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View Poll Results: Hardsub or softsub?
Hardsub. I prefer my fancy karaokes. 9 37.50%
Softsub. I want the option to be able to turn them off. 10 41.67%
I don't care. 5 20.83%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-06-24, 23:21   Link #81
getfresh
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I honestly do not understand what the big issue is about. If you like the karaoke or don't like it, it shouldn't matter. Fansubs are not meant to be used as a permanent copy. They are meant to be deleted once the show is licensed and distributed in the viewers language. I could understand arguing about this if fansubs were professional releases intended for the consumer market, but they aren't. Instead of complaining about what is annoying you with fansubs, wouldn't that energy be better spent contacting licensing companies and telling them what you would like to see them distribute in your area.

Just a thought.
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Old 2008-07-05, 15:25   Link #82
Daiz
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Okay, so nowadays, pretty much "the standard" in fansub karaoke is to have the romaji and kanji on top (or kanji on right/left) and the translation bottom.

While I was on a trip a while ago, I thought about how stupid it actually is; since the romaji is on the top and translation is on the bottom, there's no way to properly follow both of them. You can pretty much focus only on one edge of the screen, so you'd have to do something like glance at the another and then look at the another in order to follow both, which is pretty stupid.

So, I thought about how to improve it and came to the conclusion to drop the kanji completely (because who seriously needs kanji) and have the translation + romaji on bottom. Here's a demonstration, using gg's Macross Frontier karaoke as the base:

http://underwater.dbmd.org/bin/Macro...raoke_test.mkv (60MB)

Includes two subtitle tracks, first being the style I described and second being the original "standard" karaoke.
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Old 2008-07-05, 16:39   Link #83
cyth
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There are reasons why you'd want to position romaji away from translation lines. If I'm doing effected romaji + karaoke, it's aesthetically more pleasing to have effected text on one pile. At times you might come across an OP or ED that would have embedded kanji already; again, your personal sense of aesthetics may demand from you to separate effected text from non-effected. Also, why would you want to join romaji and translation to one side of the video only to create clutter? If you want to include subtitles to be as unobtrusive as possible, you need to dilute lines by not having them on one pile, perhaps turn on some transparency. Finally, animation art composition can force you to position subtitles differently from your standard.

I'm not sure what kind of super brain you possess, but I can't possibly follow and sing karaoke, read the song translation and follow the video all at the same time. We can now conclude that this proposition of yours wouldn't change anything. Karaoke distracts us from content, that's a given, but what exactly does your proposition improve if you can't follow the video sequence?

I don't like your writing style, btw. It seems like you're demanding standards (which nobody will follow), and you sound like a douche.
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Old 2008-07-05, 17:29   Link #84
Daiz
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I'm not demanding standards or trying to set them, since that would be just silly with fansubbing. This thread is about opinions on karaoke in fansubs, and I wanted to express my thoughts on the subject once again. My post was about "how things could be done too", and I wanted to hear what other people think about it here after talking with some people on IRC about it.

Quote:
If I'm doing effected romaji + karaoke, it's aesthetically more pleasing to have effected text on one pile.
Then use only little amount of effects or make it so that they do fit together? Surely there couldn't be that huge problem with effecting things in an aesthetically pleasing way as you make it sound.

Quote:
Also, why would you want to join romaji and translation to one side of the video only to create clutter? If you want to include subtitles to be as unobtrusive as possible, you need to dilute lines by not having them on one pile, perhaps turn on some transparency.
And you're saying having stuff all over the edges of the video (three edges covered at worst with romaji on top, kanji on right/left and translation on bottom) isn't clutter or obtrusive? Personally I might even say this way is less cluttery, since it's pretty much like having a two-line subtitle at the bottom and nothing else.

Quote:
At times you might come across an OP or ED that would have embedded kanji already
My way doesn't address this obviously, and these aren't really that usual, are they now?

Quote:
but I can't possibly follow and sing karaoke, read the song translation and follow the video all at the same time.
I don't find that really that hard with the example I provided. It is pretty hard with romaji on top and translation on bottom, though.
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Old 2008-07-05, 19:09   Link #85
dj_tjerk
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As I see it, stuff on the top of the screen is more disturbing than stuff on the bottom of the screen. I'd like your idea actually... I always watched the stuff on top, but just lately (coming across some older karaoke with both lines at the bottom, and insert kara's with only translation) i've been caring more about the translation (like, what the hell are they saying and how does the animation fit with those lyrics). Reading the translation, watching the OP animation, and seeing this big animated amount of text on top of the screen distracts me..

