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Old 2008-03-26, 18:35   Link #221
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
That is the default state of human relations everywhere. But it doesn't describe the whole picture. Or the world would be a more peaceful place than it actually is. The tensions and hot spots in East Asia (or anywhere) aren't imagined after all.
The basic idea that the Han people are related by blood is an imagined thing that was only brought forth due to anti-Manchu feelings and Sun.


That's the unique thing about the Han: More than any other "nation" on earth, it is a nation forged upon cultural assimilation and the "Mandate of Heaven" rather similarity of blood and culture.
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Old 2008-03-26, 19:01   Link #222
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Reuters and the BBC is reporting that President Bush called President Hu personally to urge him to have talks with the Dalai Lama as he is considered moderate versus certain factions within Tibet. As we all know just how adept Bush is at diplomacy and how stubborn Hu is --- unsurprisingly Hu said, "No." (And repeated the usual stance).

Since Bush hates someone telling him "No." I imagine Hu will be replaced by Cheney operatives very soon..... and why do I imagine Bush calling President Hu -- "Huey"? I'm sure that would have helped (note: Bush has a habit of calling everyone by little sappy nicknames rather than their names or titles).

(the preceding simply reveals my exasperation with the idiots we call "world leaders". And as usual, it seems the BBC has a fairly balanced view in their collection of articles of the quandary that Chinese authorities are in, how they put themselves in it, and how both the Han in Tibet and Tibetans are having a bad day over it).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7308890.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7307495.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7305558.stm

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-03-26 at 19:12.
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Old 2008-03-26, 19:02   Link #223
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Reuters is reporting that President Bush called President Hu personally to urge him to have talks with the Dalai Lama. As we all know just how adept Bush is at diplomacy and how stubborn Hu is --- unsurprisingly he said, "No." (And repeated the usual stance).

Since Bush hates someone telling him "No." I imagine Hu will be replaced by Cheney operatives very soon..... and why do I imagine Bush calling President Hu -- "Huey"?

(the preceding simply reveals my exasperation with the idiots we call "world leaders").
Huey? You mean Huey Long?


(If you know American Politics, you'll get what I mean)
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Old 2008-03-26, 19:04   Link #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
The basic idea that the Han people are related by blood is an imagined thing that was only brought forth due to anti-Manchu feelings and Sun.


That's the unique thing about the Han: More than any other "nation" on earth, it is a nation forged upon cultural assimilation and the "Mandate of Heaven" rather similarity of blood and culture.
^Pro post!

China has never been really unified culturally. Part of what the communists did that I really, really, reallllllllly despise is that they made an attempt to homogenize the nation by trying to destroy traditions and art and replacing it with pro-state culture and art. Probably the only good thing to come out of this is that they forced PuTongHua on the people. PTH is the standardized dialect of Mandarin Chinese that people speak. Whenever you watch a Chinese television show or newscast, they're speaking PTH. It's also the linguistic lifeline between different parts of China--most educated people will speak PTH in addition to their local dialect. The other big thing they did was simplify Chinese writing, which has been a big help in increasing literacy.

Anyways, back to the point, if anything, any homogenization amongst the PRC is, as KSJ said, largely forced, either during the several invasions of China, or by the Communists.

When you get right down to it though, Han people in China place their region of origin above their race.
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Old 2008-03-26, 19:43   Link #225
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Huey? You mean Huey Long?


(If you know American Politics, you'll get what I mean)
Actually, given Bush's command of history -- I was implying Huey of "Huey, Dewey, and Louie" ......
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Old 2008-03-26, 19:49   Link #226
Kang Seung Jae
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Actually, given Bush's command of history -- I was implying Huey of "Huey, Dewey, and Louie" ......
Oh........ the Ducklings.
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Old 2008-03-26, 19:53   Link #227
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Why vs. World?

If Tibet wins, world probably won't do anything.
Same goes for China. This is their own territorial dispute, isn't it? Maybe local countries and stuff may be affected, but does the World strictly state something against/in favor of one side?
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Old 2008-03-26, 20:41   Link #228
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Why vs. World?
Oh, don't be silly. We all know "the World" means the US, and that China is a sworn pinko commie enemy of them, so it's obvious the "World" is against them.

PS: This is a joke. Laugh. It's not intended to offend anyone.
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Old 2008-03-27, 18:56   Link #229
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This paragraph reminded me of the policy of appeasement that nations took toward Germany just before World War II. (They're too powerful, nobody will risk fighting with them, just give them what they want and hope they're satisfied with it.)
I hope you're not suggesting that the hyperventilations by Western governments to what amounts to a riot suppression is the equivalent of "appeasement" towards an expansionist Germany. If you want to talk real appeasement, look at the US's response to atrocities in Saudi Arabia.

