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Old 2008-03-12, 22:42   Link #61
Quarkboy
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Stepping back a bit, look at the issue in terms of scalability.

We want more people to buy when more people watch. I.e. the more anime gets watched, the more money people should put into the industry. But right now, even though more people are watching, less money is being spent on the industry.

Solutions involving expensive DVD releases or even paid streams don't seem to scale very well... people have a limited amount of money and would simply limit the amount of anime they watch to within their budget: I.e. those plans would end up stunting viewership and/or keep fansubs in place as a free alternative.
On the other hand, an advertising model scales profit with viewership directly. That's why US tv uses it: toonami jetsream, the new hulu, even youtube to some extent realizes that the SCALABLE solution is only an advertising model, at least for a product that is generally considering "watch once".
(i-tunes and amazon unbox might be the exception to my theory, but I suspect they'll be supplanted by ad-supported sites sooner or later for these types of shows).
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Old 2008-03-13, 00:09   Link #62
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
No offense, but the entire topic of the interview/discussion refers to the industries in Japan and America. A fan from Argentina who doesn't buy (much) anime or merchandise is not really the focus of the discussion.
Hey, when did I become the center of attention?

I know it's perhaps a bit far off the scope of the average American, but perhaps it would be important to realize that, sometimes, getting anime "legally" in the West means getting it from the US. I, and a lot of people not only in third world countries, but also in Europe (a sizable portion of the anime fanbase), don't want to get it through yet another middleman when there's a costless alternative instead.

I know the industry gives a damn about me, but perhaps they would reconsider it when there's another 50 million of me (according to Statistic #12378 out of WK's ass), around the globe, who can be contacted and served in a costless and efficient manner (== the almighty Internet), and thus eliminating the distributing middleman. And eliminating middlemen (in this case, the US anime industry, and with it all that ANN represents) is the current trend of the entertainment business... and that's something no fansubbing e-drama can ever hope to change.
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Old 2008-03-13, 19:31   Link #63
Obi-Wan
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I always thought the difference between downloads (lots) and DVD sales (not lots) was because a lot anime fans are teenagers and they may not work, or only work part time. I remember when I only worked part time, it was hard to buy anime DVDs and still have money left over for gas and important things. After I got a job that paid more, I was able to buy the DVDs I wanted without much of an affect on my income. Again, this doesn't apply to everyone, but there are a lot of young people that are anime fans and expecting them or their parents to buy DVDs of every show they want to watch is a stretch in my opinion. I mean, if they really love a show, they should buy it to support the show and the R1 market, I suppose.
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Old 2008-03-13, 20:19   Link #64
cyth
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For most fans, buying or not buying anime goods is not a money issue. The first of the bigger factors here is that most fans are just very casual. Either they watch anime on TV or YouTube and forget about them, so they spend very little or no money on their hobby. The second one is that younger fans do not feel obliged to buy something that is virtually untouchable, and they do believe anime is free (see: Steal This Film 2). The third is what some people like to call "The Crap Factor". Let's face it, the bigger part of all anime productions is not aiming for mainstream market appeal. This may have always been the case, but that well of "good" titles for the R1 market has dried up. I don't believe this can change because of the nature of the medium, but the possibility is there.
We all got fooled by the seemingly explosive anime popularity of the last decade. R1 companies didn't know how to take advantage of all that hype at the beginning. I regret that they were trying to expand their consumer base instead of strengthening their existing fan base by trying to raise awareness of the industry and how fans can help it stay in the green zone. Now the hype is gone and true ardent devotees are small in numbers.
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:27   Link #65
SinsI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan View Post
I always thought the difference between downloads (lots) and DVD sales (not lots) was because a lot anime fans are teenagers and they may not work, or only work part time. I remember when I only worked part time, it was hard to buy anime DVDs and still have money left over for gas and important things. After I got a job that paid more, I was able to buy the DVDs I wanted without much of an affect on my income.
That situation is very short-lived. You have extra money because a typical full-time job is supposed to support not one but one and a half or two people. As soon as you get yourself a wife and a kid all those leftover money will disappear - and it would be wise not to waste the extra you have now on anime - you will need them later on!
Of course, hikkikomori are exluded from this law of nature.
Quote:
For most fans, buying or not buying anime goods is not a money issue.
As money don't grow on trees, most fans are very limited in the amount they can spend on entertainment. If you have 5 million fans that can shell out 5-6$ a month - you won't get more than $30 million no matter what you do to fansubs, pirates or scanlations. And If you reduce the amount of their exposure to anime - by removing free alternatives like fansubs or television - you'd reduce the number of fans and lose out even on the $30 million you could've gotten.
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Old 2008-03-14, 07:36   Link #66
wa-totem
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Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Wow, long post
Why, thank you

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Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
I'm a bit confused... Haven't I been the one advocating an online subtitled streaming alternative available at or around the same time as Japan? So we're on the same page, right?
With certain reservations. You seem to believe the key issue is time. To me, the key issue is variety of forms of availability.

