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Old 2009-07-15, 04:58   Link #101
Bri
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The Macross 7 issue kind of proves my point. Hardcore, or narrow minded depending on pov, fans hating an anime because it does not contain the elements they associate with the genre. Same goes for AU versus UC Gundam.

If early Real Robots are Super Robots with a military and mecha anime since Gunbuster has been a blend, then there is not much of a division left. Every element used to distinguish between Super and Real can be found in both.

As said by Terrestial Dream the only way to distinguish is to judge on a case by case basis. There are no clear cut definitions to mark the genres, hot blooded characters are common in both, same goes for "chosen one" pilots. At best we are dealing with a sliding scale, that tips on to one side if enough elements of either Real or Super are present. In reality most mecha shows are a mix of both.
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Old 2009-07-15, 08:29   Link #102
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From what you said, you think that the distinction between Super and Real is an excuse for bashing, its only such a case if you view it that way. Super and Real Robots are sub genre categories for the mecha genre. Genres exist in all forms of media, it is to categorise media, but its supposed to have no fixed boundaries.

Not just Terrestrial Dream, I've been saying that whether the series is Super or Real, is decided by factors and elements that make up the story. Meaning that you have to judge the story itself and find how the factors balance out. If there are more Super Robot elements than Real, the scale tips towards Super, then its a Super Robot, vice versa. Also some factors weigh more heavily than others and have a greater impact at deciding the genre.

Mecha that works in a military organisation, actually a neutral factor, not just in Real Robots, Super Robots have been fighting with/against entire Super Robot armies for a long time.

A story that tells of humans struggling in a global conflict and involves politics and terrorism, realistic reference, a moderate Real Robot element.

A story that tells of humans fighting against a alien race that time travelled from the future and originated from a parallel world, a Super Robot element.

Mecha that uses real world technologies and is limited by realistic physics to a believable extent, a heavy Real Robot element.

A mecha that needs to have a gattai of 5 units piloted by 5 pilots in the middle of every battle, it is also powered by an energy source that reacts to the pilots' will, heavy Super Robot element.

And so on.

Its just that recently, the scale is so balanced on some series, that they cannot be judged Super or Real, which people had to come up with the term Hybrid. It took Banpresto over a decade to finally recognise Hybrid Robots as a separate sub genre, because however vague the boundaries between Super and Reals were, the scales still tipped to either side for most mecha anime.

Take a look at music, Rock for example. Using the same instruments, sometimes even the same musicians, you can create Rock music that sounds different from each other. Even the a single piece of music when remixed can be put into different sub genres.
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Old 2009-07-15, 13:29   Link #103
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Personally, I would associate mechas with humanoid robots that can be controlled either by artificial intelligence or by a pilot.

There are supposedly two types of mechas but I would add a third type.

Real Robots: Those that excel in agility yet lacks armor as that it is supposed to be realistic but even so, real robots tend to take the form of a humanoid. (Examples: Gundam, Zaku)

Super Robots: These mechas excel in heavy armor, as well as powerful attacks as that they modeled after superheroes. Although, they also take the form of humanoids but many of the super robots are actually the combination of various smaller mechas. (Examples: Getta Robo, Great Mazinger)

Unknown Type: These mechas are by far the most realistic ones and thus, they do not fall into either the real robot or super robot categories. However, I cannot seem to think of any good examples as of now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
If by 'most', you're applying to the entire mecha genre and not just Real Robots, then you're wrong.
Correct. I actually meant the genre of real robots only as that I am not much of a fan of the super robots genre.

Quote:
In fact until Tomino created Gundam, there are not too many mecha animes that deals with politics, terrorism or war, because most of these mecha anime are indeed for kids.
Agree. Mecha animes were originally made for children audiences prior to the era of Gundam.
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Old 2009-07-15, 14:08   Link #104
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Well, differentiation by 'stats' is not an accurate method of deciding Supers or Reals.

Getter Robo is more agile than most other Real Robots out there, King Gainer can dance and do acrobatics. The martial arts based Super Robots, G Gundam, Shura Gods, Dynamic General series, all of them are more agile than Real Robots. Gainax Super Robots like the Buster Machines, Gurren Lagann series are more agile than any Real Robot.

Real Robot armour, I'm sure Phase Shift armour beats whatever scrap metal the Walker Machines use. Even E-Carbon used in 00 could beat lots of Super Robot armour. Real Robots of extremely high technological level often come with nanomachine armour that makes them indestructible, like Turn A and Turn X, practically indestructible and self repairs. Real Robots also make use of protective barriers and shields more than the Super Robots.