Besides which, if Hitler stopped after demanding the return of Austria, Germany might very well have been better off. It's his excess that led to the failure of appeasement. If the Chinese started demanding Vietnam again, then we'd be right to worry. But then again, the Vietnamese are quite capable of taking care of themselves, and I think the Chinese government realizes this (and the fact that China has never been very good at war).
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Old 2008-03-27, 19:07   Link #230
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
and the fact that China has never been very good at war).
Without resorting to human waves and nukes.
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Old 2008-03-27, 19:17   Link #231
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Even with human waves, the Chinese took about five times as many casaulties as enemies killed. Those are acceptable losses for national defense, but aggression? Not in a hundred years.
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Old 2008-03-27, 19:33   Link #232
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China has nukes?
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Old 2008-03-27, 19:35   Link #233
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
Even with human waves, the Chinese took about five times as many casaulties as enemies killed. Those are acceptable losses for national defense, but aggression? Not in a hundred years.
All you need to do is look at how Sui lost a million troops n a war against Goguryeo.


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China has nukes?
..................

Yes, they happen to be one of the five official nuclear powers.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:06   Link #234
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All you need to do is look at how Sui lost a million troops n a war against Goguryeo.
The Chinese are not great warriors, but they are excellent at diplomacy, culture, scholarship, trade, and politics. Goguryeo did fall in the end, and subsequent Chinese dynasties did bring the kingdoms of the Korean peninsula under their spheres of influence until the coming of the West.

The sword is strong, but the word and the coin are stronger. Gengkhis Khan was the greatest conqueror the world has ever known, but in the end he only extended the boundaries of the Chinese Empire because, simply put, Chinese civilization was the stronger of the two.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the replacement of peoples and cultures by other peoples and other cultures. It's the way by which you go about doing it that makes the difference.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:11   Link #235
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
The Chinese are not great warriors, but they are excellent at diplomacy, culture, scholarship, trade, and politics. Goguryeo did fall in the end, and subsequent Chinese dynasties did bring the kingdoms of the Korean peninsula under their spheres of influence until the coming of the West.
Which dynasties? The ones where the Northern nomads took over the "Middle" Kingdom?

The only time Korea was under the sphere of influence of the Han hinese was the Han Occupation of Manchuira. Otherwise, they were never able to claim they had authority over us.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:18   Link #236
Lathdrinor
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The nomads adopted the cultures and practices of the Han Chinese. Therefore, their rule is equivalent. Like you yourself said, China is not tied down to a single ethnic group. It is the legacy of all who now call themselves Chinese.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:23   Link #237
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
The nomads adopted the cultures and practices of the Han Chinese. Therefore, their rule is equivalent. Like you yourself said, China is not tied down to a single ethnic group. It is what the multiple groups that have come to power over the centuries has made it.
The thing is, Korea was under the Chinese sphere of influence due to military conflicts by the non-Hans.

When it comes to diplomacy, Korea was almost always stronger than China, until Neo-Confucionism made things stagnate.

In other words: To say that "China" was excellent at diplomacy, trade, and politics can be considered false. Only when they were under the rule of an foreign power, or used foreign personals, were they able to use power.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:45   Link #238
Lathdrinor
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Only the Yuan and Qing dynasties were foreign ruled. You're telling me that the Chinese only held any real power in East Asia while these two dynasties were in power? Hogwash.

The greatest expression of Chinese power was during the Tang. That was when its culture, its diplomacy, and its trade dominated East Asia. In terms of Korea, both Tang and Ming China had a profound influence on Silla and Joseon, respectively, which is simply undeniable. By comparison, Korea (under Joeson) had to be brought under Qing military rule because it was so tied to the Ming. The Koreans, by that time, were essentially shareholders in the vast Confucian system that had been built by the Tang and the Ming.

The sword forges nations and empires, but it is the word and the coin that preserve them. That's why the Yuan collapsed so quickly - by treating the Han Chinese populace as second-class citizens, it shot itself in the foot with regards to the longevity of the empire. As a result, only those parts that officially assimilated to the Han Chinese remained when Ming came along. The Qing was smarter, but still not smart enough to realize that maintaining ethnic enclaves led to fragmentation and, eventually, rebellion and weakness.

The driving force of the Chinese civilization is its "soft" power (which is distinguished from military, or "hard" power). Without that, it'd never have survived foreign invasions, not to mention become the foundations of East Asian culture, trade, and scholarship until the coming of the West.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:49   Link #239
Kang Seung Jae
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The greatest expression of Chinese power was during the Tang. That was when its culture, its diplomacy, and its trade dominated East Asia.
Try researching who did the conquers for the Tang.


Remember, I said foreign personals.
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Old 2008-03-27, 20:50   Link #240
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You're still talking about military conquests. We've already established that the Chinese are not great warriors. Your point?
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