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Old 2009-08-26, 02:30   Link #19021
DJ_RockmanX
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Let's just accept the shoujo argument and move on guys.
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Old 2009-08-26, 02:32   Link #19022
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
So is Kyon to Itsuki. Yet, he still calls him 'Koizumi'.
Guys in Japan do not do this. It's considered creepy.

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Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX View Post
Let's just accept the shoujo argument and move on guys.
Thank you, boss.
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Old 2009-08-26, 02:32   Link #19023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX View Post
Let's just accept the shoujo argument and move on guys.
But I also gave a shoujo argument.

PP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Guys in Japan do not do this. It's considered creepy.
I don't have many Hight scholl manga, but Ichigo calls his frieds (exept Ishida) by the first name and all guys in Ouran have a first name basis, I believe

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-08-26 at 02:49.
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Old 2009-08-26, 02:40   Link #19024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyonko calls Itsuko "Itsuko" because they're close friends, as loath as Kyonko is to admit it.

She's probably closer to Itsuko than anyone else in the brigade.

Now shut up.
And then we loop back to the fact that she never calls Taniguchi or Kunikida by their first names. More importantly, she can't call them by their first names, since they don't exist.

Close friends? But I thought one of the main plot points was that no one really likes each other yet, just after Endless Eights. Everyone is mostly strangers still.

I never questioned any of this way back in the day because I never thought of it, but K&T thing was never brought up in relation to it...
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:01   Link #19025
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
all guys in Ouran have a first name basis, I believe
Exactly. Creepy.

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Originally Posted by CanadaAotS View Post
Everyone is mostly strangers still.
Not those two, however. Much like in the original canon, they're easily the closest to each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaAotS View Post
I never questioned any of this way back in the day because I never thought of it, but K&T thing was never brought up in relation to it...
Has Kyonko ever really done anything to make you think she's really friends with either of them?

Anyway, please, we need to stop and just accept this. We do not need to nitpick over every fucking little thing. Please.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:10   Link #19026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Exactly. Creepy.
Oh, good point. This don't explain Ichigo, though. He call his male friends by their given name (exept Ishida) and they do the same for him (exept Ishida).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not those two, however. Much like in the original canon, they're easily the closest to each other.
True. However, I really wouldn't call the 'close'. She should really be closer to Haruki then to anyone else. And this should be expressed by she only calling him by his given name, like their canon conter part.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Anyway, please, we need to stop and just accept this. We do not need to nitpick over every fucking little thing. Please.
Why? Discussing every thing is what make this project better and better. The original arguments aparently were only:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
For Itsuko my vote would be just that. Itsuko. It's informal, and can suggest both closeness as well as distance (like Kyon simply calling Haruhi, Haruhi long before any visible romance starts).
I don't think it is convincing at all. As you were saying, it suggest closeness and only that. I think is that the point of Kyon calling Haruhi 'Haruhi'. Showed how he thought her as a friend even if he complaims a lot.

PP:
A way to suggest distance would be 'Itsuko-san'. But then, why not change to 'Koizumi'?

Also, I think you could say Kyon show closeness to Itsuki by not adding a '-san' to his surname.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:18   Link #19027
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Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it.

Spoiler for The Assault of Itsuko Koizumi:
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:19   Link #19028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
So is Kyon to Itsuki. Yet, he still calls him 'Koizumi'.
Two points...

1) Generally speaking, male Japanese characters tend to be referred to by their family name more often than female Japanese characters are. This especially comes through with brother/sister pairs - for example, in Ranma 1/2, there's a brother/sister pair of Tatewaki Kuno and Kodachi Kuno. Tatewaki Kuno is almost always called simply "Kuno"; Kodachi Kuno is almost always called by her given name of "Kodachi". Also, I don't think that I've ever seen one female Japanese character address another female Japanese character by their family name; especially when they are friends. Just look at the K-On girls; they all address each other by given names (or nick names).

So, here's a perfectly good reason for Kyon to call Itsuki Koizumi by his family name, but for Kyonko to call Itsuko Koizumi by her given name.


2) It simply makes it easier to keep things straight, dude, by using the altered portions of the gender-bended characters names. If the gender-bended characters were all called "Koizumi", "Asahina", "Nagato", "Suzumiya", and "Kyon"... well, that could really trip up a writer and make the writer forget that it's not the regular gender characters that are being wrote.