At the speed at which most songs are sung, I can easily read 2 lines if i want to, so that's no problem either.. Don't get me wrong though, I like pretty karaoke, watching only the nicely animated kana and hearing the lyrics... But I also like watching the translation (with or without non-animated kana) and the OP animation... Frankly, those 2 don't combine (where is my container with on-the-fly stream-on-stream overlay support).
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Old 2008-07-06, 02:50   Link #86
Mystique
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Slight curiousity:
Is there anyway to create furigana (or create a small line of hiragana ontop of the kanji you've put in, to align on top of the kanji it's representing?)

If there was such a way, then personally i'd lose romaji.
The anime is japanese, aimed at japanese audience -first and foremost- before we western audience decide to take it upon ourselves to amend it to suit us.
Secondly the song is in japanese, why lose the written script for the language this anime and song and spoken in?
Do we really need the kana? Yes - some of us studying the language or not, learn the words and song and reading from it, we do exist.
Do we really need the romaji?
No, can easily hop down to animelyrics.com if you really want to learn a japanese song and grab the romaji there. (or from so so so many other fansites)
As i'm reading, people (who cant read japanese) want to see the montage of the OP itself + translation, more than learn to sing the song.

It seems from others that you actually like/read the translation (pleasant surprise to me, but worrying now when i see the amount of guesswork/innacuracy of song translations going on post single release).

If the latest OP in naruto is anything to go buy however, already embedded kana may be more common in the future. Japanese do place karaoke on variety shows when they get guests to sing the current song they're promoting, or on special music events on TV, so I guess it's beginning to make its way to anime too.
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Old 2008-07-06, 02:57   Link #87
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
Then use only little amount of effects or make it so that they do fit together?
There you go again. And I was obviously speaking about karaoke that is heavily effected. I'm not for or against such karaoke, but I do prefer to have simple, unobtrusive or no effects at all. But this conversation isn't just about your preferences or mine.
Quote:
And you're saying having stuff all over the edges of the video (three edges covered at worst with romaji on top, kanji on right/left and translation on bottom) isn't clutter or obtrusive? Personally I might even say this way is less cluttery, since it's pretty much like having a two-line subtitle at the bottom and nothing else.
Actually, for this to work I wouldn't use kanji at all. I proposed this by thinking about your video example, since you were, after all, speaking about karaoke without kanji.
Quote:
I don't find that really that hard with the example I provided. It is pretty hard with romaji on top and translation on bottom, though.
The great thing about digital video is that you can rewind and rewatch it. This isn't TV. At least to me, reading two lines and following the video can be a bit of a struggle, and I certainly don't believe anyone, even you, can enjoy the video as you would without or very little subtitles to read.
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Old 2008-07-06, 03:00   Link #88
jfs
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@Mystique:
Aegisub has supported generating furigana for karaoke effects for about 2 years (I think it is) using some special notation in the raw timed line, and extra code for generating the effect. It should take very little effort to put it in effect-wise if you use kara-templater for generating effects.
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Old 2008-07-06, 03:04   Link #89
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
@Mystique:
Aegisub has supported generating furigana for karaoke effects for about 2 years (I think it is) using some special notation in the raw timed line, and extra code for generating the effect. It should take very little effort to put it in effect-wise if you use kara-templater for generating effects.
If you're still around in some years to come, think i'll bug ya regarding it. It's definitely something worth learning about (if not applying on too) if some people find 3 lines of text as too much clutter.
(and here was i thinking that many skip OP+ED after watching ep 4 or more...)
Thanks for that tho ^^
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Old 2008-07-06, 05:21   Link #90
dj_tjerk
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Quote:
If there was such a way, then personally i'd lose romaji.
The anime is japanese, aimed at japanese audience -first and foremost- before we western audience decide to take it upon ourselves to amend it to suit us.
Secondly the song is in japanese, why lose the written script for the language this anime and song and spoken in?
Do we really need the kana? Yes - some of us studying the language or not, learn the words and song and reading from it, we do exist.
Do we really need the romaji?
No, can easily hop down to animelyrics.com if you really want to learn a japanese song and grab the romaji there. (or from so so so many other fansites)
You can also turn that one around, saying that because they're fansubs, aimed at an international audience, one would have to lose the kana because noone can read them, and keep the romaji instead :P If you want to see the kana, you can go to any fansite with the lyrics on them, but there's no need to stick em in the fansub I guess it's just a matter of preference, and luckily for the viewers, there's enough to choose from (or steal softsubs and do it the way you see is right).