Today, my choice is basically limited to
a) non-localized boxed product meant for japanese market (legal, though not always, see "for sale only in...")
b) overpriced, US-localized boxed product (legal... and containing little value-added in my eyes)
c) fansubs (illegal)

I want more variability in pricing, based on value-added (raw, quality, subs, dub, both), and more choices in distro (boxed product, downloadable file, stream). I want no degraded-quality on downloads, and streams when possible, and I want no DRM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
The DRM comment is just unrealistic, unfortunately. Japanese companies routinely demand that CSS or stronger encryption is used on DVD releases, which we all know has been broken for almost a decade now. Though I agree that DRM is useless and futile, it's not realistic to expect it to disappear overnight. The Japanese have pretty much insisted on it for all online ventures so far (Funi, ADV, BOST, etc.)
Warner and 7Digital think otherwise. Please read this article on The Inquirer. Ray of sanity, wouldn't you say? But of course, NOT in America, which is stuck in its dark age of persecution. Clearly farming netizens for litigation is too good a business for industry cronies and Washington lobbyists to let go...

When you go to a store to buy an axe, it doesn't come chained on a 2-foot chain to a collar for your neck, so that you can't swing it at a fellow human being. Both axe makers and other people assume you get an axe for carpentry work and not to murder someone. And only once you DO hack someone to pieces does the society bring you to justice.

Likewise, downloadable files shouldn't come with DRM, with an assumption that even when you payed for them you still are a thief at heart and will steal the files somehow.

Unfortunately, right now, there's no way of paying for a music file that I got, say, from a friend. Or copied from his rare, old record. This is because the industry wants to retain nazi-style control over what I can get, and where from. Which I happen to find absolutely unacceptable infringement of my freedom. They're actively refusing to accept payment, and trying to extort from me money for services which are, objectively speaking, not necessary.

Really, it'd be funny if we didn't go through this all a century ago.

Why? Read up on the pianola rolls and sheet music controversy. Only then, stage/piano bar artists claimed they will starve, and noone will know how to play piano or compose music anymore. LOL. America learned nothing...

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
perhaps they would reconsider it when there's another 50 million of me (according to Statistic #12378 out of WK's ass), around the globe, who can be contacted and served in a costless and efficient manner (== the almighty Internet), and thus eliminating the distributing middleman. And eliminating middlemen (in this case, the US anime industry, and with it all that ANN represents) is the current trend of the entertainment business... and that's something no fansubbing e-drama can ever hope to change.
My point, exactly. Middlemen belong in last century, they are a breed dying out faster than the dinosaurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
If you have 5 million fans that can shell out 5-6$ a month - you won't get more than $30 million no matter what you do to fansubs, pirates or scanlations. And If you reduce the amount of their exposure to anime - by removing free alternatives like fansubs or television - you'd reduce the number of fans and lose out even on the $30 million you could've gotten.
YES! Finally someone said it. Unfortunately, this simple truth is routinely overlooked - totally in bad faith - by industry cronies counting "losses from illegal downloads".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
If you like Italian cars and want to support the Italian car makers, buy any Italian car.
Perhaps I failed at making myself clear enough, but either you contradict yourself or you just accepted my point of view. What I have been trying to say is, while I can choose from various italian cars, Tofu and the industry tells me "there is no other form of anime than DVD". And I say, fansubs proove otherwise. I am aware of industry's experiments with streams, but they are either priced so as to dscourage their use, or technologically inferior (when they do not have to be, and fansubs again are a proof).
Also, as I type this there's a figurine of Rin Tousaka sitting on the top edge of my screen, and there are some OST CDs sitting in the drawer - because nobody is actively denying me the right to rip them so I can keep the discs safe while I listen to the contents on my PC, or portable device of choice. I have one pair of ears, so no matter how many copies I make, I will always be using only one. Right?
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Last edited by wa-totem; 2008-03-14 at 07:48.
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Old 2008-03-14, 13:07   Link #67
Tofusensei
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I think this quote from Kadokawa in regards to partnering with Youtube is wonderful and will hopefully be groundbreaking:

"Fans lay the foundations of a trend. They upload anime films to YouTube to introduce their favorite anime, sometimes even going to the trouble of translating the dialog. We can distribute the films to regular movie theaters or sell DVDs after the groundwork has already been established.

Those who want to see clear pictures will buy DVDs. People who have failed to see on-air programs or those who just want to see what it is like will view content on YouTube. Not only videos but also character goods and illustrations have a chance to be a top seller. Under the present situation, we are wasting these opportunities. "

-Tofu
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