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Old 2009-08-27, 11:50   Link #19121
Sute443
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I'm not sure what evidence Itsuko would be using to come up with the conclusion that the Seitenkan universe was created by Haruhi. It feels off to not have a theory involving Haruhi's universe having been created by Haruki, so I'll make a little write-up of that.

Spoiler for Haruki-based theory:


It occurred to me while writing that it may be odd for Itsuko to refer to Haruki by his given name (since I think she usually uses his family name), but I think it's justified here because they're discussing two different Suzumiyas. Also, I wrote it on the assumption that Itsuko was the first to find Kyonko and the two were alone. That could of course be changed.
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Old 2009-08-27, 11:55   Link #19122
Kogetsu Shirogane
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Well, the thing is, they're in Haruhi's world, not Haruki's. I'd say that fact lends more to the possibility that Haruhi's the one that did the alternate universe creating.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:01   Link #19123
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
...it is probable that this universe's version of Haruki - let's call her "Haruna" for short...
Made me think of Haruna "Paru" Saotome. Well, Haruhi's probably just as pervy, so it might not be that surprising...
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:03   Link #19124
Sute443
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Well, the thing is, they're in Haruhi's world, not Haruki's. I'd say that fact lends more to the possibility that Haruhi's the one that did the alternate universe creating.
Maybe, maybe not. If Haruki messed up and created Haruhi as someone who could genuinely challenge him and Haruhi has been stealing his power, that could explain the Kyonko being shifted over to Haruhi's world. if you made enough stuff up.

But mostly, I wrote that conversation because I find it implausible that they would so readily consider that their world is a fake without trying to find a way to say that Haruhi's world is the fake. Learning your world is a fake would probably be pretty traumatizing, so I imagine they'd be trying to figure out every way that might not be the case.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:05   Link #19125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I'm not sure what evidence Itsuko would be using to come up with the conclusion that the Seitenkan universe was created by Haruhi. It feels off to not have a theory involving Haruhi's universe having been created by Haruki, so I'll make a little write-up of that.

Spoiler for Haruki-based theory:


It occurred to me while writing that it may be odd for Itsuko to refer to Haruki by his given name (since I think she usually uses his family name), but I think it's justified here because they're discussing two different Suzumiyas. Also, I wrote it on the assumption that Itsuko was the first to find Kyonko and the two were alone. That could of course be changed.
The thing is Itsuko already went for 'the female Haruki might have created the world' in the other scene. This is probably to be a foil to Mitsuru, who don't even want to think aout he being creation of onther dimensional being. The problem is Itsuko is who make the theorys, so people tends to believe in anything she says.

PP:
Nice writing, btw (sorry for ot comenting this first ). I also like the idea of they inventing names for the other group.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:14   Link #19126
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Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
The thing is Itsuko already went for 'the female Haruki might have created the world' in the other scene. This is probably to be a foil to Mitsuru, who don't even want to think aout he being creation of onther dimensional being. The problem is Itsuko is who make the theorys, so people tends to believe in anything she says.
I know, this scene referenced that scene. There's no reason that Itsuko couldn't propose two competing theories, especially when one is as distasteful as being the creation of someone in a different universe. They currently have to way to confirm which, if any, theory is correct, so Itsuko can propose as many theories as she wants.

Glad you enjoyed the name part. That was mostly done for amusement, but it could also be interpreted as a sign of how the Koizumi's aren't always rights. Sometimes the stuff they say could just be placeholders until they can come up with a real theory/accurate information.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:18   Link #19127
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I'm sad that my theory seems to have been completely forgotten ...

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Originally Posted by Aebliss View Post
Um. How about 'the current situation we find ourselves in is due to Suzumiya-san's sudden interest in the different thought processes of man and woman. He is now curious how his life would be different if he were a woman, so a female version of him has come to exist by virtue of his power. Only, because this is truly a female version of Suzumiya-san, she has access to the same power he does, and has created a world around herself which is a reflection of Suzumiya-san's. But since ultimately the power springs from our Suzumiya-san, this is an unbalanced creation, with the divine power like the rope in a game of tug-of-war. As the power flows, so too are people drawn along with it, possibly in an effort to achieve reality in this new world. Or possibly Suzumiya-san's subconscious is actively sending us here, relying on us to solve this imbalance. The Organization exists, after all, to safeguard Suzumiya-san's state of mind and the real world from which we came.'

