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Old 2008-03-29, 14:25   Link #261
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think eventually China will get a democracy along the line of Singapore where the same party won 50 year straight or Russia where the house always wins. Would that satisfy everyone who wants democracy?
Ideally for the commies, that is what they would prefer, since they would still maintain control in some way via their preferred candidates. But that is not true democracy, where their grip on power is never 100% guaranteed.

Still, even in a "half-democracy", if the government really push their luck too far and take their dominance in parliament for granted, voters would just swing to the opposition en masse.

Just look at the recent election in Malaysia, where the ruling coalition took their 2/3 majority in parliament for over 50 years for granted and started pissing voters off with all sorts of scandals and divisive statements, and got trounced by an opposition that is more united as a result. Were it not for dodgy gerrymandering, they would have lost their grip on power, let alone losing their cherished 2/3 majority.

For the commies, an authoritarian rule is still more comfortable.
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Old 2008-03-29, 20:51   Link #262
lixuelai
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IMO its incorrect to label the Chinese government as communist. It is not. It stopped being communist in the 80s. It is is a totalitarian oligarchy. Communism isnt a form of government to begin with but an economic form.
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Old 2008-03-29, 22:45   Link #263
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The reason why the Chinese government must be such an a$$, being censoring media, banning foreign journalists when things get hot, maintaining one-party controlled government and such, is if they don't do so, the country will fall in utter chaos.

Let's look at China: it has a HUGE population, the rich and the poor are widely divided, Tibet and Taiwan and others want to be independent, power struggling is heavily involved inside the government, the horror of life during the 60s to 80s is still haunting a lot of the people, many western coutries and anti-China power are constantly harassing China, etc etc. It's not something a government without firm control can take care of.

And don't forget that things ARE improving now. Despite the stereotype, the government is actually quite tolerating: they KNOW they can't control everything, so they don't care what most people say or do, unless the actions are so obvious that can cause an uproar or become widely known (like the FLG). There's even a few forums dedicated to political discussions, and lots of people are badmouthing the weird stuff done by the government there, but as long as it isn't "Commies must step down!" "Hu must die!" "I'm going to burn the Tian'anmen Square down!" it will be fine.

I must admit that I always become extremely irritiated when the HK news suddenly become censored while I'm watching it when the political parts comes in, and Youtube and some other sites suddenly become banned during certain times, and all the idiotic propaganda spreading among the CCTV and other medias. But so what, the government tolerate people use proxies to surve the internet, the government don't care people pirating stuff, the government don't people downloading "banned" movies and video clips, the government don't care people badmouthing them on the internet like I'm doing know. And the country is at least comparebly stable. So in the end, everything is balanced, I guess.

BTW, Youtube is NOT banned in MOST of the time. It's just when "special events" happening then the government will ban it for a week or two.
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Old 2008-03-29, 23:15   Link #264
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heresiarch View Post
The reason why the Chinese government must be such an a$$, being censoring media, banning foreign journalists when things get hot, maintaining one-party controlled government and such, is if they don't do so, the country will fall in utter chaos.
I don't know about that. I think you're giving an excuse for the way things are. I'll go along with your statement that China is experiencing more internal strife than other developed nations, but I don't see how its current government system is the only choice for maintaining stability. How would the freedom of information presented by foreign journalism, the media, and the internet push China into chaos?

Quote:
And don't forget that things ARE improving now. Despite the stereotype, the government is actually quite tolerating: they KNOW they can't control everything, so they don't care what most people say or do, unless the actions are so obvious that can cause an uproar or become widely known (like the FLG). There's even a few forums dedicated to political discussions, and lots of people are badmouthing the weird stuff done by the government there, but as long as it isn't "Commies must step down!" "Hu must die!" "I'm going to burn the Tian'anmen Square down!" it will be fine.
Things are improving, the government gets credit. Just because things are improving doesn't mean that the government should be given a free pass on the areas where it could do better.

I've heard conflicting reports over how free you're allowed to be about discussing politics. You're claiming that there's tolerance so long as threats aren't made, which sounds reasonable. I've met a woman who had to flee the country and is currently wanted for arrest by the government simply because she exposed inhumane actions that the government was guilty of. Doesn't sound very tolerant. I understand that exposing facts like that may undermine the people's confidence in their government, but should the people be subject to a government that undertakes such actions?

