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Old 2008-03-12, 09:46   Link #21
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
I just don't see who you'd be pleasing, except maybe giving yourself a bit of a moral excuse?
Right, it's all about the fansubber again...

Like I said, it would be an experiment. Unlicensed shows have other products people could be buying, it's not just about products from the R1 region, but eh... It's not a moral excuse, it's an attempt to help the industry come up with more profit. As Tofu said, thinking about hurting the industry with fansubbing becomes an afterthought because if you aren't going to, someone else will. Actually, I'm glad TheFluff and the rest agree on the impact fansub ads could have. Informing the people about the newest products isn't a moral excuse, I do that all the time on my blog and it doesn't get in the way of the little content it has.

The groups already doing this are taking a responsible approach to their hobby, that's all I have to say. Without fansubbing, anime wouldn't be much of a hobby to English-speaking communities.
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Old 2008-03-12, 10:20   Link #22
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
It's not a moral excuse, it's an attempt to help the industry come up with more profit.
Leave the industry's profit to the industry; if you really want to help them make a profit, buy some fucking DVD's yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
As Tofu said, thinking about hurting the industry with fansubbing becomes an afterthought because if you aren't going to, someone else will.
That's moral sophistery at its best; if you don't want to "hurt the industry", do what they tell you to and stop fansubbing. Saying "but then someone else will just do it instead" isn't a valid excuse. Stop trying to come up with bizarre ways to try to rationalize it. Either you don't give a fuck about the industry or copyright laws and say "they'll have to solve their own problems", or you do care and then you don't fansub. There is no middle ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
Actually, I'm glad TheFluff and the rest agree on the impact fansub ads could have.
Where did I agree with you about that? I said that advertising that's practically guaranteed to reach the exact group they're trying to get to buy their products is something they'd pay money for, since that kind of advertising gives the most bang for the buck by not reaching anyone not interested in anime. I didn't say that I thought it would have any significant effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
The groups already doing this are taking a responsible approach to their hobby, that's all I have to say.
Yeah, doing something patently illegal that the companies you claim to be a fan of desperately would want you to stop doing sure is responsible behavior! I really like your reasoning there, brosef.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
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Old 2008-03-12, 10:37   Link #23
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Leave the industry's profit to the industry; if you really want to help them make a profit, buy some fucking DVD's yourself.
Oh, don't you worry about me, it's the other kids out there you should be worrying about. Thus the idea about fansub ads.
Quote:
Where did I agree with you about that? I said that advertising that's practically guaranteed to reach the exact group they're trying to get to buy their products is something they'd pay money for, since that kind of advertising gives the most bang for the buck by not reaching anyone not interested in anime. I didn't say that I thought it would have any significant effect.
My bad, I always assumed targeting your potential consumers accurately is a sign of efficient advertising.
Quote:
Either you don't give a fuck about the industry or copyright laws and say "they'll have to solve their own problems", or you do care and then you don't fansub. There is no middle ground.
No, that's just another one of your populist rationalizations. People love them, btw. I love anime, consequently I love the industry, I fansub and watch fansubs and I have no regrets doing that, I buy anime and related products, and I want others to do the same. In my last post I said "Without fansubbing, anime wouldn't be much of a hobby to English-speaking communities." This holds true and I wouldn't be here discussing this and spending thousands of dollars yearly on the industry if I didn't get to see that Love Hina fansub. So don't tell me there is no middle ground.
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Old 2008-03-12, 11:37   Link #24
Slice of Life
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Fluff, between "follow blindly the rules other people have made" and "do whatever benefits you" is a wide gap where you can (and should) locate your personal ethics. Everybody who watches fansubs and buys DVDs like Toua, me, you(?) does that.

But I want to stress that despite being an anime fan I neither love the industry, nor do I have casual sex with it.
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Old 2008-03-12, 21:57   Link #25
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
As for advertising, I think it would be a hollow gesture on everyone's part, and would do no good.
An example:
If my memory serves me, the Uta-kata ep 7 fansub had a note at the end mentioning that a nice series-related figure was on sale/pre-order. I don't see how it is hollow to mention that some interesting goods for the series exist. If someone else is inspired to buy the goods, then it may have a good effect in the long run.

Quick background: The main character wears a different costume every episode and the costume for that episode was designed by a figure designer. They had decided to do a limited release of a figure wearing that costume.

Side note: Part of the reason Konjiki no Gash Bell got canceled was the character goods were selling like crap in Japan. If 1000 of the people who watched the fansub ended up buying some goods, it might have helped. (Doubt it, but I don't know how bad was bad.)

Quote:
I just don't see who you'd be pleasing, except maybe giving yourself a bit of a moral excuse?
I've heard it claimed many many times by both fansubbers and watchers "We'd love to watch/sub the commercials, but they aren't in the raw."