Personally, as a non-japanese speaker, I could care less about kana. Kanji are just not readable, and eventhough I learned some hiragana from watching lots and lots of karaoke, it takes me way too long to read them so the purpose of it being a karaoke is lost.
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Old 2008-07-06, 11:37   Link #91
Mystique
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Naturally, there are two sides to every coin, doi have to write both sides to state the obvious instead of my opinion, lol.
The furigana is the side that provides the hiragana, for those who can read basic japanese. Naturally it'll seem too fast at first, hence you practice no?

As for grabbing those kana lyrics, you can't, at least they copy protect like 3-4 japanese main lyric websites that i frequent and stick them in small scrolling windows so printing them, ha not likely; trust me the romaji side is a lot easier as you said, since fansubs cater for the international audience, tons of fans are prepared to share and transcribe scans for you all.

It is a matter of preference then again, we're amending an original video source from a culture that is not ours and to them karaoke on screen is as normal as their 'subs' on their variety show, karaoke in their life is just as normal as pubs in england.
To me personally since i can sing/read kanji and kana and have been learning songs from OP's and ED over the years, it seems kinda... arrogant to strip the written language for a show and song in native language that when we sing, we're speaking their language, we're stepping into their culture.
There's already a huge ass debate on why should we keep japanese honourifics and use words like 'shinagami' when we're supposed to be translating in freaking english, lol.

At least if we're that interested, (in the singing) shouldn't be at least trying to read their script too? People take a trip to japan and hop into a karaoke room, there'll be no romaji to assist you, so it's good practice for this hobby imo
(fun too, lol)

Also I've noticed, fansubbers tend to wanna respect or observe the japanese culture more than your average mainstream US industry, so i don't see why karaoke, esp karaoke should be any diff in terms of losing the original kana for the song.

That's my two pence anyways, if i had to choose two lines then it would be furi+kanji (original source) and english translation. (translated output)

Eitherway the 3 lines don't bother me personally, i focus on one depending on what i wanna know (the lyrics or the tl) and another ep, i may focus on a diff thing.
Not that big a deal tbh for 90 secs...
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Old 2008-07-06, 12:53   Link #92
dj_tjerk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
At least if we're that interested, (in the singing) shouldn't be at least trying to read their script too? People take a trip to japan and hop into a karaoke room, there'll be no romaji to assist you, so it's good practice for this hobby imo
(fun too, lol)
Damnit, I better start learning then.. karaoke rooms seem like a lot of fun :P

But leaving words untranslated but pronounceable is something different than, wtf gibberish..

Last edited by dj_tjerk; 2008-07-06 at 18:58.
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Old 2008-07-07, 19:16   Link #93
Oxtail
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There are 2 reasons I'll read the karaoke on an anime episode:

1.) To figure out what the song is about

and

2.) To see what's being sung in Japanese


That being said, it makes a lot of sense to group the romaji with the kanji away from the translation. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a vain hope of busting out some cool anime song at a KTV/noraebang/karaoke box in the future, and for that you really do need both the romaji and the kanji. Like someone said above, there's no romaji to help you out when you go karaoke. You need the romaji to figure out which syllables to sing, but you need to be able to sync it with the kanji because that's how you're going to see it at a karaoke place.

If fansub groups can go the extra mile and put small kana over the kanji, it would be a huge boon to aspiring karaoke singers, but that's more of a nice to have.
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Old 2008-07-07, 23:05   Link #94
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxtail View Post
There are 2 reasons I'll read the karaoke on an anime episode:

1.) To figure out what the song is about

and

2.) To see what's being sung in Japanese


That being said, it makes a lot of sense to group the romaji with the kanji away from the translation. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a vain hope of busting out some cool anime song at a KTV/noraebang/karaoke box in the future, and for that you really do need both the romaji and the kanji. Like someone said above, there's no romaji to help you out when you go karaoke. You need the romaji to figure out which syllables to sing, but you need to be able to sync it with the kanji because that's how you're going to see it at a karaoke place.