Quote:
But so what, the government tolerate people use proxies to surve the internet, the government don't care people pirating stuff, the government don't people downloading "banned" movies and video clips, the government don't care people badmouthing them on the internet like I'm doing know. And the country is at least comparebly stable. So in the end, everything is balanced, I guess.
No, it isn't balanced. You're just content to have filtered internet and do what you do now, perhaps because you're focusing on how much worse it could be. But you see, it could be a lot better. Are you content to let your government determine what you should and should not be allowed to see? Why would you be - you're an adult, aren't you? If the government is hiding things because they're afraid that you won't like them anymore, well... isn't that practically an admission of guilt on their part?
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Old 2008-03-30, 00:08   Link #265
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Of course I'm not content about the censorship.

But what do you purpose to do then? Start an uprising against the government? Silently undermine the government? Work with foreign forces to overthrow the commies? Maybe I shall burn myself in front of the Tiananmen Square crying out loud "give us freedom of speech"!

I recommend you guys to put away the westerner mind before thinking about the situation of China. Or even Asia. Asian people are a lot less open minded than westerners. China has never been a democracy country while USA has been since 1800's. Surely China can follow the democracy path of Taiwan, Japan, South Korea. But consider:
1.China has awfully lot more people than them;
2.The percent of under-educated people are a lot higher than them
3.The customs amongst provinces are a lot more divided and complicated than them
4.A LOT of powers inside and outside of China want to see the downfall of the current government.

You really can't say if chaos won't follow. And if you've lived through the 70's of China, then you'll understand Chinese people DON'T want to see another chaos bring out again. To the government, making a quick-coming democracy is a gamble that the price is way too high.


I'm not defending our government, but rather explaining why they are doing this and that. Hating them is one thing, but understanding is even more important. Only after understanding there can be improvement.

BTW, personally I admire the Netherlands' government the most (I've lived in there for two years) - freedom of speech, freedom of pervertism (I hate drugs though), and you won't get caught while using P2P...

Last edited by Heresiarch; 2008-03-30 at 00:40.
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Old 2008-03-30, 01:22   Link #266
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I'm going to recommend you and others stop *assuming* people who are analyzing this situation are using a "Western" mind simply because we're identifying problems with the way the PRC government is handling it.

No sensible person is arguing for turning the floodgates of democracy on with such a large number of people. Order and stability are more important at this scale. But that does not mean that many of the actions being taken by the PRC government actually enhance order and stability -- I'd argue that the PRC government is making choices that guarantee instability will increase and it is their own unwillingness to think outside the box that ruins their day. Buy-in from the population when win-win options are provided for the average Tibetan and an understanding of how religion can be independent of the state will do more to achieve lasting stability.
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Old 2008-03-30, 01:52   Link #267
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I apologize if my "assuming" sounds that covering the people not having a western mind too. (that's why I generaly find it very difficult to discuss political things on internet without making things going hostile...misunderstandings are very easily made, and my English is far from perfect)

I do agree about your arguement about PRC's choices can cause more instability though. I have a little story: my father generally don't care about politics too much, yet a month week ago during family lunch, the HK news suddenly got *beep*ed again, and this time it really brought him to interest, and asked me to check out what's all about. It was something about US accusing China stealing satellite tech or such. The news is really nothing too harmful IMO, but being censored like that really makes irrelevant things look ugly.

In my opinion (and my best hope), the internet and improving economy of China should be the driving force of China's democracy. People are relying less and less on official media to get news (fake and stupid official news often become the laughing stock here), the flourishing economy and better education will only drive people getting more time on internet to know about the world. Thus the government would have less and less power to control over information flows. Since the PRC can't kill the internet, nor can they cut off themselves from it, they can only become more democratic and "likable", lest the whole world along their own population turn on themselves.
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Old 2008-03-30, 02:22   Link #268
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And I apologize if I sounded acidic ... I'm fighting a nasty cold virus and my social skills have taken temporary damage.

