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Old 2008-08-28, 17:47   Link #1021
Vexx
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Apparently there's some interesting definition of "official" I missed in the meeting....
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:48   Link #1022
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Well, Tibet was a living hell before the PRC took over. It was unstable and needed political reform too.
Yes im sure their horrible dictator treated them very badly.





Quote:
Nor is Taiwan.
No, it contains the decendants of the legidimate rulers of China.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:49   Link #1023
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
Yes im sure their horrible dictator treated them very badly.

Never judge a book by its cover...didn't they teach you this in school?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
No, it contains the ancestors of the legidimate rulers of China.
The legitimate rulers of China that you speak of also had massive corruption and abused human rights too.

As a tidbit: When the ROC was in control of all of China, a man could still have multiple wives. When the PRC came, they made it so a man could only have one wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Research ? Do you even know how riduclious your theory sounds on the Masscare
So you would have them continue to protest while clogging up the center of Chinese politics, and have the students slowly killing themselves?

This reason is not to redeem the government at that time, if you haven't caught on. They were wrong to use such extreme methods. I'm saying that the students weren't without fault too.

Let me state it again in bold, underline, big font and all caps, because you very much like to ignore parts of my posts:

THE PRC WAS WRONG TO USE SUCH EXTREME METHODS IN THE 6/4 INCIDENT.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:53   Link #1024
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
THE PRC WAS WRONG TO USE SUCH EXTREME METHODS IN THE 6/4 INCIDENT.
The exact same way PRC was WRONG in illegally occupying Tibet and opressing its people .
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:54   Link #1025
Hari Michiru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
The exact same way PRC was WRONG in illegally occupying Tibet and opressing its people .
Well, I finally got you to read my point, so I'll use the same method to get this one across:

TIBET HAS BEEN A PART OF CHINA SINCE THE 13TH CENTURY.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:55   Link #1026
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
As a tidbit: When the ROC was in control of all of China, a man could still have multiple wives. When the PRC came, they made it so a man could only have one wife.
And why is that a bad thing? That would be awesome.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:57   Link #1027
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
And why is that a bad thing? That would be awesome.

Uh, because that is a violation of human rights?

Now what?

The ROC is allowed to abuse human rights, but the PRC isn't?

Double standards.
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:57   Link #1028
Zu Ra
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Quote:
TIBET HAS BEEN A PART OF CHINA SINCE THE 13TH CENTURY.
Wrong China captured and illegally occupied it in 13 century too . Tibet was a free country in 6 th century did you miss that part in my previous posts
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Old 2008-08-28, 17:58   Link #1029
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Uh, because that is a violation of human rights?

Now what?

The ROC is allowed to abuse human rights, but the PRC isn't?

Double standards.
PRC abuses human rights daily, I seen plunty of it on Olympic protestors, and bullzdozing homes down for development prior to it.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:01   Link #1030
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Wrong China captured and illegally occupied it in 13 century too . Tibet was a free country in 6 th century did you miss that part in my previous posts
Tibet was a country in the 6th century, but then again, so were the nations of the Native Americans.

China captured it in the 13th century, but not illegally. It's called the right of conquest.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:01   Link #1031
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
So you would have them continue to protest while clogging up the center of Chinese politics, and have the students slowly killing themselves?

This reason is not to redeem the government at that time, if you haven't caught on. They were wrong to use such extreme methods. I'm saying that the students weren't without fault too.

Let me state it again in bold, underline, big font and all caps, because you very much like to ignore parts of my posts:

THE PRC WAS WRONG TO USE SUCH EXTREME METHODS IN THE 6/4 INCIDENT.
I agree with you that the PRC shouldn't pursue such violent methods, but you need to calm down.

Seriously, I see why they value stability highly. Never since the Qing Dynasty (up to 1912) has China enjoyed any semblance of continuous governmental stability. The region suffered at least five serious changes in its political landscape in the 80 years following. The leaders are damn scared of sudden changes because the risks and effects are staggeringly real to them. They've all lived through the past half-century experiencing this. This is something a western country would find hard to understand.

Of course, that never justifies running tanks over people, but it'd be great if everyone can see why they always keep that option on the table.

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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
No, because those people are incapable of supporting themselves, and never were a nation to begin with.
They were perfectly capable of supporting themselves, albeit not in a European fashion.

