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View Poll Results: Hard Work vs Talent
Hard Work 79 65.29%
Talent 42 34.71%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-22, 19:07   Link #121
Reckoner
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Basically most people who set out to achieve something for real works hard. Hard work alone only gets you so far. It's talent in the end that will distinguish you from the crowd. And if you're trying to get a job, it's all about connections.

Of course you need luck just to be born in the right circumstances in order to even think about what you want to do as well.
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:11   Link #122
Triple_R
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Yeah, I think that Reckoner succinctly nails it.

And after what I've heard, read, and watched on some international competitions (such as the Olympics and the Tour de France), I definitely think being born in certain countries gives you a leg-up on the competition.
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:26   Link #123
frivolity
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I think of talent as a ceiling and hard work as what helps you reach that ceiling. It is very difficult to breach the ceiling with hard work alone, and what talent does is raise that ceiling much more. Of course, without hard work, a person will not reach his ceiling, no matter how much talent he has. With basketball, for example, height is a key element for success. It's almost impossible for a guy who's only 5'5" or 165 cm to succeed in the NBA no matter how much he practises.

To add on to the earlier distinction between "normal" jobs and athletic or artistic ones, the former has many positions. There's millions of jobs for doctors/lawyers/engineers/accountants etc in the world, so the ceiling to do well in those occupations is low enough such that hard work can get you there. When it comes to athletes and artists, however, there's only enough market capacity for so many of them due to the competitive nature of those industries. There's only one Olympic games that everyone competes in, and there's only three or four top teams in each country for each sport. There's only a few big awards for acting, and only a few artists produce hit songs consistently. The ceiling for these sectors is thus so high that hard work alone will not be enough.
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:30   Link #124
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
well depend i guess. but however say "you can do everything if you work hard enough" i just outright lie. if you want to be a good singer but don't have talent to be it. then just forget it.
Well, that wouldn't explain the less than average singers currently making millions with the help of a little autotune
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:32   Link #125
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
I think of talent as a ceiling and hard work as what helps you reach that ceiling. It is very difficult to breach the ceiling with hard work alone, and what talent does is raise that ceiling much more. Of course, without hard work, a person will not reach his ceiling, no matter how much talent he has. With basketball, for example, height is a key element for success. It's almost impossible for a guy who's only 5'5" or 165 cm to succeed in the NBA no matter how much he practises.

To add on to the earlier distinction between "normal" jobs and athletic or artistic ones, the former has many positions. There's millions of jobs for doctors/lawyers/engineers/accountants etc in the world, so the ceiling to do well in those occupations is low enough such that hard work can get you there. When it comes to athletes and artists, however, there's only enough market capacity for so many of them due to the competitive nature of those industries. There's only one Olympic games that everyone competes in, and there's only three or four top teams in each country for each sport. There's only a few big awards for acting, and only a few artists produce hit songs consistently. The ceiling for these sectors is thus so high that hard work alone will not be enough.
Yes, I think that's a good way of putting it and explaining it.

To be fair, I think that a moderate amount of talent, and a lot of hard work can probably make someone a professional music artist, but such a person will probably never be the best musician out there.

But simply being a pro musician is a nice accomplishment in and of itself, of course.
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:42   Link #126
Zakoo
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Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
Well, that wouldn't explain the less than average singers currently making millions with the help of a little autotune
What makes singer rich right now isn't their song but all the marketting around it, as such they have no need to have talents to be sorted between themselves.

Only a few from the precedent 50 years will stay in History, Madonna and things like those won't. Music is like wine, only after 30 years you can see if it was really a good wine, if it becomes tasteless then it truly was garbbage.

Well, to return on the thread it's very hard to gauge talent and even more define it.
And somehow talent without hard work is wasted, for example absolute pitch, you can be born with it, but it won't make you a Beethoven bis, you need to go through a hellish training to increase your echoic memory otherwise it will only make your ears bleed for nothing.
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Old 2012-12-23, 12:09   Link #127
DonQuigleone
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To be honest, I don't think we should concern ourselves with "elites". The fact is, it doesn't matter how much talent you have, if you don't put in the hard work, you never get anywhere in anything. With hardwork, you may not become the next Michael Jordan, but you can still be on the Chicago Bulls.

Though some of us are just preternaturally doomed. I have weak depth perception (and am short), and so would likely not prosper in Basket ball.
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Old 2012-12-23, 14:02   Link #128
Lota
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Well, both matter I guess. If you work hard, even if you don't have the talent for something, usually you will still achieve something. If you have talent but don't work hard... I'm not sure if you'll achieve anything.

Though, honestly, if there's a competition between someone who works hard and someone who does the same + has talent... The first one's doomed

Though luck is also very important. As someone who has... little to no luck, I know what I'm talking about. You may work as hard as you like, but in order to succeed, luck has to be on your side.
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Old 2012-12-23, 18:23   Link #129
Asuras
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With hard work, you can achieve talent. With talent, you require less work, but it certainly does expedite progress if you work hard nonetheless. Ultimately I say hard work is more important, consider as I said above, you can get talent in whatever it is your working hard at.
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Old 2012-12-23, 18:33   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
To be honest, I don't think we should concern ourselves with "elites".
Why not?

The elites tend to be who inspire people, and it's certainly what kids dream of becoming.

Also, the reason I brought up elites is because of statements like this one...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
With hard work, you can achieve talent.
There's some truth to this, but there are real limits to it too. I see it in almost every pro sports competition I've ever watched. There's a certain level of talent that hard work alone will not let you achieve (because if it could, the Gretzkys and Jordans wouldn't be that far ahead of the competition).

At a certain level of competition, talent really does make the difference. It really is the primary dividing line between the elites and everyone else.

And if you're going to do a fair appraisal of hard work vs. talent, then I think this is something that should be factored into the discussion.
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Old 2012-12-23, 21:15   Link #131
Asuras
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But talent isn't some specific value. You can train talent too!

Evidently these extremely talented individuals worked hard themselves, but I doubt their natural/base level of talent could ever be insurmountable.
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Old 2012-12-24, 02:26   Link #132
Traece
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My personal view of talent is that it is more of an ability to perform a task without putting in hard work and focus. This view comes from people who are able to do things quickly but also with high quality being viewed as "talented."

For this reason I think talent is above hard work. It's a natural progression in my eyes. People who exhibit talent tend to make higher quality product because of their ability to perform quickly and thus practice the end result instead of the intermittent steps.

The word I think people most often want to use when describing a natural ability is "affinity." This is a bit of semantics I suppose, but in any case having an affinity would generally make you more capable of practicing a higher quality product as well.
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Old 2012-12-24, 09:55   Link #133
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why not?

The elites tend to be who inspire people, and it's certainly what kids dream of becoming.

Also, the reason I brought up elites is because of statements like this one...
Because Sports is a very poor reflection of reality. Most people do not work in occupations where "talent" is easily measured.

And if we really want to talk about talent, the average New Guinean tribesman can achieve feats of physical agility that would amaze the average person. Such is the outcome of a life of athleticism.

The reason most people never become Michael Jordans, is that most people don't have that single minded determination and discipline. People (quite rightly) find that dull, and spend their lives on a diverse number of interests.

For instance, I don't doubt that almost everyone could become the number 1 ranked SC2 player, but the amount of effort required is so large that by that point the game has long since gotten dull.
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