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Old 2008-04-25, 04:29   Link #81
KasumiGirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Any reason why deviantart is the exception to rule in regards to using images for stuff like this?
I think what BearShare is trying to say, is that what images we use now are original art, but if you use something from somewhere like Deviantart, it's fan made and you should contact the artist if you want to use it. I used to go on DA very often and find messages like "please ask permission before using it first".

But I don't know, Solace. It's up to you.
The rule wouldn't really effect me, anyways.
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Old 2008-04-25, 04:41   Link #82
KiNA
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Quote:
2. Contestants must submit original works. This means you cannot simply cut a picture out, slap your name on it, and call it your own. Claiming someone else's work as your own is also not allowed, nor is reusing one of your older signatures. Anyone caught doing this will have their entries removed from the contest.
After a discouraging wallpaper cropped signature leading this month (not every leading signature), I fully agree with this ( I feel its a lame and disrespectful to others that made their own) but I''m not totally sure on the bold part.. I think, as long as thats your work, it should be okay to submit it.

Quote:
We need a rule on no using fan-art from deviantart.
Whats so special about DA that demands an exception. The signature are not use for profit.. And art from DA is no different then other doujinshi/fanart found on imageboards..

And I proposed providing source renders for signature too for submissions (<- maybe going too far - at least demandable on suspected crop work) but some peoples use cropped wallpapers as signature submission just pissed me off more then losing twice to Sephi!
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Old 2008-04-25, 04:57   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiNA View Post
And I proposed providing source renders for signature too for submissions (<- maybe going too far - at least demandable on suspected crop work) but some peoples use cropped wallpapers as signature submission just pissed me off more then losing twice to Sephi!
I think i'm going to have to agree with KiNA here. I don't particularly have a problem with cropped signatures, but I would like all the sources.
I mean - it's basically ripping. For example, if I took one of KiNA's wallies, cropped it, and maybe added some text, i'm pretty sure KiNA would hit me in the head. That requires no skill, or even...no effort. AND I would have a sore head.
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Old 2008-04-25, 05:05   Link #84
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KasumiGirl View Post
I think what BearShare is trying to say, is that what images we use now are original art, but if you use something from somewhere like Deviantart, it's fan made and you should contact the artist if you want to use it. I used to go on DA very often and find messages like "please ask permission before using it first".

But I don't know, Solace. It's up to you.
The rule wouldn't really effect me, anyways.
It's understandable, but unpreventable. Once it's public, people are going to use it for whatever they wish and there really isn't much one can do about it....unless you are a major company with an army of lawyers sending.....angry letters. *shudder*

As an example, the only time I'd be bothered if someone used my signatures was if they were trying to use them on the same forum I was on and claiming that they did it. If they were simply using it, meh, if it makes them happy then great. But if they were impersonating me then I would be bothered by it. An example on our own forums would be Kisara (and if she's to be believed, Geki, though I doubt that one).

But in the end it's a big moral cluster. If we're going to say it's ok for people to use a recognizable anime character in a signature, we can't say one source is ok but another is not. As for completely original anime characters? I feel a headache starting just thinking about the moral issues from that. ><

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiNA View Post
After a discouraging wallpaper cropped signature leading this month (not every leading signature), I fully agree with this ( I feel its a lame and disrespectful to others that made their own) but I''m not totally sure on the bold part.. I think, as long as thats your work, it should be okay to submit it.
I suppose the rule can be adjusted to say "no reusing old contest signatures" instead.

Quote:
just pissed me off more then losing twice to Sephi!
I giggled.

On a more serious note - I'll let the community hash out the crop vs effort issue before I put my two cents in. I've already let KiNa know some of my feelings on the matter, but I'd ask that he keep them private for now. I would like to hear more input from everyone first.

