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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 85 63.43%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 26.12%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 5.97%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 0.75%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.24%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.75%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.75%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-08, 03:24   Link #41
Ratix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
Without even watching this episode yet, I'm going to go out and try to defend J.C. Staff on this one.

I'm forced to agree that Zero no Tsukaima II was just outright outrageous and completely disappointing. No excuse.

However, when you're taking an unfinished series and try to adapt it into an animation, you're just bound to have trouble. Look at the fan response J.C. Staff received from Season 1. With a huge increase in popularity and satisfaction comes with a huge price - the pressure to keep those fans satisfied. And with only eight of the 16+ novels covered, there is no excuse not to have a Season 2.

How long did it take to produce Season 1? Personally, I don't know. But what I do know is that with the large amount of fan response and the pressure that came with it, J.C. Staff was locked into a situation where they must develop a second season within less than a year. The result is as you see here: a decent but below-expectations anime with some pretty awesome highlighting moments but an overall rush job.

Can you really blame J.C. Staff for being "incompetent"? Probably not. The decision to have a second season was necessary. Did it need to be only a year apart, I definitely think not. However, with Shana's large fanbase (as evidenced in the many Saimoe contests that I analytically cover), it's not exactly easy to say it will be one season and done, especially with the cliffhanger left at the end of Season 1. There's the force that gives off the pressure.

And it's not like they had a clear direction of where they were going: the novels have yet to be finished. However, one could argue that there was enough content to create a second season.

With the limited amount of time they had to work on SnS II, they first have to prepare some sort of backup story. That's where the Fumina Konoe arc comes in. Although it does play a part to the Season 1 ending arc with Hecate synchronizing memories and such, everyone, myself included, says that this was taken to far. This is rather justifiable. Let's say Fumina doesn't exist - that no "filler" arc existed at all. Given their budget that they would have saved, they may or may not extend arcs to have a longer span of episodes and improved on the qualities. But what if the Sabrac arc finished in episode 18 and they aren't prepared to come up with the most climatic arc to close out the final six episodes? That, in my opinion, is much worse than what J.C. Staff has presented us with.

And when dealing with the budget, last I checked, Shana 1 didn't have a Naruto or Pokemon primetime slot - rather, it had a post-midnight slot. If you think about it, many high schoolers who are anime freaks would probably be in bed right about now getting ready for school. TV ratings weren't high at all, so the budget was low to begin with.

Sure, it can be much more improved. But what choice did J.C. Staff have? Who anticipated that Shakugan no Shana would have as much success as we could have seen? If I recall, there wasn't a Shana subforum when Season 1 aired. Heck, I don't think there were that many Shana novel fans that watch anime in general. Given how this played out at the end of Season 1, I really don't see an alternative solution in this case that can be played out better than it can now.
Not an excuse to rush Season 2...

Just look at Haruhi. They certainly took their time to make a season 2.
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Old 2008-03-08, 03:50   Link #42
Malintex_Terek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratix View Post
Just look at Haruhi. They certainly took their time to make a season 2.
Quoting this for truth. Shana is J.C. Staff's flagship property, the largest money-maker in a while, with not only two seasons but OVA's, a movie and (possibly) more movies to come. It should be their most polished anime since so many people are going to it for not just the story, but the artwork, actors/actresses and so many other things; cheapening out on it just ruins the show's reputation and hurts chances for more, like Fate/stay night.
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Old 2008-03-08, 09:43   Link #43
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good episode. The fighting was really nice.

next episode, christmas eve, i thought won't have christmas.
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Old 2008-03-08, 09:44   Link #44
kyoulover
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Well...although i may say this is a great ep...

still...something's wrong...

never thought they can beat that kaijin sabrac very fast

hope SnS 2nd not as bad as ZnT II
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Old 2008-03-08, 10:00   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratix View Post
Not an excuse to rush Season 2...

Just look at Haruhi. They certainly took their time to make a season 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Quoting this for truth. Shana is J.C. Staff's flagship property, the largest money-maker in a while, with not only two seasons but OVA's, a movie and (possibly) more movies to come. It should be their most polished anime since so many people are going to it for not just the story, but the artwork, actors/actresses and so many other things; cheapening out on it just ruins the show's reputation and hurts chances for more, like Fate/stay night.
Wait just a minute. You're talking about Haruhi Season 2, is that it?

Anyway, this goes to comparing studios, since Haruhi's dragged in as an example to show how "incompetent" J.C staff are. While I'm not exactly the happiest SnS II watcher, believing that the quality could be better, that doesn't mean J.C and KyoAni have the same quality of staff, same amount of budget given to them and the same mindsets.
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Old 2008-03-08, 13:18   Link #46
Malintex_Terek
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Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny View Post
Wait just a minute. You're talking about Haruhi Season 2, is that it?
Just comparisons. Haruhi is Kyoto Animation's flagship property, their most popular title. Even considering Lucky Trash's success, Haruhi was the trigger and SII will no doubt top the first and LS's sales. So Kyoto Animation is taking pains to make it look good, since many people are going to buy it for reasons other than the story. Shana is J.C. Staff's equivalent to Haruhi, the defining show of the whole studio.
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Old 2008-03-08, 13:31   Link #47
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratix View Post
Not an excuse to rush Season 2...