Also, there is always someone out there watching who wants goods related to the show. What is wrong with notifying the people watching the show, who are arguably fans, that these goods exist on the website or in a note? It might be arguable that mentioning R1 releases is moral high ground, but it isn't like people watching fansubs understand Japanese and can find the really fun japanese goods that get released.

I decided to mention the R1 release info for Haruhi on the BT page to keep with the whole viral spirit of the show. (That and I was sick of people going "I can't find Haruhi on your BT page".)
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Old 2008-03-12, 22:39   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
I've heard it claimed many many times by both fansubbers and watchers "We'd love to watch/sub the commercials, but they aren't in the raw."
It probably isn't on the raw for two reasons... File size, a few extra minutes of images and sound could make that 200mb file which is shared several million times a bit larger.

Second, it probably isn't done since many commercials shown durring the airing of these episodes are probably regional, and may not relate in any way or form with the anime. Additionally subgroups may have a harder time providing subtitles depending on where that episode was recorded (nevermind the chance that someone having such region-specific content may make them easier to pinpoint and charge).

But something tells me it is just a throwback to the old VHS subbing days where commercials were never a part of the process.

As for if it should be done now a days, I'm tempted to think against it, if only because some commercial might catch on world wide (nice boat), and make the fansubbing group more known outside the community. But that's probably crazy talk.
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Old 2008-03-13, 06:27   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant0 View Post
But something tells me it is just a throwback to the old VHS subbing days where commercials were never a part of the process.
FYI, most of the VHS subbing groups who subbed raws from TV in Japan (and there were many of them), left the commercials in!

-Tofu
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Old 2008-03-13, 06:48   Link #28
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Right now I'd actually want to know how much was being spent by people outside of Japan, importing the R2 DVDs and associated merchandise which was only brought to said foreigner's attention by fansubs in the first place.

Is it really doing a disservice for anime and fans if a URL or mention of merchandising is placed in a fansub?
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Old 2008-03-13, 08:21   Link #29
cyth
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You really can't get those numbers, since non-disc anime-related goods are covered by smaller services like HLJ, Paletweb, Hobby Search, Benippon, J-list, Himeya, and their sales numbers are most likely added to overall Japanese sales figures. Then you have R2 DVDs, music and manga that are covered by Japan-based outlets like Amazon JP, HMV, CDJapan, bk1...

I think the sheer number of these retailers and other proxy shopping services shows that importing original Japanese goods is profitable business. I know some bloggers that are very vocal about buying figurines and stuff, but are strictly against buying DVDs and other media, so the whole fansub ad thing wouldn't be just about DVDs and stuff you can simply download. In my opinion, the thought of owning an imported figure or other types of fan goods doesn't cross most people's minds, so naturally they don't look for them.
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Old 2008-03-13, 09:11   Link #30
edogawaconan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
I know some bloggers that are very vocal about buying figurines and stuff, but are strictly against buying DVDs and other media, so the whole fansub ad thing wouldn't be just about DVDs and stuff you can simply download.
for me, it's the reverse
I prefer buying DVDs than figurines...

Kara no Kyoukai DVDs are expensive though... Limited edition 7500 JPY per volume (total 3 volume - and later 8)
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Old 2008-03-13, 10:58   Link #31
cyth
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I prefer base goods like DVDs as well. :P But about Kara no Kyoukai, you can get it cheaper at places like HMV. Nobody pays full retail prices in Japan anyway.
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Old 2008-03-13, 11:27   Link #32
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I can't find it for pre-order (in fact, I can only find it on CDJapan (base price) and Amazon jp (25% discount))
other recommendation?
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Old 2008-03-14, 01:39   Link #33
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I'll answer this question actually.

Basically, I do try to push people to go buy the US DVD releases of series that we've worked on or that my websites are related to, and I do the same with the Negima manga for example. That's why we pull the chapters for an upcoming volume a few weeks before US release and I post the Amazon link so people can just click and order.

And when series get licensed, I pull our torrent and bot releases off, and post the Amazon link when a release date is announced so people know of an easy link to go buy it. If you go to my group's main site and look under Support, you'll see this. Same goes for my Negima site.

The Amazon Links are a great way to promote DVD and manga releases of series. Granted, there is some benefit in this for those of you who know what they do, but at the same time, it does help promote sales of the legitimate releases.

Since I've met some people in the industry, especially when a company has licensed a series that I really enjoyed working on, I do want to help them out so that it hopefully sells well, so that way they can pick up more good stuff for the US market.
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Old 2008-03-14, 04:06   Link #34
Vexx
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I've run across a number of fansub sites that not only take down their subs when the R1 release appears but replace it with information on where to buy the product.