Just keep it civil. I don't like preparing novel sized owned posts.
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Old 2008-04-25, 05:12   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
TROLL = BAD
That's what's wrong.
I see, I've always had the impression that trollers were lurker who just didn't post. My mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearShare View Post
We need a rule on no using fan-art from deviantart.
The subject on fan-art is pretty broad, even professionals does fan-art. So how could we tell which is which or what belongs to who if we're searching on anonymous image board.
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Old 2008-04-25, 06:19   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
On a more serious note - I'll let the ommunity hash out the crop vs effort issue before I put my two cents in. I've already let KiNa know some of my feelings on the matter, but I'd ask that he keep them private for now. I would like to hear more input from everyone first.
My take on the "crop VS effort" issue after giving it some thought is very simple - i don't think it should be taken much in to consideration, nor should it have much affect on the voting. Now, i fully understand someone might feel unhappy to see his X hours of work being beaten by X/5 hour work, but that is really besides the point.

Apologies for going to sound blunt, and i mean no disrespect here, but when i step in to a gallery i am there to see the paintings, not to analyze how much time was spent on each of them. The theme is after all "Rate this signature", not "rate the effort and time spent", nor is the later likely to get my approval as a judging basis for viability.

Now don't get me wrong - i fully appreciate the time everyone puts in to their entries and everyone deserves praise for the effort, but i am not about to condone using that as a yardstick to measure one's viability as an entry, never mind using it as argument to discredit the entries of others. (And i must say i am quite saddened to see it already surfacing every now and then.)

To sum it up: i wouldn't condone a contest where subjective staple like "effort" is used a yardstick for viability.
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Old 2008-04-25, 06:41   Link #87
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But then again.. When you voting for a crop work.. it isnt even his/her work.. Unless of course the original wallpaper is done by him as well..
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Old 2008-04-25, 06:53   Link #88
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Actually, it rather sounds like you mean "crop from wallpapers" and such, which indeed reflect of stealing other people work.
I think that it is quite misleading with the usual "crop" term, which is bluntly the image being cut and sized down, and perhaps spicied with effects and such.

I guess the discussion is just mixed up with the 2 situations here.
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Old 2008-04-25, 07:52   Link #89
KiNA
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Yes.. cropping from wallies are the major problem here.. And thats what pissed me off.
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Old 2008-04-25, 07:56   Link #90
KasumiGirl
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Cropped:

This is an example of what I mean when taken from a wallie.

Cropped+Effects:

I originally started with this image, and I added quite a bit of things. Though this can be rather ranging in different ways. Something like just colour tweaks and a couple of brushes can also come under this category.

I don't know what any of you guys think whether both of these shouldn't be allowed, or just the first type of using as a crop.
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Old 2008-04-25, 08:15   Link #91
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Naturally, I think everyone agrees that the first type is the issue here.
The second, I can't see any problem with that, which refers directly to skyfall's post.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:02   Link #92
Sephi
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Quote:
2. Contestants must submit original works. This means you cannot simply cut a picture out, slap your name on it, and call it your own. Claiming someone else's work as your own is also not allowed, nor is reusing one of your older signatures. Anyone caught doing this will have their entries removed from the contest.
It saddens me that something like this should even be mentioned. I can't speak for a majority of the community. But i personally thought the reason that we have SOTM is to improve and to learn. The two quoted things just defeats the purpose of the SOTM to begin with (IMHO).

Unless the participant think it takes great amount of skill to crop a sig and believe that there is a huge learning curve in that...

Of course i can also see Sky his point of view. For a non graphic designer it's just what is most appealing to the eye and vote for it. But for me as a graphic designer who has gone true a lot of effort to get to where i am now. I also get unpleasant feelings from the thought of a crop winning.

Though i already openly spoken about it with the people who i regularly speak over MSN. But at that moment the reason i gave was probably a bit weak. So my second try at it

Just to give a example:
Imagine there is a writing contest. You as a writer(person A) who has spend a lot of time in honing your skills as a writer spends several hours writing a article. And person B just copies it out of a book, twist a line or two around and submit it and than wins. I can not imagine any person in person A shoes that would not harbor any bad feelings about a thing like that happening.

Perhaps i'm a person with to much pride. But those are my thought about this subject. So my apologies if i hurt someones feelings in the process of trying to give my view on this subject.

