi, and by the transitive property, Haruki, is not normal. We cannot say as a fact that the IDE exists outside of time because from their perspective, Haruhi created a data explosion not stopped/recreated time. However, by the espers' theory, the universe, and technically time if the start of the universe is considered the start of time, was created and every memory of before that 3 years ago is a false memory. Therefore, because the IDE cannot create data out of nothing, the IDE did not exist before 3 years back and was created at the 3 year mark. Of course, nothing can be proven because Haruhi, by the time traveler's theory, sealed everything from before 3 years ago. Therefore, we cannot take a single version of the events 3 years ago as truth.

tldr, just try not to hapharardly combine these theories. On that note, I don't have anything else to say.
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Last edited by dragon4dudes; 2009-03-25 at 22:14. Reason: not finished... lol
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Old 2009-03-25, 22:33   Link #14229
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Figuring out just what Haruhi can and can't do leads us to what Yuki can and can't do in the 4th volume, and thus leads to what Haruki and Yuuki can do.

Thus gets us to "just how is Book 4 to be genderbent". Since is seems to be the central novel outside of the first book.
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:37   Link #14230
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Perhaps a viewing of Forbidden Planet can give us a hint of what Haruhi can do...



EDIT: Perhaps a viewing of Star Trek The Motion Picture can give us a hint of what the IDE wants...
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:39   Link #14231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Which given her abilities, could very well be changed.

Haruhi has no limit to how far she can escalate.

Or maybe more along the lines of "I want to know where all the IDE are hiding".


Any survial strategy used against Haruhi that doesn't center around keeping her very happy, is essentially based on allot of mythos optimism.

"Maybe she won't be able to see us in these buckets..."
Can she make 1+1 = 3?. There's narrativium logic, where anything can happen; and that other sort were humans lie to themselves about so they don't go crazy.

Realistically, the IDE would simply strike Kyon dumb and hijack Haruhi's power first. But they don't, which implies their objective: Evolving themselves by observing Haruhi's evolution; is rather more important than self preservation. I entertain the possibility that they would simply leave the universe if Haruhi stops being a valid observation target. Or being at the apex of their possible existance, simply choose to die.
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Old 2009-03-26, 01:44   Link #14232
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Making something from nothing also implys that one can make nothing from something. If Haruhi can make data from nothingness, she could just as easily make something into nothingness.

There is nowhere to hide from Haruhi if she wants you to disappear. It isn't a matter of "we can find away around her powers" it is more, she'll erase the universe and make her own that doesn't have you in it anymore.

Since when are "god powers" realistic?
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Old 2009-03-26, 02:33   Link #14233
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Pretty much the only way to be at all safe, then, is to ensure that Haruhi is NOT interested in your demise, either by getting on her good side, or by staying completely outside of her awareness.
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Old 2009-03-26, 03:18   Link #14234
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Ok guys, how about we forget all this crap and get to genderbending again...

For the "Kyon menaces Yuki" scene, how about we use the shoujo manga template of Quiet-Jerk-With-Heart-of-Gold exploding temper type scene. Kyonko bugs Yuuki too much, he pins her to the wall in retaliation, but instantly apologises ("because his temper scares himself" shoujo manga hero style), then retreats back to his seat for quiet reading.

This makes Yuuki 2.0 a pastiche of both Mitsuuru, Haruki, and various shoujo manga.
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Old 2009-03-26, 04:23   Link #14235
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Pretty much the only way to be at all safe, then, is to ensure that Haruhi is NOT interested in your demise, either by getting on her good side, or by staying completely outside of her awareness.
Which is... pretty much what I said a few posts ago.

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For the "Kyon menaces Yuki" scene, how about we use the shoujo manga template of Quiet-Jerk-With-Heart-of-Gold exploding temper type scene. Kyonko bugs Yuuki too much, he pins her to the wall in retaliation, but instantly apologises ("because his temper scares himself" shoujo manga hero style), then retreats back to his seat for quiet reading.
This I like. We do this, yes?
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Old 2009-03-26, 07:21   Link #14236
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For the "Kyon menaces Yuki" scene, how about we use the shoujo manga template of Quiet-Jerk-With-Heart-of-Gold exploding temper type scene. Kyonko bugs Yuuki too much, he pins her to the wall in retaliation, but instantly apologises ("because his temper scares himself" shoujo manga hero style), then retreats back to his seat for quiet reading.
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This I like. We do this, yes?
No objections from me.
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Old 2009-03-26, 16:27   Link #14237
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Hm. I go away for a couple of day's and thread speeds up. Unfortunately I only skimmed what was posted so I have no comments right now.
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Old 2009-03-26, 16:29   Link #14238
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Yay for hiatuses.
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Old 2009-03-26, 17:14   Link #14239
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For the "Kyon menaces Yuki" scene, how about we use the shoujo manga template of Quiet-Jerk-With-Heart-of-Gold exploding temper type scene. Kyonko bugs Yuuki too much, he pins her to the wall in retaliation, but instantly apologises ("because his temper scares himself" shoujo manga hero style), then retreats back to his seat for quiet reading.
Win. Doing it.
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Old 2009-03-26, 17:16   Link #14240
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Win. Doing it.
It seems this project has an odd fascination with Kyonko being shoved around by guys that completely tower over her...
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