Something like that? Li'l sleepy. ^^;
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:20   Link #19128
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Originally Posted by Aebliss View Post
I'm sad that my theory seems to have been completely forgotten ...
I thought of raising that myself, but it just struck me as a very strange thing for the hot-blooded manly man Haruki to think about.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:25   Link #19129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I know, this scene referenced that scene. There's no reason that Itsuko couldn't propose two competing theories, especially when one is as distasteful as being the creation of someone in a different universe. They currently have to way to confirm which, if any, theory is correct, so Itsuko can propose as many theories as she wants.
I think you are right, actually. But I believe Kaisos was going for Itsuko proposing the Haruhi is god theory. But, yeah, I guess she could propse 2 or more theorys.

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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
Glad you enjoyed the name part. That was mostly done for amusement, but it could also be interpreted as a sign of how the Koizumi's aren't always rights. Sometimes the stuff they say could just be placeholders until they can come up with a real theory/accurate information.
I find that idea very amuzing. How about the others? Yuuko? Kyonhiko? Ichihiro?
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:32   Link #19130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aebliss View Post
I'm sad that my theory seems to have been completely forgotten ...
I was actually thinking about including it in what I wrote, but I wasn't sure if Kyonko would let Itsuko go on at such length. And I have a feeling Mitsuuru would try to interject if she kept spouting theories, and I know I have no ability to write lines for him.

Edit: Also, I really wanted to have Itsuko say "My, my... the Trousers of Time?" but thought it would be out of character for her, since it's Kyon who does the random culture references.
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Last edited by scify; 2009-08-27 at 14:09.
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:03   Link #19131
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How about the theory of balance of power?

Itsuko: 'Because in universe A, there is a Suzumiya Haruki with infinite power, in universe B, as a counterbalance, there must exist a Suzumiya Haruhi with infinite power, to keep the various alternate dimensions in balance. However, since the infinite is indivisible, the power is fluctuating, oscillating between the two, creating a current between the dimensions as it shifts from one Suzumiya to the other while attempting to achieve an impossible balance: by definition of their nature, both Suzumiyas should have infinite power. By its own definition, the infinite power can not be wielded by two entities simultaneously, or it would be divided and thus less than infinite. As the power flows to and fro, people are dragged along with its current. The fact that we are being drawn into this world, rather than people being drawn to ours seems to indicate that the power is starting to shift most strongly to the female Suzumiya ...'

Mitsuuru: 'But if this power is infinite, isn't it greater than both Suzumiyas? Wouldn't it just encompass them? Suzumiya-san is very energetic, but he isn't infinite. Even he gets tired and hungry after a while. Therefore, even if the Suzumiyas have some kind of 'power', it either encompasses them and these dimensional shifts are due to something different, or their power is not infinite.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I thought of raising that myself, but it just struck me as a very strange thing for the hot-blooded manly man Haruki to think about.
The guy is strange. But more than that, it's not an unusual curiosity.
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:13   Link #19132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aebliss View Post
How about the theory of balance of power?

Itsuko: 'Because in universe A, there is a Suzumiya Haruki with infinite power, in universe B, as a counterbalance, there must exist a Suzumiya Haruhi with infinite power, to keep the various alternate dimensions in balance. However, since the infinite is indivisible, the power is fluctuating, oscillating between the two, creating a current between the dimensions as it shifts from one Suzumiya to the other while attempting to achieve an impossible balance: by definition of their nature, both Suzumiyas should have infinite power. By its own definition, the infinite power can not be wielded by two entities simultaneously, or it would be divided and thus less than infinite. As the power flows to and fro, people are dragged along with its current. The fact that we are being drawn into this world, rather than people being drawn to ours seems to indicate that the power is starting to shift most strongly to the female Suzumiya ...'