As for deviantart stocks. It's quite frowned upon by some gfx community. Though i personally don't understand why. Perhaps it's just my limited view on things. But what is the difference of using the stock of someone from a deviantart fan-artist or using a stock some professional(anime scans) who are paid? As long as you don't claim the source is also your work i don't see the problem in that. Of course if the artist clearly said not to use it. Than you should just stay off of it.

Though perhaps it's my narrow view on things that make me think so... But i'm curious to find out why it's frowned upon myself to. So if anyone want to enlighten me on this subject i'm more than willing to learn about it
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Last edited by Sephi; 2008-04-25 at 11:21. Reason: killed typo! WRITE!
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:10   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephi View Post
Just to give a example:
Imagine there is a witting contest. You as a writer(person A) who has spend a lot of time in honing your skills as a writer spends several hours writing a article. And person B just copies it out of a book, twist a line or two around and submit it and than wins. I can not imagine any person in person A shoes that would not harbor any bad feelings about a thing like that happening.
The anology would work with a cropped signature from an existing work (read wallpaper etc). But it simply doesn't work with the second.
Cropping is way too relative, as some case, the crop is barely the absence of "cut" and external BG for the render.

Quote:
As for deviantart stocks. It's quite frowned upon by some gfx community. Though i personally don't understand why. Perhaps it's just my limited view on things. But what is the difference of using the stock of someone from a deviantart fan-artist or using a stock some professional(anime scans) who are paid? As long as you don't claim the source is also your work i don't see the problem in that. Of course if the artist clearly said not to use it. Than you should just stay off of it.

Though perhaps it's my narrow view on things that make me think so... But i'm curious to find out why it's frowned upon myself to. So if anyone want to enlighten me on this subject i'm more than willing to learn about it
This is probably because in the first case, you can ask the said artist the permission, while CG and such, it is pretty much moot and impossible to do that.
Also, most of the time, the use of render from Cg and such hardly have an impact to the initial goal of the designer: signatures and others are hardly impairing anime/eroge markets etc.

Meanwhile, misusing the arts and works of private and amateur artists is frowned upon, considering they are drawing and making these by themselves for show. various artists probably have different reasons, but I guess the most common is the fact the misuse of the work can go against the ideals of the drawer and such.
Especially if the "stealer" just adds some effects to that etc.

Ironically, using someone's work without their permission is almost like cropping a preprepared wallpaper into a signature. "You are using something which wasn't done by your own". There isn't really any proper middle/grey area here.

That said, I don't know if you saw wao's point a while back, but Japanese artists also begin to be annoyed by the use of their own arts without their permission.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:13   Link #94
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Cropping from existing work is my only concern. I don't consider stock manipulation cropping(what kasumigirl did). Though stock manipulation isn't the right word for that either more a tag... But yea, a wallie/scan and slapped in a sig size canvas and resized is what i'm talking about. Perhaps i should of made that more clear...

Quote:
Ironically, using someone's work without their permission is almost like cropping a preprepared wallpaper into a signature.
Depends what you do with it oO if it's something similar like Kasumigirl sig than i don't agree. But if it's like the first than yes.

And no i didn't saw WAO point.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:16   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephi View Post
Cropping from existing work is my only concern. I don't consider stock manipulation cropping(what kasumigirl did). Though stock manipulation isn't the right word for that either... But yea, a wallie/scan and slapped in a sig size canvas and resized is what i'm talking about. Perhaps i should of made that more clear...
Pretty much what I though. Sorry, I just added that point to be sure if we weren't talking about different things

That said, there is kinda some difficult way to stretch out what is allowed or whatnot
*scratches his head* I believe in the end, it should be left to voters' discretion, but I agree with the concern, and KiNA's solution seems rather nice... though I fear there might be "public executions" because of that.
In the end, if we involve too much things about "efforts" or whatnot, it will rather turn into serious business and competition, which are not the "main" part of the SOTM (I don't pretent there isn't any of these, but It would be troublesome if they are the core compenent of these things... they are quite different to AS banner contest after all).
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:17   Link #96
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My, my...what a state we have here