Interesting about the satellite tech... that story is actually quite old, the US whined a bit and then it was business as usual.
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Old 2008-03-30, 05:53   Link #269
Kinny Riddle
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Originally Posted by lixuelai View Post
IMO its incorrect to label the Chinese government as communist. It is not. It stopped being communist in the 80s. It is is a totalitarian oligarchy. Communism isnt a form of government to begin with but an economic form.
I agree that the CPC are only communist in name, though they continue to deny it, like someone with a split-personality disorder. They are unabashedly ruthless capitalists, their followers are in the same vein as those ruthless pioneers in the American Wild West and Australian Outback during the mid 19th century.

But you should know what we mean whenever we are referring to the authoritarian government sitting in Beijing.
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Old 2008-03-30, 11:21   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Heresiarch View Post
But what do you purpose to do then? Start an uprising against the government? Silently undermine the government? Work with foreign forces to overthrow the commies? Maybe I shall burn myself in front of the Tiananmen Square crying out loud "give us freedom of speech"!
I didn't propose to do anything. I was pointing out issues that could be worked toward. Part of the problem is that a lot of Chinese people are kept in the dark about the bad things that their government does, or they become so nationalistic that they get incredibly defensive about their government and make up justifications for the bad things that their government does. If the people don't know what's going on, how can change be made?

From what I understand it's difficult to make change in China because of the way that the political atmosphere is. Of course nobody wants a revolution - it doesn't matter if people suffered through one recently, nobody really wants one any time and it's generally something that comes about only when conditions become so bad that there's no other choice. The political setup in China seems to require that you be loyal to the ruling government, which means that nobody can speak out against what they're doing and nobody can make changes in certain areas (such as adjusting government power) without being labeled disloyal or a traitor. I'm not claiming that the "democratic" governments around the world are completely free from this, but I think there are more protections against it than what exists in China.

Quote:
I recommend you guys to put away the westerner mind before thinking about the situation of China. Or even Asia. Asian people are a lot less open minded than westerners.
Bad generalization. My Chinese-American girlfriend is quite open minded; more so than a lot of stereotypical Americans. Her family, even as far up as her grandparents (born and lived in China for a bit less than half their lives at this point, their English isn't very good) seem to be rather open-minded - at least, no more closed than a lot of stereotypical Americans.

I understand what you mean, but I don't support the way you said it. Making the comparison also makes it seem as though all westerners are totally open and free. Close-minded and ignorant people exist in many (if not all) countries, I can tell you that from first-hand experience.

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I'm not defending our government, but rather explaining why they are doing this and that. Hating them is one thing, but understanding is even more important. Only after understanding there can be improvement.
Your first post really came off as defending them. You made a statement about how difficult the conditions were, and how a government with firm control is required. You're making a justification for some of their harsher tactics. You also stated that the censorship isn't that bad and that there really is tolerance - but within reason. In doing so you're implying that even though things aren't 100% open, the limited freedoms are there and that's good enough.

I don't think many of us on this thread hate China. The US was fearful of communism back in the 1970's, but most of us here are either too young to have been exposed to the propoganda or have an open mind and weren't taken in by it. If the Chinese people are happy and prosperous, I really don't care whether they're using democracy, communism, or a benevolent dictator to achieve it. Unfortunately there are a lot of problems plaguing China and the government is to blame for a lot of them. I don't hate the Chinese government but I wish they'd take a different direction and think about their lands and their people in the long term. Censorship and limiting information can result in an intellectually blunt or ignorant population, and using harsh tactics against people makes it difficult for them to speak out and give feedback to the government - even if the government is wrong.
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Old 2008-03-30, 17:05   Link #271
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I don't hate the Chinese government but I wish they'd take a different direction and think about their lands and their people in the long term. Censorship and limiting information can result in an intellectually blunt or ignorant population, and using harsh tactics against people makes it difficult for them to speak out and give feedback to the government - even if the government is wrong.
Everyone is different, simple as that.