Having at least two or three of them go by the altered name - "Itsuko", "Mitsuruu", "Yuuki", "Haruki" and "Kyonko" - makes it easier for the writer to keep their genders straight.


So, here's one good "in-canon" reason, and one good "for the writer's" reason for why it's done this way, I think.


Heatth - As for Ichigo... Ichigo is very close (in a platonic way) to Chad. Plus, IIRC, Chad isn't Japanese (at least not pure-blooded Japanese), so Ichigo may be showing respect to Chad's culture by calling him by his first name. Also, one could say that Ichigo is about as close to Ishida as Kyon is to Koizumi - they're friends, yes, but there's some tension there between them due to circumstances. So, if it makes sense for Ichigo to call Ishida by his family name, then it also makes sense for Kyon to call Koizumi by his family name. Finally, I'm glad you raised Ichigo. As far as I know, Ichigo calls all female Japanese characters by their first name. All of them, regardless of how close he is to that character. IIRC, anyway. That says a lot when you consider how he calls Ishida by his family name, don't you think?


Anyway, Heatth, I'm probably not the best one to talk after the height debate, but... yeah, Kaisos is right, you're being too nitpicky. Some of this small stuff, that doesn't really mean much at all, you should let slide. I was with you on the height debate for thematic reasons, but this name debate is a bit silly, imo. It doesn't make a big difference which name (given, family, or nickname) the characters call each other.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:21   Link #19029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't think that I've ever seen one female Japanese character address another female Japanese character by their family name - especially when they are friends.
Mikuru calls Tsuruya "Tsuruya-san," despite the fact that they're established as being fairly close friends.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:28   Link #19030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Two points...

1) Generally speaking, male Japanese characters tend to be referred to by their family name more often than female Japanese characters are. This especially comes through with brother/sister pairs - for example, in Ranma 1/2, there's a brother/sister pair of Tatewaki Kuno and Kodachi Kuno. Tatewaki Kuno is almost always called simply "Kuno"; Kodachi Kuno is almost always called by her given name of "Kodachi". Also, I don't think that I've ever seen one female Japanese character address another female Japanese character by their family name - especially when they are friends. Just look at the K-On girls; they all address each other by first names.

So, here's a perfectly good reason for Kyon to call Itsuki Koizumi by his family name, but for Kyonko to call Itsuko Koizumi by her given name.
Except Itsuko is not Itsuki's sister? And the K-ON girls are more friendly then Kyonko. There is still the problem of her calling Kunikida by her family name. Also, Haruhi is female have two female friends, Tsuruya and Sakanaka, and still call the by their family names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
2) It simply makes it easier to keep things straight, dude, by using the altered portions of the gender-bended characters names. If the gender-bended characters were all called "Koizumi", "Asahina", "Nagato", "Suzumiya", and "Kyon"... well, that could really trip up a writer and make the writer forget that it's not the regular gender characters that are being wrote.

Having at least two or three of them go by the altered name - "Itsuko", "Mitsuruu", "Yuuki", "Haruki" and "Kyonko" - makes it easier for the writer to keep their genders straight.


So, here's one good "in-canon" reason, and one good "for the writer's" reason for why it's done this way, I think.
That is actually a good point. Though, I would say it would work better for the VN having both Kyons calling their friend in a similar manner. We can see then, so it will no be confusing. Also, The writer can write with 'Itsuko' and have the editor change if he work better in that way. (sorry, Jintor, for suggesting give you more work )

I can change the already edited scenes directly on the script, btw.

PP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Mikuru calls Tsuruya "Tsuruya-san," despite the fact that they're established as being fairly close friends.
That too. Thanks.

Also, I will read you fanfic latter, sorry. Kinda sleepy and 'busy' with that discussion.

PPP:
Some more exemples, in Negima, some girls are called by their surname by some other girls. The unfriendly Chisame is a good exemple. A better one is Asakura, who is never caled "Kazumi" even being friendly to every one.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:37   Link #19031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it.

Spoiler for The Assault of Itsuko Koizumi:
That was great! I really enjoyed reading it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Mikuru calls Tsuruya "Tsuruya-san," despite the fact that they're established as being fairly close friends.

*Sigh*


That's only because this anime/novel has the annoying habit of really short-changing characters on names. Tsuruya is known by Tsuruya because that's the only name we know for her.