In addition, there are multiple definitions of "nation." Aside from the modern definition as a region with well-defined borders, flags, government, and military, the older definition is one defining a common people. The PRC national anthem makes reference to what's translated to the "Chinese Nation" when the actual meaning in English terms would be "Chinese People". Native American groups still follow the latter definition, and simply demand that they're respected as a people. Most of them probably understand that they can't own a border-defined country anymore in the American continents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Wrong China captured and illegally occupied it in 13 century too . Tibet was a free country in 6 th century did you miss that part in my previous posts
There is no such thing as "illegal" occupation, especially in the 13th century. The only semblance of illegality to invading other countries happened with the United Nations in 1945, when a world majority agreed that invading another country makes them sad.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:03   Link #1032
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Tibet was a country in the 6th century, but then again, so were the nations of the Native Americans.

China captured it in the 13th century, but not illegally. It's called the right of conquest.
So you support the right of conquest. Military force rules all?

The PRC also believes this
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:03   Link #1033
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
I agree with you that the PRC shouldn't pursue such violent methods, but you need to calm down.

Seriously, I see why they value stability highly. Never since the Qing Dynasty (up to 1912) has China enjoyed any semblance of continuous governmental stability. The region suffered at least five serious changes in its political landscape in the 80 years following. The leaders are damn scared of sudden changes because the risks and effects are staggeringly real to them. They've all lived through the past half-century experiencing this. This is something a western country would find hard to understand.

Of course, that never justifies running tanks over people, but it'd be great if everyone can see why they always keep that option on the table.


They were perfectly capable of supporting themselves, albeit not in a European fashion.

In addition, there are multiple definitions of "nation." Aside from the modern definition as a region with well-defined borders, flags, government, and military, the older definition is one defining a common people. The PRC national anthem makes reference to what's translated to the "Chinese Nation" when the actual meaning in English terms would be "Chinese People". Native American groups still follow the latter definition, and simply demand that they're respected as a people. Most of them probably understand that they can't own a border-defined country anymore in the American continents.
Meh, gomen. I'm just a bit mad that people automatically assume things that aren't true. *breathes slowly*

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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
So you support the right of conquest. Military force rules all?

The PRC also believes this
If the English can use it, then why not the Chinese? They did use the right of conquest around the same time period anyway.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:06   Link #1034
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
If the English can use it, then why not the Chinese? They did use the right of conquest around the same time period anyway.
That doesn't make it right.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:07   Link #1035
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
That doesn't make it right.

It doesn't, but it's part of the past. You can't change the past, and the majority of the people living in Tibet don't care, so why should you?
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:07   Link #1036
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
So you support the right of conquest. Military force rules all?

The PRC also believes this
So does most of the world throughout history including the US when its expedient ... you're just trolling and baiting at this point.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:07   Link #1037
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
So you support the right of conquest. Military force rules all?

The PRC also believes this
You forgot a few more entities - the USA, Russia, Israel, Janjaweed militias, among others. Military force rules all. Only the despair of death, destruction, and above all the loss of trade causes most countries to abandon this. Certain countries that can do without such limitations pursue military strongarming with impunity.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:09   Link #1038
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
You forgot a few more entities - the USA, Russia, Israel, Janjaweed militias, among others. Military force rules all. Only the despair of death, destruction, and above all the loss of trade causes most countries to abandon this. Certain countries that can do without such limitations pursue military strongarming with impunity.
Oh oh oh! You forgot Japan!

We can't forget about the nation that conquered half of Asia in WWII, can we?
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:10   Link #1039
Zoned87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
It doesn't, but it's part of the past. You can't change the past, and the majority of the people living in Tibet don't care, so why should you?
Media portrays a different story, but ive said enough on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
So does most of the world throughout history including the US when its expedient ... you're just trolling and baiting at this point.
People always say that, but all im ever doing is fighting for my beliefs. To be honest im really getting sick of the accusations of being a "troll" just because I don't back down from arguments.
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Old 2008-08-28, 18:10   Link #1040
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Oh oh oh! You forgot Japan!

We can't forget about the nation that conquered half of Asia in WWII, can we?
I was thinking post-1945 and more like right now, but you're correct nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoned87
People always say that, but all im ever doing is fighting for my beliefs. To be honest im really getting suck of the accusations of being a "troll" just because I don't back down from arguments.
I appreciate people who do that.

However, the world never acts on whether something is right or not. It's all very economic. What happens when a kingdom owns more territory? They get to tax more people. Lots of European back-and-forth happens over that, aside of certain very very important people feeling insulted due to some marriage or petty chess game.

The British Isles were running out of space and resources, so they embark on imperialistic expansion. The same applies to Japan.

There's no semblance of moral righteousness in any of the above.
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