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Old 2009-08-26, 06:39   Link #19041
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Get off!

"We're both girls, right?" Koizumi calmly stated, while continuing to press her considerable (and apparently quite natural) chest against my back . "There is absolutely nothing wrong with us being this close."
Fixed it for ya
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Old 2009-08-26, 06:42   Link #19042
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I was trying to avoid playing up the yuri aspects of the scene.
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Old 2009-08-26, 07:05   Link #19043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
I was trying to avoid playing up the yuri aspects of the scene.
I think everyone is gonna assume something yuri is going on with something like that


Besides, considering how well endowed Itsuko is, I think this kind of observation is impossible not to make.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2009-08-26 at 07:26.
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Old 2009-08-26, 08:38   Link #19044
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I was thinking about something.

Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?

Convince me otherwise.

/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?

Last edited by Jintor; 2009-08-26 at 10:06.
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Old 2009-08-26, 09:15   Link #19045
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While the name thing could be important, the reason we're calling Itsuko "Itsuko" is because it seems to make more sense to genderbend a given name than to genderbend a family/surname.
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Old 2009-08-26, 09:51   Link #19046
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For all this naming business, you can blame it all on having an unreliable narrator.

Like everything else in the universe...it is Kyon's fault.
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Old 2009-08-26, 10:31   Link #19047
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I think we're forgetting the fact that the way you refer to people, no matter what the social rules surrounding you are, comes down to personal preference. Each character is going to have their own reasons for referring to people the way they do, outside of the "norm" of society.

Also, we're getting into personal character interpretation, which is a bit of a minefield. For example, I sort of view Kyon and Koizumi as having a vaguely Manzai interaction style, whereas I've never gotten that vibe from Kyonko and Itsuko. Others seem to feel that Kyon genuinely dislikes Koizumi (which carries over into the Kyonko/Itsuko relationship), which is a feeling I've never shared. In this situation, Kaisos's interpretation should probably rule, by the simple fact that he is the writer and these are his characters.

EDIT: Manzai is a two person comedy routine that's well known in Japan that consists of a boke (funny man) and a tsukkomi (straight man). Generally, the boke plays dumb about something, which angers the tsukkomi and leads to a lot of puns delivered at high speed, and some occasionally Stooge-ish action. Note that I'm not saying this is genuine reflective of their characters; instead, I think that the more comedic aspects of their interactions are similar to this. (For a more opaque version, think of Domeki and Watanuki from Holic).
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Old 2009-08-26, 10:47   Link #19048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it.

Spoiler for The Assault of Itsuko Koizumi:
Well, this is kinda totally overlly gay. Anyway, we would still have to change all the first uses of 'Itsuko' to 'Koizumi' and add a line showing Kyonko disguss on the first times she call Itsuko like that. I also would say this only fit after Melancholly, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Let me rephrase - I hope that there's no special meaning to Kyon calling Haruhi by her given name but everybody else by their family name, because otherwise this is an awfully lame way to help prop up a pairing, imo.
Oh, well. The meaning I think is less romantic, actually. Is more like she being the first, and maybe only, true friend he have. Someone in who he can trust (the trust in Yuki is kinda different). Haruhi trust him back too, which is kinda sad, seeing how he lies a lot ot her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Anyway, if you need an in-canon reason for why "Itsuko" is used by Kyonko, we can just roll with Kogetsu's cute scene explaining the history behind it.
Kogetsu story is not what I would call cute

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
I was thinking about something.

Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?

Convince me otherwise.

/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?
I think Kyon is a kinda tsundere yeah. I don't know if 'tsu' is the better word (it mean angry, agressive, right?), be he do deny (out loud) he cares about Haruhi to everyone, but trust her enterly anyway (also, not exactly a 'deredere' moment). Yeah, he is kinda tsundere, then, a femele him is more tsundereish.

PP:
To scify, I don't think Kyon genuinely dislikes Itsuki. However, he feel unconfortable when near him. My point, however, is both Kyons call everyone by the family name, so is strange Itsuko be diffeent. I work for the Suzumiyas, because their relationship with Kyon is different.

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-08-26 at 11:46.
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Old 2009-08-26, 11:37   Link #19049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
"Itsuko is fine. Please. Say my name."
This made me think of another kind of befriending was going on.
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Old 2009-08-26, 12:09   Link #19050
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First off, does everyone have some understanding of Japanese norms on addressing in conversations? The common form is surname+honorific. Casual address omits the honorific. Closer relationships would use first names, and the use of honorifics here depends on the level of respect the speaker intends to show. E.g. In Clannad, Sunohara and Okazaki call each other this way, despite being as close to bromance as they get.

For Kyonko and Itsuko; girls are likely to address each other by first name, indicating a close peer relationship even though they may not particularly like each other. Kyonko might be retaliating to any girl calling her Kyon by using their surnames. Itsuko rarely says Kyon. On the other hand, it might be good to be consistant about Kyonko's hatred for other women.

Note that what obeservations I have on the Japanese name addressing customs are mostly from dating sims. Trust at your own peril.
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Old 2009-08-26, 12:14   Link #19051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otai View Post
For Kyonko and Itsuko; girls are likely to address each other by first name, indicating a close peer relationship even though they may not particularly like each other. Kyonko might be retaliating to any girl calling her Kyon by using their surnames. Itsuko rarely says Kyon. On the other hand, it might be good to be consistant about Kyonko's hatred for other women.
I think this is one of the main problem. For consistance sake, having her only hcalling Itsuko by the name is strange. At last in the first novel they weren't that close (no more then, say, Kunikida and Taniguchi). Also, you can say she is not really close to T&K, but she did hand up with then for one moth before befriend Haruki. And even goes to school with Taniguchi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otai View Post
Note that what obeservations I have on the Japanese name addressing customs are mostly from dating sims. Trust at your own peril.
Mine is not better, only from random hight schol mangas

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-08-26 at 12:40.
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Old 2009-08-26, 12:31   Link #19052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it.