If fansub groups can go the extra mile and put small kana over the kanji, it would be a huge boon to aspiring karaoke singers, but that's more of a nice to have.
"small" subs render quite poorly. And increasing the size of the kanji to allow for the "kana" would further crowd the screen which we are already pretty much at limits with. If fans are hoping for something like this they should get the PV raws of the full version songs and place their hopes in someone being kinda enough to create a kara for it. This would be better in the case of ppl hoping to "bust out anime songs in a karaoke booth" since the songs there would normally be the full version anyways, and not the TV remix.
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Old 2008-07-08, 19:51   Link #95
D404
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I've said it once, i'll say it again:

Ordered Chapters.
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Old 2008-07-08, 20:31   Link #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D404 View Post
I've said it once, i'll say it again:

Ordered Chapters.
You're not the only one that's been saying it. But let's face it; It won't happen widely imo. So far I recall that only Daiz (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) has been doing that stuff, and well... try to look (or guess) at the number of encoders capable of doing it... ehrm...
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Old 2008-07-09, 07:14   Link #97
getfresh
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headlesscow has mentioned it to me as well when we were discussing changing our "way" of subbing certain elements of the scripts. I think if you are going to go with softsub you guys are right for the extras people want. But I think what I said about the kana holds true either way. Kana helpers are about 1/3-1/4 the size of normal kanji. If you have TS'd a lot you know that when splitting the subs into different areas of the screen you are pushing the limits on how large of a sub you can fit.

And kinda off topic and back on the original one of putting kana in... Just that adding the extra work of adding the kana is just a bit much imo. I can see how the kanji isn't that big of a deal to the TLers since the official lyrics are in kanji to begin with or because they need to write out the kanji to do research on the song. But asking the t/lers, timers, and typesetters to increase their work by 50% so you can learn Jap is a bit much. Not trying to be a dick, but learning Jap from fansubs isn't a good idea to begin with along with the fact we already catch shit from people for being late with releases as is. Increasing our work for something totally unrelated legibility of the subtitles or the accuracy of the translation is something that irks me.
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Old 2008-07-09, 11:52   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
"small" subs render quite poorly.
welcome to the wonderful world of high definition video, where subs are-
oh wait never mind, you probably consider HD unethical, carry on.
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Old 2008-07-09, 12:44   Link #99
getfresh
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>.> ... No I consider it unwatchable because I cannot play it on my comp. Nice attempt to troll me though. I thought I already told you I'm not doing it here anymore since it got boring. I personally don't have a major opinion on what format things are encoded. Only thing I ever said about that is I don't like leechers demanding HD releases so they can opt out of actually supporting the industry... Because, and I'm sure we can agree for once, without the monetary motivator of people going out to buy the professional licensed version because they want "higher quality" video, the companies aren't going to do it. Of course it isn't the encoders fault at all imo. These fans who love certain shows so much that they are like rabid dogs when you don't release when they deem you should have. They feel so deeply about these shows that they curse out the groups who are providing them with the ability to even see it the episodes in their language(not sure if this happens to groups other than English fansubs, just making a guess). Yet they aren't willing to spend a dime on actually buying the DVD's. R2 or not. That is what pisses me off.

As far as you encoding what ever format you feel most motivated to use is your own business. Not like it is more of less work for you to use one or the other. I just don't see a point in adding a whole new section of work to our hobbies so 97% of the ppl can go "KOOL! They have more subs that aren't even in English offered now!" .The other 3% of course using it to learn Japanese and further compound to the already slumping reliability of fansub translation accuracy.



And thanks for the heads up on the "small font" thing. I honestly would have never known. I tried increasing the resolution depth via the script in the past just to see if that made any diff, which it didn't so I figured it was just another fun thing to enjoy about textsub.
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Old 2008-10-18, 03:53   Link #100
cowteats
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Karaoke: softsub or hardsub?

I'm interested to know what anime viewers think about karaokes used in anime subs. I didn't want to post this under "Fansub groups" because I didn't want opinions from only fansubbers.

There are two main kind of karaokes used:

Hardsub: The karaoke is "burnt" into the video itself.
Pros:
-The ability to create fanciful karaokes that you see in most subs today.
Cons:
-does not allow you to turn off the karaoke subtitles.
-may cause slight video degradation(artifacts) in the opening/ending

Softsub:
Pros:
-The ability to turn off karaoke subtitles. Some people are annoyed by the karaoke blocking the op/ed and want to turn them off.
Cons:
- Almost no fanciful effects are allowed, so the karaoke will be plain.
- can only be used on h264/mkv

Hardsub karaoke is the main trend in fansubbing, but there is a shift to softsubs for some groups. What is your opinion on this?
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