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Old 2008-08-28, 17:03   Link #1001
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Taiwan is not a part of China, China just claims it. The people of Taiwan claim independance, and we protect that independance despite China's ridiculous claim of soveranty over it. The country has its own government, its own president and its own flag.

I do not care if China claims it, the people there do not want to be a part of China and do not label themselves as such.
How do you know that all Tibetans want independence, or that all Taiwanese want independence. After all, all you watch are Western media reports.

Hong Kong has their own president and flag too, and they are under China, as well as Macau. It's called being a SAR (Special Administrative Region).
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:05   Link #1002
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
How do you know that all Tibetans want independence, or that all Taiwanese want independence. After all, all you watch are Western media reports.

Hong Kong has their own president and flag too, and they are under China, as well as Macau. It's called being a SAR (Special Administrative Region).
Most Tibetans want independance many come here to the United States to protest themselves, but we really can't do anything.

Taiwan would not seek u.s. military protection if it wanted to be part of China
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:07   Link #1003
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Most Tibetans want independance many come here to the United States to protest themselves, but we really can't do anything.
Yet the Tibetans who actually live in Tibet are quite happy with their lives.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:09   Link #1004
Zoned87
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Yes, thats why they blow up buildings, riot and try to protest.

But your communist government arrests them and censors your media to make you believe what they want.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:12   Link #1005
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Yes, thats why they blow up buildings, riot and try to protest.

But your communist government arrests them and censors your media to make you believe what they want.
First of all, I don't live in China, so it isn't 'my' communist government.

There are bound to be extremists in every part of the world, but most of the Tibetans are content with their lives with the PRC in charge.

And yes, this information came from a Western source, so you can't say it was propaganda made up by the 'evil, vile, murderous' PRC.

OT: I bet I'm gettting neg-repped to the max right now. BRING IT ON! SO WHAT IF I DON'T THINK THE PRC IS THE INCARNATION OF THE DEVIL?!
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:14   Link #1006
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I believe free media over government controlled media.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:15   Link #1007
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Um... you need to check your history books, zoned87. You're way over your head here.

Taiwan is a province of China that broke away when the old government was thrown out by the Chinese communists. The old government supporters took refuge in Taiwan and declared itself independent. They then spent the next several decades arguing over which government was legitimate (though the old government was quite corrupt itself). The old government, in fact, had overthrown the imperial court not too long before that.

The US supported the old government and Chiang Kai-shek's dominion over Taiwan, corrupt as it was, because the US was in its "Communism is automatically evil" mode during the mid-20th Century, preferring his autocratic rule. There weren't really a lot of good guys in this mess... just a mess. Taiwan has since removed most of its autocratic shackles and evolved into a somewhat open society (or corporatized capitalist society, take your pick).

What you're arguing is somewhat equivalent to, say, California seceding from the US and, in our case, that argument was already tried in the Civil War. It is true that some factions in Tibet want independence and some don't. Tibetans aren't some monolithic "all have the same opinion", any more than China is. You have to dig deeper and see who is motivated by what.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:18   Link #1008
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Taiwanese independence (as well as Taiwan for UN) was just a propaganda ploy by the previous president to attempt to stay in power. He already fooled the Taiwanese with a fake assassination plot once. He essentially encouraged nationalism while the other candidate wanted to goddamn fix the mess Taiwan is currently in.

Of course, the previous president was corrupt beyond your imagination. Watching his family on Taiwanese TV makes me rage like nothing else, because you haven't seen vain and spoilt children until you've seen his daughter.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:18   Link #1009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Um... you need to check your history books, zoned87. You're way over your head here.

Taiwan is a province of China that broke away when the government was thrown out by the Chinese communists. The old government supporters took refuge in Taiwan and declared itself independent. They then spent the next several decades arguing over which government was legitimate (though the old government was quite corrupt itself).

The US supported the old government and Chiang Kai-shek's dominion over Taiwan, corrupt as it was, because the US was in its "Communism is automatically evil" mode during the mid-20th Century, preferring his autocratic rule. There weren't really a lot of good guys in this mess... just a mess.

What you're arguing is somewhat equivalent to, say, California seceding from the US and, in our case, that argument was already tried in the Civil War. It is true that some factions in Tibet want independence and some don't. You have to dig deeper and see who is motivated by what.
I know the history behind it, but I prefer to factor modern society over dusty old books for political opinions.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:18   Link #1010
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
I believe free media over government controlled media.
Well, the free media you speak of continuously fuses fact and fiction together. See? It's not that much different from government controlled media!