Spoiler for The Assault of Itsuko Koizumi:
Brilliant. :-) You deserve points for this. I just wish I could give them to you right now.
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Old 2009-08-26, 12:43   Link #19053
otai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I think this is one of the main problem. For consistance sake, having her only hcalling Itsuko by the name is strange. At last in the first novel they weren't that close (no more then, say, Kunikida and Taniguchi). Also, you can say she is not really close to T&K, but she did hand up with then for one moth before befriend Haruki. And even goes to school with Taniguchi.
Consistancy aside; we seem to be playing with the idea that guys and girls socialize differently; girls being less self-loathing than guys in intimacy. So under the right conditions, Kyonko might refer to Itsuko by first name, whereas there's no chance of Kyon doing so with Itsuki. As to the possible conditions, well, I stand by my retaliation theory.

Still, we could save a lot of effort by having consistant behaviour between Kyon and Kyonko.
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Old 2009-08-26, 12:55   Link #19054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otai View Post
Still, we could save a lot of effort by having consistant behaviour between Kyon and Kyonko.
Yeah, why so much rationalization to it? The thing about playing with how girls are more open to friends don't work because of T&K and Sasaki. The feeling is not 'Kyonko is more open to her friends then Kyon' but 'Kyonko is more open to Itsuko then Kyon is to Itsuki'. This seen like a excuse to more yuri feeling.

PP:
Not saying it is an excuse to more yuri (Kaisos seens to not like how Itsuko is seen by most fans). But feel like that.
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Old 2009-08-26, 14:27   Link #19055
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Heatth, please. We could argue about this forever. Just let it go, for the fucking love of god, just let it go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?
She has tsundere traits, but that's not the point of her character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?
Same as above. He has certain tsundere traits, but isn't a male tsundere.

All of Tanigawa's characters have that emotional deniability thing going on. He said it makes for more interesting characters.
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Old 2009-08-26, 15:11   Link #19056
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Heatth, please. We could argue about this forever. Just let it go, for the fucking love of god, just let it go.
We can argue anything forever. Yet, we have reached many consensus the last past discussions. Also, is not like I am not only one saying it. Now I am curious, why you don't want to discuss it?

As I said, verything said here seen more like a rationalization then really arguments.

You (people how wants to keep like that) said "Girl are more open to her friends"
I said "Don't work, because she only display that behaviout toward Itsuko"

You said "She is close to Itsuko"
I said "So is Kyon, but he never showed it. Also, Kyonko wouldn't want show closeness to the girl who creeps her"

You said "Helps to differentiate from male Koizumi"
I said "This make sense, actually. This don't prevent Mitsuru and Yuuki being called 'Asahina' and 'Nagato' though."


Most of this arguments sound to me more like "I want her being called 'Itsuko' and I am making arguments on spot to justify it.". (not saying it is, but really sound like that to me.)

Then I should ask: Why? Why her being called 'Itsuko' is so inportant?

For me, the answer is: I think Kyon only call Haruhi as a sig of her being closer to him then anyone else (including Itsuki, btw). He likes her (not necesserly romanticly) and trust her more then the others and that should be the same to Kyonko and Haruki. Also, it is a bit awkward she calling Itsuko by her first name but not her other friends.

PP:
Oh, yeah I agree with you, Kaisos, about the tsundere thing. I can't really see the difference you made about 'being a tsundere' and 'having tsundere traits'. If 'being' one means only being a tsundere, or having it as a good word to describe Kyon/ko wholle personality, then I agree they are not a tsundere. The same would go for Haruhi, however.
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Old 2009-08-26, 15:14   Link #19057
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Could go with the "befriending" theory. Though Kyonko might know about Nanoha and Fate to be able to give a snarky remark or reference much like Kyon has been giving Gundam, Macross, and Eva references.
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Old 2009-08-26, 15:17   Link #19058
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We're not changing how we've referred to Itsuko from the beginning. That's final, so please, please stop bringing up the issue.

WE DO NOT NEED TO JUSTIFY EVERYTHING WE DO.

That is all. Now please, let's stop discussing this.
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Old 2009-08-26, 15:27   Link #19059
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Basically that means you don't want to go back and try to hunt down every instance of the work "Itsuko" spoken by Kyonko and adjust it because it would take a month at least to hunt them all down in context and all. Plus you don't want to have to find a place to put a justification into a story because then you'd have to find were or if there was a switching in how Itsuko is refered to by Kyonko.

Basically.
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Old 2009-08-26, 15:35   Link #19060
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And I wouldn't do it even if I had the energy to do so.

And you want justifications, Heatth?

Honestly, if I knew T&K's first names? I'd have her refer to them as such.

But we don't so we're stuck like this. Maybe Kyonko simply doesn't consider them friends, while she considers Itsuko one. You'll note Itsuko is generally less creepy than Itsuki is.

So. I ask you, why shouldn't she call Itsuko by her first name? They're close, Itsuko is the only girl in the brigade, she's the only one Kyonko can really talk to about her problems... and she, like I said, unlike her male counterpart, considers Itsuko an actual friend.


For that matter, about Haruki being 'special' to her... at this point, before the end of Sighs, he really isn't. In fact, I'd say that she hates him.

No sane girl would be more than physically attracted to him at this point. There is some emotional attachment, but honestly, he makes her life hell.

Only after the end of Sighs, and Live Alive, after he starts to grow up, does Kyonko start becoming truly attracted to him. Though she'll never admit it.

That good enough for you?
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