Mitsuuru: 'But if this power is infinite, isn't it greater than both Suzumiyas? Wouldn't it just encompass them? Suzumiya-san is very energetic, but he isn't infinite. Even he gets tired and hungry after a while. Therefore, even if the Suzumiyas have some kind of 'power', it either encompasses them and these dimensional shifts are due to something different, or their power is not infinite.'



The guy is strange. But more than that, it's not an unusual curiosity.
Certainly, that also serves as a good argument. However, Mitsuuru sounds rather off in your writing.
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:22   Link #19133
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Kaisos need to be for approval. Really. More theories are good, but don't discuss them into GREAT DETAIL here.
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:24   Link #19134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HikariNiwa View Post
Certainly, that also serves as a good argument. However, Mitsuuru sounds rather off in your writing.
He needs to hesitate and to stumble on words more.

Anyway, your theory is good Aebliss.

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Originally Posted by besieger View Post
Kaisos need to be for approval. Really. More theories are good, but don't discuss them into GREAT DETAIL here.
I believe both him and Danchou are reading everything and discussing which theorys fit better. Also, Kaisos have read the first time you posted yours and asked for clarification.
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:30   Link #19135
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Originally Posted by HikariNiwa View Post
Certainly, that also serves as a good argument. However, Mitsuuru sounds rather off in your writing.
Two possible reasons:
1) I'm a bit tired. (Most likely reason.)
2) Haruki's not around, presumably nothing else bad is happening at that moment, and Mitsuuru finally sees an opportunity to offer logical rebuttal to all the insanity going on around him. Either that or he's snapped under the strain and is too exhausted to be afraid.

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He needs to hesitate and to stumble on words more.

Anyway, your theory is good Aebliss.
Cheers. ^^
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:53   Link #19136
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I agree with Heatth. It's a good theory, but the dialogue would fit into character more if Mitsuuru would stammer more. It might also work if Kyonko brought up the counterargument rather than Mitsuuru. Maybe.
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:04   Link #19137
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I clarified somewhat in MSN. Kaisos can PM me if he wants.
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:31   Link #19138
Sute443
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That piece by Aebliss is really well written. I like the explanation of the current of power flowing towards Haruhi being what dragged them along (I was trying to go for that myself, but Aebliss put it much better). Technically speaking, Mitsuuru is kinda right. Sort of. Partially. Infinities just do not work the way Itsuko is proposing.

You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.

Of course, this could be explained as Itsuko falling victim to a No Limits Fallacy (taking an observed phenomenon and extrapolating its power infinitely). The power wielded by the Suzumiyas may appear limitless from our perspective but actually be finite. Then the argument about balance could work. Nice to see Mitsuuru pointing out a valid flaw in an idea.

Or, it could be that Haruhi has somehow managed to get more "parts" of the infinite power than Haruki has, and that THAT is the cause of the imbalance. Maybe, for example, the ability to maintain a stable world infinitely is part of the powers, but a part that only one of them can use at a time.
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:54   Link #19139
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.
And thus, that makes the population of the universe... zero.

I wonder how many Hitchhiker's references can be believably used here...

...and "Treknobabble!" (Heisenberg Compensator)
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:56   Link #19140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
That piece by Aebliss is really well written. I like the explanation of the current of power flowing towards Haruhi being what dragged them along (I was trying to go for that myself, but Aebliss put it much better). Technically speaking, Mitsuuru is kinda right. Sort of. Partially. Infinities just do not work the way Itsuko is proposing.

You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.

Of course, this could be explained as Itsuko falling victim to a No Limits Fallacy (taking an observed phenomenon and extrapolating its power infinitely). The power wielded by the Suzumiyas may appear limitless from our perspective but actually be finite. Then the argument about balance could work. Nice to see Mitsuuru pointing out a valid flaw in an idea.

Or, it could be that Haruhi has somehow managed to get more "parts" of the infinite power than Haruki has, and that THAT is the cause of the imbalance. Maybe, for example, the ability to maintain a stable world infinitely is part of the powers, but a part that only one of them can use at a time.
What it comes down to however, is whether or not the readers will understand. I for one, hopefully believe they are capable. Otherwise our arguments and theories become moot.
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