This is a government that forged China into what it is today (And in only 20-30 years after that cultural revolution which sent them back to the stone age) so I'd say they know very well what they are doing or needs to be done (The leaders they pick aren't guys off the street, these leaders are guys who actually graduated from university). Hu Jianto represents the parties' changing policy in picking guys who actually have a record and highly educated(and skills). So if they continue this trend they'll be bringing more and more fresh blood into the government to replace the aging communist members. IMO for change you need more younger people that are up to date with the world (So that in turn the country follows the world)

http://news3.xinhuanet.com/english/2...nt_5220576.htm

If there's going to be change though in a place like China it's going to have to be slow and done by them along with the government's blessing. The best for the west to do for China is to encourage more accountably and openess through diplomacy.
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Old 2008-03-30, 19:31   Link #272
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Put it this way:

Unless China becomes non-communist (anything, but not communism), the Chinese will never earn money.
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Old 2008-03-30, 19:38   Link #273
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As for nationalism, here in Canada, recently there was a protest and it turned violent between Chinese and Tibetan protesters. This is in Canada, where the Chinese aren't masked by any propaganda or censorship or anything like that. I think there's something significance with that.
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Old 2008-03-30, 20:07   Link #274
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Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod View Post
Unless China becomes non-communist (anything, but not communism), the Chinese will never earn money.
Or, putting thoughts into words in a similar way, if the Chinese becomes non-communist, the non-Chinese will never earn money.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Censorship and limiting information can result in an intellectually blunt or ignorant population, and using harsh tactics against people makes it difficult for them to speak out and give feedback to the government - even if the government is wrong.
For a second, I thought you were talking about US.
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Old 2008-03-30, 20:24   Link #275
lixuelai
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Geez I still dont get why people call China communist. It is not communist. It is more capitalisitc than the US. It is a totalitairan oligarchy. Communism by itself isnt necessarily bad. In fact if it worked out it would be great. However humans are selfish beings and therefore communism will never work. China abandoned that in the 80s. The main issue nowadays is because of how CAPITALIST China is while maintaining a TOTALITARIAN government. Communism has NOTHING to do with China other than the name of the ruling right now. Id laugh if I found someone in China still beliving in Communism. Communism is dead in China so stop generalizing all sorts of issues as being Communist .
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Old 2008-03-30, 21:48   Link #276
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That's because American schools do a fairly lousy job of teaching about what has been happening in China since the 1960s -- its still quite "Euro-Russian" oriented when it discusses the world at all. It is possible to get a decent understanding of China (and the world) but it is the exceptional student that ferrets it out on their own.

Lixuelai's most recent post describes the current People's Republic of China exactly: a capitalist society severely controlled by a totalitarian oligarchical government.

Strangely enough -- also the direction the US has been sliding toward over the last eight years with the "unitary executive" movement as influenced by a small oligarchy of "buddies". One can approach "fascism" from the left or the right
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Old 2008-03-30, 21:58   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Lixuelai's most recent post describes the current People's Republic of China exactly: a capitalist society severely controlled by a totalitarian oligarchical government.
I wonder if people criticzing China's policy ever think about what may happen if the government abandons its ruling style. I am not saying, it is going to be like bringing democracy to Iraq, but, at the least, the conditions in the country needs to be known well enough, so that, we should not expect the process of reaching a European kind of style suddenly creating much bigger problems, when we are suggesting what we know to be the right way to govern in that specific country.

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One can approach "fascism" from the left or the right
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Old 2008-03-30, 22:46   Link #278
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Oh, come on, it's just so much fun to call names and shout at pinko commies for being the pinko commies they are! In 2008!
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Old 2008-03-30, 22:48   Link #279
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Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod View Post
Put it this way:

Unless China becomes non-communist (anything, but not communism), the Chinese will never earn money.
They already moved from communism to state capitalism.
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Old 2008-03-30, 22:50   Link #280
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Oh, come on, it's just so much fun to call names and shout at pinko commies for being the pinko commies they are! In 2008!
I try to make sure people understand exactly what systems China practices (NOT communism), but it is fun to say "commie". It's just a fun word.

I sincerely think a fair amount of confusion comes from the fact that some people choose to use "communist" or "commie" inappropriately because they're fun to say and have a lot of social impact behind them (both humorous and otherwise). When people say "communist", it brings to mind totalitarianism and almost comical American history and propaganda. Sadly, people can't seem to understand the difference.
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