It doesn't really change the situation, but then I don't really see the producers responding to the market vacuum the subs fill yet either.
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Old 2008-03-14, 20:56   Link #35
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant0 View Post
It probably isn't on the raw for two reasons... File size, a few extra minutes of images and sound could make that 200mb file which is shared several million times a bit larger.
I think it isn't in the raw because who wants to watch commercials? The majority of raw providers get their raws from Japanese P2P networks. The Japanese aren't putting captures up for us, they're putting them up for each other. It's no different than those torrents that are put up for Family Guy or Lost, or any other TV show here in the US. People presumably put them up for other people who missed it or don't have access to it. Commercials are removed to make it more enjoyable. Commercial removal is a feature of TiVo, isn't it? Cutting out the commercials is just what people want, so the Japanese cut out their commercials (which are only of interest to some foreigners, I'm sure) because their purpose is to share with other Japanese.

In my 1-2 years as a hardcore raw provider I only ever found one commercial, and it was its own file. The only groups capable of getting commercials in are those with their own dedicated raw cappers, or those who want to seek out commercials and throw them in on their own.

On this topic, I don't see what the issue is. If a group lets you know the series is licensed then they're alterting you to the fact that you'll be able to buy it. You can look up the licensing information yourself and find the company's advertising from there, it isn't a difficult procedure.
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Old 2008-03-14, 21:27   Link #36
Skyward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
In my 1-2 years as a hardcore raw provider I only ever found one commercial, and it was its own file. The only groups capable of getting commercials in are those with their own dedicated raw cappers, or those who want to seek out commercials and throw them in on their own.
Actually the transport streams still contain all the commercials. None of it is relevant though as the majority of it is the current weather, or some shampoo, or a DS game. There seems to be a lot of commercials for different bands and albums though. However its incredibly rare to find a commercial related to the current show, unless its an advertisement to buy the R2J dvds (in which case it's only moderately rare).

Last edited by Skyward; 2008-03-14 at 21:30. Reason: clarification
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Old 2008-03-14, 23:40   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
Actually the transport streams still contain all the commercials. None of it is relevant though as the majority of it is the current weather, or some shampoo, or a DS game. There seems to be a lot of commercials for different bands and albums though. However its incredibly rare to find a commercial related to the current show, unless its an advertisement to buy the R2J dvds (in which case it's only moderately rare).
Are you crazy? Pretty much all late night anime I see has ads almost exclusively for
1. The opening/ending single
2. The DVD release for the show itself
3. other music published by the sponser like "lantis group", etc...
4. other shows put out by the DVD house.

shows that air in prime time and the morning, sure, they have normal ads. But the shows that air after 1 AM or so have ads that almost exclusively for the companies that produced the show.
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Old 2008-03-14, 23:58   Link #38
wao
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Even for stuff in the morning, actually. At least I remember Eureka 7 had commercials directly tied into the anime - most of the time it was CMs for the OP/ED, the game or some manga, although I think they also had ads for PSP which would be relevant to the interests of watchers. And that aired at 7am or something on a Sunday IIRC.


I haven't watched fansubs for quite some time but I have absolutely no problem with people putting a subtle tip about certain media or merchandise coming out on their webpages and video releases. People do it on forums all the time in the same line that they talk about how they downloaded the latest anime... even if the effect may be questionable I'm still not convinced it has much harm to anybody as long as it's kept subtle. I would of course feel a bit put-off by large flashy "If you don't buy anything you're not a fan! GTFO my lawn, no animu for yuo!" type of moralistic message, but otherwise...

But I'm not the target of fansub groups anymore so well, it's entirely up to them, and for anyone who really wants to being warned that it "pleases no one" and is a "moral excuse" won't stop them... hopefully.
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Old 2008-03-15, 01:14   Link #39
Skyward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Are you crazy? Pretty much all late night anime I see has ads almost exclusively for
1. The opening/ending single
2. The DVD release for the show itself
3. other music published by the sponser like "lantis group", etc...
4. other shows put out by the DVD house.

shows that air in prime time and the morning, sure, they have normal ads. But the shows that air after 1 AM or so have ads that almost exclusively for the companies that produced the show.
I never really noticed that all the commercials were related to the show in some way or another. However, now that I look at it again, you're right. Now I know I'm gonna be stuck trying to figure out how each one relates to the show while I wait for everyone else to finish.
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Old 2008-03-15, 01:14   Link #40
Quarkboy
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Hmm, actually that's an interesting legal question:

Say I'm a company in the business of making Naruto merchandise (legit)... Could I pay for DB, say, to insert an advertisement into their fansubs?

Would that actually be illegal for the company paying for the advertising? After all, it's not them distributing the show illegally, it seems like it should be legal for people to advertise anywhere they see fit, even if the medium you advertise in can't be legally sold. (I.e. if I buy 6 months of magazine ads and issue 3 ends up being child porn, I'm not liable for anything just because I happened to advertise in the publication).
Not that fansub groups should take such money, but I'm simply wondering if it's even legal.
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