'Robots that are most realistic', it just falls into the Real Robot category.
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:56   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Well, differentiation by 'stats' is not an accurate method of deciding Supers or Reals.

Getter Robo is more agile than most other Real Robots out there, King Gainer can dance and do acrobatics. The martial arts based Super Robots, G Gundam, Shura Gods, Dynamic General series, all of them are more agile than Real Robots. Gainax Super Robots like the Buster Machines, Gurren Lagann series are more agile than any Real Robot.

Real Robot armour, I'm sure Phase Shift armour beats whatever scrap metal the Walker Machines use. Even E-Carbon used in 00 could beat lots of Super Robot armour. Real Robots of extremely high technological level often come with nanomachine armour that makes them indestructible, like Turn A and Turn X, practically indestructible and self repairs. Real Robots also make use of protective barriers and shields more than the Super Robots.

'Robots that are most realistic', it just falls into the Real Robot category.
Your knowledge of mecha specs and technology is really impressive.
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Old 2009-07-17, 03:08   Link #106
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I was never big on mecha; I tried watching Gundam Wing when I was younger but just didn't like it.

I saw Evangelion and enjoyed that but it wasn't until I watched Tenga Toppen Gurren Lagann that I thought Mecha could be great fun to watch. I had seen FMP! before that and I'm a huge FMP! fan but I never looked at the mecha of the story that closely until now.

Then just the other week I watched Macross Frontier and I've fallen in love with the VF-25. Such a cool concept.
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Old 2009-07-17, 05:47   Link #107
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Macross Frontier has been sheer genius in updating an older mecha franchise to a new audience.

Add in a crying game storyline for the main cast, a space war/conspiracy plot in the background, J-pop, and some awesome-sauce in the shape of valkyries. Instant succes.
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Old 2009-07-17, 05:56   Link #108
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These new mecha that managed to draw audience who didn't like mecha only did so because they look and sound great.

Its still very hard to get non mecha audience to watch older mecha especially when people usually think that the latest is the best.

From what I know, mecha didn't do well in the West because they prefer Transformers style robots instead of piloted mecha. And also the best mecha animes either didn't get licensed, or licensed and had bad publicity. On top of that Western voice actors didn't know how to do hotblooded voices only until recently.
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Old 2009-07-17, 07:30   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
From what I know, mecha didn't do well in the West because they prefer Transformers style robots instead of piloted mecha.
I'm not a big fan of mecha shows, although I did grow up with Macross/Robotech, Voltron, Space Battleship Yamato and the like. Even so, I'd take the Japanese aesthetic over American-style mecha any day.

I simply find Japanese mecha more streamlined, more gracefully designed (like Zone of the Ender's Jehuty, for example), or at least more organic looking than the usual clunky American mecha ala Battletech. I have no idea why Westerners tend to make their mecha look so horribly ugly or barbaric. Perhaps that's the way they imagine machines alien and threatening. The Japanese, on the other hand, appear to have a knack for incorporating technology into their daily lives, thus making their mecha look friendlier or even kawaii in the process.

Come to think of it, the differences in aesthetic styles extend beyond mecha and into character designs as well. Males in Western fantasy art tend to be big, burly, almost ape-like barbarians, compared to the typically androgynous men in Japanese manga and anime. I wonder what that says about our respective cultures, eh?
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:17   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
These new mecha that managed to draw audience who didn't like mecha only did so because they look and sound great.

Its still very hard to get non mecha audience to watch older mecha especially when people usually think that the latest is the best.

From what I know, mecha didn't do well in the West because they prefer Transformers style robots instead of piloted mecha. And also the best mecha animes either didn't get licensed, or licensed and had bad publicity. On top of that Western voice actors didn't know how to do hotblooded voices only until recently.
Not even that. I think it's a case of having appealing looks. And not even on the mecha, but the characters themselves!! Remember the mecha-flop that was Gundam SEED, but was still a commercial success? After all, Kira & Athrun were like some kind of boyband attracting the girls. And they had Lacus. I mean, the mecha was crap in GSEED!!
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:22   Link #111
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I think that mecha in certain animes is pretty cool

One of my fave mecha animes is Burst Angel
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:23   Link #112
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Yea, I mean the entire package, the entire anime itself, including animation and music. Some people are turned off by older mecha series' reused scenes.

But there are some mecha, Gaogaigar for example, you'd love to see reused scenes all the time just because its too awesome. Gaogaigar's Gattai scene, Final Fusion was voted the most amazing Gattai in all mecha. Gaogaigar's attacks are also awesome right from episode 1 to be reused all the way and be homaged by other anime.
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No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:24   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Yea, I mean the entire package, the entire anime itself, including animation and music. Some people are turned off by older mecha series' reused scenes.