I guess there are two groups of people here. The non siggy makers and the siggy makers. Whereas the non siggy makers will just be looking at what appeals to them the most, to the siggy makes, they know how much effort they need to put into producing siggies. Whilst it is true that which ever siggy looks the best should win, it is rather annoying to see people who use minimal effort (like crops) to produce a pro looking siggy, when in fact the effort spent on making it isn't theirs in the first place. I'm not pointing any fingers in particular as I know the "person" who KiNa was refering to did put in a lot of effort, but as for argument's sake, I generally would shrug at cropped type siggies in contests. Whilst this should be a fun learning experience, I feel that the point is lost if people don't put in the effort (or at least try something new). Luckily though, I have seen minimal of such cases. It's good to see new people trying to make even a crop sig, if it is their first time, that is one of the ways to start before they become more exploring.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:24   Link #97
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I understand your feelings on the subject, and trust me when i say i can see where you are coming from. But there is one simple thing that doesn't let me apply your reasoning here - we are rating the end result, not the amount of effort put in to it. I apologize if i sound insensitive, but this is the best way to bring my point across - if i found a signature that was made in 1 hour to be more appealing than something made in 5 hours, i would vote the 1 hour one without blinking twice.

What we essentially have is "rate this signature", not "rate the effort spent on this signature", and i wouldn't approve of a contest based on the later as criteria, as it is too personal, to bias-sensitive and generally too unfeasible to make for objective criteria. I have no problems if a signature is denied entry if it was found unsuitable for the theme (even though even this is personally opinionated conclusion to a degree), but i can not approve of "entry denied because i don't think you put enough effort in it".

Of course i am not talking about the "crop a wall, stick text on it and voila" entries - those can indeed be discarded as plagiarism. But if someone takes an existing source and spends time actually modifying it (KasumiGirl's second example above) then i see no reason to deny such a work, nor would i condone a policy that advertises disallowing of such entries.

This whole project started as an idea for people to have fun, did it not ? Some competition is inevitable, and thats fine. But if it ends up creating such nitpicking of personal nature then i would be tempted to consider it no longer serving the intended purpose.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:36   Link #98
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Well as long the wallie is yours it is fine ^^. I don't see anything wrong with a crop siggy. If you wanna create a signature using a wallie from the creator of the wallie, ask them first, and see what they say. It is like drawing; sometimes you have to copy things to improve what you need to improve. So don't get too "AHHHH!" about it :P.

Sorry it doesn't make sense, but thats what I think. Maybe it is because you guys in general ere use of seeing GFX work instead of crop work oO.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:37   Link #99
KiNA
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Again, if KG's example is used.. the 2nd are never classified as a crop sig. A crop sig means its just a cropped and maybe some borders where the total work of that sig could probably taken him/her a few minutes tops to applied. KG's 2nd example have more things applied that at first glance you cant even tell its a crop in the first place.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:41   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephi View Post
And no i didn't saw WAO point.
Not really the topic, but I believe it is rather important for Sig makers to read that page
http://www3.to/ofp/

Depending how the fanart is used, a permission would be preferable to ask, especially from big shoes, such like kantoku, moonknives etc.
Obviously, this matter is far more related to websites and such which are stealing the artworks for brand use, which is quite different from sig material, but well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiNA View Post
Again, if KG's example is used.. the 2nd are never classified as a crop sig. A crop sig means its just a cropped and maybe some borders where the total work of that sig could probably taken him/her a few minutes tops to applied. KG's 2nd example have more things applied that at first glance you cant even tell its a crop in the first place.
The other problem will be the "third case": what about signatures which "look like crops", but that aren't? What about jobs which are quite nice by themselves (as the original picture CG was outstanding from the start), which don't exactly have much APPARENT work to need?
Maa... I guess the original source picture will be handy.

In the end, it becomes quite difficult to call head or tails, and it is quite "bias" after a while to consider something with sufficient efforts or whatnot, which we, moderators, refuse to apply on such competitions. As far as we can see, the main issue is pin pointed as "use of someone's else work" which is quite normal anyway.
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