Just look at Haruhi. They certainly took their time to make a season 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Quoting this for truth. Shana is J.C. Staff's flagship property, the largest money-maker in a while, with not only two seasons but OVA's, a movie and (possibly) more movies to come. It should be their most polished anime since so many people are going to it for not just the story, but the artwork, actors/actresses and so many other things; cheapening out on it just ruins the show's reputation and hurts chances for more, like Fate/stay night.
you forget that KyoAni's other shows have done well enough that they don't need to make another season of Haruhi until they feel like it.

if KyoAni's other properties had the sales figures of J.C. properties, Haruhi would have been rushed too. But of course Kanon has like twice the sales figures of SnS 1, Lucky star has 3 times the sales of SnS 1, Clannad has twice the sales of SnS 1, and even before Haruhi, air had about twice the sales figures of SnS 1. In fact, the only shows KyoAni has made that have sold worse than ANY J.C properties is FMP shows. (never gonna see those again)


It's a foolish comparison, because KyoAni makes enough money to do as they please, while J.C. staff doesn't. Producers expect results, even if it means turning out inferior products. It's exactly because it's a money maker that Shana 2 got rushed.
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Old 2008-03-08, 13:43   Link #48
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ashlay nearly stole the words out of my mouth. You can't compare Haruhi with Shana solely because of the before-and-after productions of their respective producers. ashlay made a case in point for Kyoto Animation's side, so now let me give you J.C. Staff's side.

If you think back to J.C.'s previous productions from 1/1/2003 to SnS I, you would see basically no-name animations that couldn't make top just because they are defeated even before AIR was released:

Nanaka 6/17 (2003)
Mahou Tsukai ni Taisetsu na Koto (2003)
Gunparade March ~Aratanaru Kougunka~ (2003)
Ikki Tousen (2003)
R.O.D -THE TV- (2003)
Shingetsutan Tsukihime (2003)
Ai Yori Aoshi ~Enishi~ (2003)
Maburaho (2003)
Sensei no Ojikan: Doki Doki School Hours (2004)
Hikari to Mizu no Daphne -Daphne in the Brilliant Blue- (2004)
Bōkyaku no Senritsu (2004) (a.k.a. Melody of Oblivion)
Oku-sama wa Mahō Shōjo (2005)
Karin (2005)
Gokujou Seitokai (2005)

If you think about it, these weren't successful at all, so however good they really are in terms of storyline, animation, whatever, they were pretty much planned one and done.

Shakugan no Shana turned out to be the dramatic increasing climax of J.C.'s career, and because of this, many decided to watch their preceding runs. Honey and Clover made an impact as well, and that may as well have led to a second season, planned or not planned. But, because of SnS and ultimately Zero no Tsukaima's success, J.C.'s plans may have changed in order to keep the small number of fans that they have. With that kind of pressure, what more can you expect than a decrease in quality?
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Old 2008-03-08, 22:16   Link #49
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The point is, I believe you may have misunderstood, that you said Shana 2 has to be rushed because Shana 1 was a success. Which doesn't make sense.

Haruhi is just an example of how that doesn't necessary need to occur.

In this case, its just a bad decision made by J.C. Staff.

Well, not that I mind but I personally prefer to see it follow the novel thoroughly from start to end though.
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Old 2008-03-08, 22:43   Link #50
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^did you actually read the posts before yours, because Shana 1 was a success, jc staff rushed shana 2 in order to cash in some profit quickly (as their other titles are not doing as well as shana). while KyoAni has other titles that has done just as well if not better than haruhi, so they didn't need to rush the second season to get some cash. in the end of the day it all comes down to money, if jc staff didn't rush sns 2 and znt 2, they would have a pretty bad year.
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:16   Link #51
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Is there anyone in this series that fills the anti-hero role by any chance? Just a curious question.
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:17   Link #52
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Is there anyone in this series that fills the anti-hero role by any chance? Just a curious question.
Not yet....
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:44   Link #53
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Not yet....
What about Wilhelmina?
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:50   Link #54
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Wilhelmina is an anti-hero?
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:53   Link #55
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What is the exact definition of an 'anti-hero'...?
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:57   Link #56
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What is the exact definition of an 'anti-hero'...?
A hero who lacks a moral code, and normally has the attitude of a battle scarred badass.
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:58   Link #57
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From Wikipedia

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In fiction, an anti-hero is a protagonist who is lacking the traditional heroic attributes and qualities, and instead possesses character traits that are antithetical to heroism.
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Old 2008-03-09, 02:11   Link #58
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Those descriptions would fit pretty much any Flame Haze, including Shana in the early part of the series...
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Old 2008-03-09, 02:24   Link #59
ashlay
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Wilhelmina is an anti-hero?
whoops, meant Margery. >_>
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Old 2008-03-09, 05:49   Link #60
Malintex_Terek
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Those descriptions would fit pretty much any Flame Haze, including Shana in the early part of the series...
...not really. Anti-heroes are characters who act like villains (or have the traits commonly associated with a villain) yet are for various reasons aligned on the side of the protagonists. The Flame Haze are very firmly set in the ordinary hero category.

There is a significant anti-hero in Shana but he hasn't shown up yet. Here's a hint.
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