But there are some mecha, Gaogaigar for example, you'd love to see reused scenes all the time just because its too awesome. Gaogaigar's Gattai scene, Final Fusion was voted the most amazing Gattai in all mecha. Gaogaigar's attacks are also awesome right from episode 1 to be reused all the way and be homaged by other anime.
But there's those which rely almost totally on the characters, like the last two of three Gundam series (SEED and GSD), with flop mecha...
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Old 2009-07-19, 12:55   Link #114
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
These new mecha that managed to draw audience who didn't like mecha only did so because they look and sound great.

Its still very hard to get non mecha audience to watch older mecha especially when people usually think that the latest is the best.

From what I know, mecha didn't do well in the West because they prefer Transformers style robots instead of piloted mecha. And also the best mecha animes either didn't get licensed, or licensed and had bad publicity. On top of that Western voice actors didn't know how to do hotblooded voices only until recently.
I think it's more of a generational thing instead of east versus west. Exposure to particular kinds of anime will create its own fanbase. I grew up in the eighties and most anime shown on televison at that time were mecha shows. In the nineties and early 2k, it was mostly tournament shonen. I guess that cultivated a different crowd.

It's just a matter of getting used to things. Old school mecha fans were complaining about the high school kids in Frontier and I'm sure the concept of a moe-blob in the form of Ranka Lee was more alien to them then the Varija. In contrast the standard crying game romance plot and the typical high school anime characters were key ingredients in making Frontier palatable for a non mecha audience.
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Old 2009-08-08, 15:17   Link #115
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Why does it seem that Super Robot shows have a lot more of depressing tone than their real robot counterparts?
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Old 2009-08-08, 21:45   Link #116
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Why does it seem that Super Robot shows have a lot more of depressing tone than their real robot counterparts?
I wouldn't generalize them like that, both have their fair shares of depressing and cheerful shows. For example Gurren Lagann, Gunbuster, and Yuusha series are not depressing (well maybe not Gunbuster but it isn't really depressing imo). Shows like Fafner, many of the UC Gundams, and Dunbine (never watched but from what I heard it sounds quite depressing) is depressing. To be honest from my experience SR tends to be more cheerful.
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Old 2009-08-09, 02:01   Link #117
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You guys are missing the thing that seperates the various mecha categories. Anthropomorphic personafication! Straight from Prachet's books of Diskworld.

Mecha are seperated into how identified they are with their pilots or ideals.

So, Super Robots are solid expansions of the ideals their pilots have. And since ideals are not material, they have no commitment to look real. Just awesome, cool, idealistic and the like.

Real Robots on the other hand are more about following technology and depicting the state of the society they were made in. It's more about the world around them than the pilot inside them. So, they are bound to look more "real" if they are supposed to excuse their place in a story not ideal-driven but event-driven.

Going even further, robots don't even need to look like humans.They are just made to look like that so the younger audience can understand them better. Robots don't have a fixed form and frankly, a hovering mechanical sphere has a hundred times more utility than and limb or head. The form is designed only to make the robot look cool or understood easier. Still, any aeroplane is in practice much easier to build and control than a piloted robot.

In a few words, the less humanoid a robot "behaves" the more objective and less subjective the theme of the series is.

The EVA in Evagelion, had enough God powers to excuse everything... And it was about the pilots in the long run.
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Old 2009-08-09, 02:29   Link #118
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I have no idea why Westerners tend to make their mecha look so horribly ugly or barbaric. Perhaps that's the way they imagine machines alien and threatening. The Japanese, on the other hand, appear to have a knack for incorporating technology into their daily lives, thus making their mecha look friendlier or even kawaii in the process.
Western Mecha tends to carry a very militarized look, young men in Western countries grew up with heroic macho-men soldiers, and I believe our Mecha designs are a logical progression from that.

Both designs are appreciable; Most of my mates would say the Atlas for example looks "cooler" for example, than say the RX-78.

Westerners definitely don't view machines as alien and threatening. We have alot of gearheads over here too; don't be condescending
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Old 2009-08-09, 03:21   Link #119
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Mecha's the only reason, after DBZ of course, that i started to watch anime.

If i was going to watch slice of life, and sad romance stories, then other shows and life in general would be entertaining enough. Anime, mecha and futuristic si fi to be more specific show a world that hasn't been captured well in live shows.
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Old 2009-08-09, 03:34   Link #120
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Yeah, pretty much.

Mecha/Supernatural themes are something you can't get in real life, there's no substitute.
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