Outside of Haruhi, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one female Japanese character call another female Japanese character by their family name.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:39   Link #19032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
*Sigh*

That's only because this anime/novel has the annoying habit of really short-changing characters on names. Tsuruya is known by Tsuruya because that's the only name we know for her.

Outside of Haruhi, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one female Japanese character call another female Japanese character by their family name.
I edited my post while you were posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Some more exemples, in Negima, some girls are called by their surname by some other girls. The unfriendly Chisame is a good exemple. A better one is Asakura, who is never caled "Kazumi" even being friendly to every one.
PP:
There is also Tohru, from Fruits Basket, who calls pretty much every one by their last name, even her best friends. However, she calls these friends by a nickname based on the surname, actually, so might no really count.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:44   Link #19033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
Some more exemples, in Negima, some girls are called by their surname by some other girls. The unfriendly Chisame is a good exemple. A better one is Asakura, who is never caled "Kazumi" even being friendly to every one.
Ok, fine, there are exceptions to the rule; I wasn't aware of these before because I'm not much into Negima at all. But the fact is, Japanese girls who are friends very much tend to call each others by their given names, while Japanese guys who are friends are, at best, much more over the board here.

It's not that strange, Heatth, for a male Kyon to call Itsuki by the name "Koizumi" but for a female Kyon to call Itsuko by her given name of "Itsuko".
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:49   Link #19034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ok, fine, there are exceptions to the rule; I wasn't aware of these before because I'm not much into Negima at all. But the fact is, Japanese girls who are friends very much tend to call each others by their given names, while Japanese guys who are friends are, at best, much more over the board here.
I really think male japanese do the same, however. Don't remember any manga where it is strange for a teen male call his male friends by the first name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not that strange, Heatth, for a male Kyon to call Itsuki by the name "Koizumi" but for a female Kyon to call Itsuko by her given name of "Itsuko".
I don't think it is that strange. Just kinda wrong. The only character Kyon calls by it name is Haruhi. Don't you really think it have some meaning?

PP:
Also, while her not calling T&K by their given name is because they don't have a given name (like Mikuru and Tsuruya), it don't change the awkward feeling of her calling the creepy girl by name but not her older friends. Or these older friends not having a first name basis with each other. Assuming that in Haruverse the standard is last name basis and it is only broken by few (mostly Haruhi/ki and Tsuruyas) make more sense.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:50   Link #19035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's only because this anime/novel has the annoying habit of really short-changing characters on names. Tsuruya is known by Tsuruya because that's the only name we know for her.
I'd point out that Haruhi and Yuki get the last name treatment from her as well, but I'm really not wanting to continue this discussion...
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:50   Link #19036
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It's because I think of "Koizumi" as default male and anything else is going to confuse the fuck out of me.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:52   Link #19037
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That works for me. Discussion finished.
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:54   Link #19038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I really think male japanese do the same, however. Don't remember any manga where it is strange for a teen male call his male friends by the first name.



I don't think it is that strange. Just kinda wrong. The only character Kyon calls by it name is Haruhi. Don't you really think it have some meaning?
Honestly? No, I don't. I think Kyon simply prefers the name "Nagato" to the name "Yuki", and prefers the name "Asahina" to the name "Mikuru". And, for much of the cast, family names are the only options.
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Old 2009-08-26, 04:00   Link #19039
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly? No, I don't. I think Kyon simply prefers the name "Nagato" to the name "Yuki", and prefers the name "Asahina" to the name "Mikuru". And, for much of the cast, family names are the only options.
Really? This really don't make sense for me. Mikuru even have asked him to call her by her first name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
It's because I think of "Koizumi" as default male and anything else is going to confuse the fuck out of me.
This is the best argument so far, yeah.

Obviously, both 'Asahina' and 'Asakura feels like a defaut female for me. Yet, I really don't confuse then while I am reading.
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Old 2009-08-26, 04:36   Link #19040
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Really? This really don't make sense for me. Mikuru even have asked him to call her by her first name.
Let me rephrase - I hope that there's no special meaning to Kyon calling Haruhi by her given name but everybody else by their family name, because otherwise this is an awfully lame way to help prop up a pairing, imo.

Anyway, if you need an in-canon reason for why "Itsuko" is used by Kyonko, we can just roll with Kogetsu's cute scene explaining the history behind it.
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