As Vexx said, you and Geta Boshi both need to do some research and history reading before you make any assumptions.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:30   Link #1011
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
I know the history behind it, but I prefer to factor modern society over dusty old books for political opinions.
Stating incorrect things is a bit different than "factoring modern society" in. Taiwan was originally part of China. It was taken by the Chiang Kai-shek faction when the old Chinese government was tossed out for being totally corrupt. It doesn't take any rocket science to see how the PRC would view themselves as the "will of the people" and want Taiwan to participate in China. The modern day Taiwanese aren't adverse to rejoining China but they contend the government systems are still too different and they're rightfully suspicious of the "old communist guard" in the PRC.

As long as Taiwan and the PRC keep talking and working on joint activities, some day it may work itself out.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:30   Link #1012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Taiwan is not a part of China, China just claims it. The people of Taiwan claim independance, and we protect that independance despite China's ridiculous claim of soveranty over it. The country has its own government, its own president and its own flag.

I do not care if China claims it, the people there do not want to be a part of China and do not label themselves as such.
by that logic, you would support this as well:

http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

Quote:
We are the freedom loving Lakotah from the Sioux Indian reservations of Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana who have suffered from cultural and physical genocide in the colonial apartheid system we have been forced to live under.

We are continuing the work that we were asked to do by the traditional chiefs and treaty councils at the first Indian Treaty Council meeting at Standing Rock Sioux Indian Country in 1974.

During the week of December 17-19, 2007, we traveled to Washington DC and withdrew from the constitutionally mandated treaties to become a free and independent country. We are alerting the Family of Nations we have now reassumed our freedom and independence with the backing of Natural, International, and United States law.

We do not represent those BIA or IRA governments beholden to the colonial apartheid system, or those "
hang around the fort" Indians who are unwilling to claim their freedom.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:31   Link #1013
Zoned87
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Anyone who would want to be a part of a government without human rights would be insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
by that logic, you would support this as well:

http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
No, because those people are incapable of supporting themselves, and never were a nation to begin with.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:36   Link #1014
Hari Michiru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Anyone who would want to be a part of a government without human rights would be insane.
Anyone who would want to be part of a government that continuously invades Middle Eastern countries for 'nuclear weapons' that have never been found, to this day, would be insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
No, because those people are incapable of supporting themselves, and never were a nation to begin with.
Double standards much? You would support those poor Tibetans and Taiwanese being 'abused, beaten, killed, manipulated' by the 'evil, inhumane, corrupted, evil, power hungry, evil' PRC, but not those poor Native Americans that are also being 'treated' the same way?
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:40   Link #1015
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
First of all, I don't live in China, so it isn't 'my' communist government
I think that why you felt there are no human rights in China and Masscare was result of Disease Control
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:41   Link #1016
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
I think that why you felt there are no human rights in China and Masscare was result of Disease Control
Hm. Manipulating my words once more.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:41   Link #1017
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
No, because those people are incapable of supporting themselves, and never were a nation to begin with.
So you assert an Indian tribal nation ... was never a nation?
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:42   Link #1018
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Anyone who would want to be part of a government that continuously invades Middle Eastern countries for 'nuclear weapons' that have never been found, to this day, would be insane.
These countrys are unstable and need political reform.


Quote:
Double standards much? You would support those poor Tibetans and Taiwanese being 'abused, beaten, killed, manipulated' by the 'evil, inhumane, corrupted, evil, power hungry, evil' PRC, but not those poor Native Americans that are also being 'treated' the same way?
There aren't many native american's left around 90% of them have been absorbed into the population. Going back several generations I have a few native american ancestors myself.

Quote:
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So you assert an Indian tribal nation ... was never a nation?
Not in an official sense
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:44   Link #1019
Hari Michiru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
These countrys are unstable and need political reform.
Well, Tibet was a living hell before the PRC took over. It was unstable and needed political reform too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Not in an official sense
Nor is Taiwan.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:45   Link #1020
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Hm. Manipulating my words once more.
Sorry we dont really need to anything to enjoy your post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
you and Geta Boshi both need to do some research and history reading before you make any assumptions.
Research ? Do you even know how riduclious your theory sounds on the Masscare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
They were hogging the busiest place in Beijing, and stopped government officials from attending work. Not to mention the hygiene there was getting pretty bad too. If they were left to protest, disease would spread. If the PRC didn't crack down, then they would have a disease crisis. I must admit, sending tanks in there was extreme, but that was the thinking of the people in charge back then, and they don't do that anymore now.
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